Major Structural Crack in STS-133 ET Found.

[SCRawl]

Well, I was thinking more of bringing them on in an advisory capacity. that is - utilize gov't funding but let the VG guys function as consultants/designers/etc.

I bet that would be a popular move among the NASA guys. "I know that you guys have about a million years of aerospace engineering experience between you, but I've decided to bring in the Virgin Galactic engineers and designers for you to consult."

Yeah, it would go over big.

[Chardok]

Well, I was thinking more of bringing them on in an advisory capacity. that is - utilize gov't funding but let the VG guys function as consultants/designers/etc.

I bet that would be a popular move among the NASA guys. "I know that you guys have about a million years of aerospace engineering experience between you, but I've decided to bring in the Virgin Galactic engineers and designers for you to consult."

Yeah, it would go over big.

Who gives a flip? The US manned spaceflight program is all but dead until we get a new shuttle and that's a bajillion years away. we're talking about used a revamped version of the doggoned Apollo capsule as the next-generation vehicle, for pete's sake; and frankly, it seems that a more streamlined, corporate model of thinking through problems, design, and budget management would inject a much-needed dose of "Get-your-collective-space-travelling heads out of your launch-vehicle-asses-icillin" into the ass of the current "Welcome to the future c.1982" attitude which is pervasive in (At least the manned spaceflight "section") of NASA.

[Broomstick]

Wonder how close Branson and company are with getting the Enterprise up and running? I wonder because it seems like we should totally just bung his team into NASA and have them get their program whipped into shape in a few years.

NASA's spaceflight programs are far more complex, though, and prone to shifting requirements and funding.

Oh, I'm sure, but seriously, given the speed and efficiency with which Virgin Galactic has progressed surely there is some carryover that can apply to a larger program.

Well, yeah, except Rutan has a bug up his ass about NASA, and they have very different company cultures....

Personally, I'd just as soon see Virgin Galactic proceed and (I hope) definitively prove that private spaceflight is viable. Otherwise, it's just another public/private partnership that will be mired in politics and bureaucracy, and at the mercy of Congress' budgeting.

[Broomstick]

Whilst I will admit that my knowledge of this subject is not..completely robust, I would imagine Virgin Galactic could get it going faster as a private concern than as a part of the government

Unless they have anywhere close to NASA's $19bn budget, I doubt it.

With their current plans, assuming even half the people currently holding a reservation follow through, they might well net $40 billion for the next stage. So yeah, they might actually have $19 billion to throw at the problem, and maybe even twice that. Read link provided by Mayabird.

[Broomstick]

Well, I was thinking more of bringing them on in an advisory capacity. that is - utilize gov't funding but let the VG guys function as consultants/designers/etc.

Rutan tried that years ago. It didn't turn out well. Which is why Rutan is so pissy about NASA.

[Chardok]

Well, I was thinking more of bringing them on in an advisory capacity. that is - utilize gov't funding but let the VG guys function as consultants/designers/etc.

Rutan tried that years ago. It didn't turn out well. Which is why Rutan is so pissy about NASA.

Totally - but I mean, when do we get to the point where people realize that Rutan's clearly doing SOMEthing right and NASA brass needs to concede that he has something to offer? I don't want to see manned spaceflight set back 20 years because of fat old white dude penis envy.

[MKSheppard]

Jesus fuck, the next time someone brings up SpaceX, Virgin Galactic as the future of manned spaceflight, they can swallow their own tongue and FUCKING DIE IN A FIRE

Guess how many launches of rockets in the R-7 Semyorka "Seven" family the Soviets/Russians have done since the first one in 1957?

1,740

Guess how many were successful?

1,626

As for the Soyuz Spacecraft?

The Soviets/Russians have built about 144 of them over the years, and flown 105 of them manned as of 2 April 2010.

So explain to me how the fuck people like Rutan and Musk are going to:

A.) Beat the Russians on the Production Cost Curves, given that the Russians have been evolving the "Seven" and "Soyuz" together since the 1960s?

(Put simply, the more of something you produce, the cheaper it gets in regards to the first of it you build)

B.) Beat the Russians on micro-scale production costs, given that you can pay a good quality aerospace engineer/technician in Russia a hell of a lot less each year than one engineer in California?

To quote SDNW4:

The Russians looked at NewSpace and laughed. They fucking laughed.

[Shroom Man 777]

Virgin Galactic is building a teeny equivalent of a Volkswagen Beetle or a bumper car. The Space Shuttle is a hueg 18 wheeler truck. While Sarevokerritch saying the Virgin Galactic thing isn't a spacecraft is about as ignorant as saying that the Volkswagen isn't an automobile because it's not like an 18 wheeler truck, Sheppy-poohs is kinda sorta right. The private enterprises still have a long way to go.

Russians are the future of space! Or the Chineses!

[PeZook]

we're talking about used a revamped version of the doggoned Apollo capsule as the next-generation vehicle, for pete's sake;

Pardon me, but saying the Orion would've been "just a revamped Apollo capsule" is like saying the M1 tank is merely a revamped Sherman

It's moot, of course, since it's been murdered, but it was a vast improvement worthy of being called a next generation spacecraft.

[Marcus Aurelius]

While Sarevokerritch saying the Virgin Galactic thing isn't a spacecraft is about as ignorant as saying that the Volkswagen isn't an automobile because it's not like an 18 wheeler truck

Here you go. It's not really topical, but the funny coincidence is too good to be ignored; it's called Volkswagen Constellation Titan:

[Sarevok]

Virgin Galactic is not working on nor has plans for anything that qualifies as a spacecraft.

Incorrect. While the ships might not reach orbit, they have reached space.

The key is to get into orbit. There is little use for reaching the heights a 1960s sounding rocket could reach. You want to build space stations, assemble ships in orbit, go to moon or mars ? Your shuttle needs to place its cargo in orbit first. The fact that a board full of supposedly intelligent people don't realize the vast difference between high altitude and achieving orbital velocity is astonishing.

[Shroom Man 777]

The Virgin Galactic ship has reached space, even if it has not reached orbit. Ergo, it is still a spaceship, even if it is not an orbital one. Nobody said it has reached orbit, the only one who has is your brain which has apparently confused 'space' and 'orbit'. The fact that your face full of supposedly intelligent facial features doesn't realize the vast difference between entering space and entering orbit is astonishing.

Jesus Christ, why do you keep on bringing it up and blubbering about it? Why don't you form an Angry at Young Virgin Galactic Brigade? Fuck, I hope Rutan puts some VTOL rotors on SpaceShipOne just to spite you and make you menstruate.

[Phantasee]

Where do you draw the line between the end of the atmosphere and the beginning of space? What is your definition of "spacecraft"?

[PeZook]

The key is to get into orbit. There is little use for reaching the heights a 1960s sounding rocket could reach. You want to build space stations, assemble ships in orbit, go to moon or mars ? Your shuttle needs to place its cargo in orbit first. The fact that a board full of supposedly intelligent people don't realize the vast difference between high altitude and achieving orbital velocity is astonishing.

I guess NASA was full of idiots when they did their suborbital flights, then?

Your criticism would be a lot more worthwhile if VG's current generation of spacecraft was even meant to go orbital. See Shroom's post: is a VW beetle not an automobile because it can't carry 10 tonnes of cargo?

[Beowulf]

Where do you draw the line between the end of the atmosphere and the beginning of space? What is your definition of "spacecraft"?

Standard definition is 62 miles, or 100 kilometers. This roughly the point where aerodynamic lift ceases to be effective. Definitions do vary slightly, as other definitions use other criteria. US government usage is 50 miles, to gain astronaut wings.

[Shroom Man 777]

Where do you draw the line between the end of the atmosphere and the beginning of space? What is your definition of "spacecraft"?

NASA and other organizations have established an altitude boundary for space, and the Virgin Galactic ship has reached it and breached it. So it is a spaceship. Even if it has not reached orbit, which is entirely different.

Sarevokerritch was just hoping that the sheer bulk of his lipid tissues will weigh down the Virgin Galactic spaceship and prevent it from reaching the desired altitude. Imagine his disappointment when the rocket exhaust burned all those fats away.

[Sarevok]

Where do you draw the line between the end of the atmosphere and the beginning of space? What is your definition of "spacecraft"?

The exact definition is irrelevant here. What matters is that the vehicle needs to attain orbit. Otherwise it cant launch satellites or resupply the ISS or do any number of useful things.

[Stark]

Good thing it isn't designed to do that then, hey?

[Sky Captain]

If Virgin Galactic succeds in suborbital tourist flights and rises few dozen billions they might have enough money to design and build their own two stage spaceplane or fund the development of Skylon. However it is at least 10 - 15 years away even if they are succesful.

Anyway, if the world were serious about space exploreration and development of space resources we would be dusting off the Sea Dragon plans. Fancy spaceplanes are good only for people and small cargo. When some serious heavy lifting capacity is needed there is no alternative to giant rockets.

[Sarevok]

Good thing it isn't designed to do that then, hey?

But people like to talk as if Virgin Galactic can be considered for roles the shuttle once fulfilled. Its like using a hot air baloon to replace a C-130 cargo plane. Other than SpaceX not a single one of the "new space" companies has a plans for a vehicle that is useful in the slightest.

[Sarevok]

If Virgin Galactic succeds in suborbital tourist flights and rises few dozen billions they might have enough money to design and build their own two stage spaceplane or fund the development of Skylon. However it is at least 10 - 15 years away even if they are successful.

If building a reusable two stage spaceplane was that simple the Russian or American government would done that long ago. The very fact whether a reusable spacecraft can be made using present day materials and technology is an open question.

Anyway, if the world were serious about space exploreration and development of space resources we would be dusting off the Sea Dragon plans. Fancy spaceplanes are good only for people and small cargo. When some serious heavy lifting capacity is needed there is no alternative to giant rockets.

I concur. That or mass producing lots of smaller launchers to keep the costs down. Even if reusable spaceplanes work all indicators point towards immense cost that ultimately defeats the reasoning behind reusability. Maybe spaceplanes will work well if there is someone using them in far future to connect surface colonies on Mars or Titan to space. But on Earth the inherent conditions like the dense atmosphere and high gravity argue against an economical reusable launcher.

[Broomstick]

Good thing it isn't designed to do that then, hey?

But people like to talk as if Virgin Galactic can be considered for roles the shuttle once fulfilled.

Funny, that's NOT what VG is saying - they are very clear that such a vehicle is years away, at best.

You know, the 1903 Wright Flyer was a totally shitty airplane. Actually, it wasn't even a proper aircraft, more of a ground effect vehicle. The important thing about it was that it lead to better things. SS1 and SS2 are "Wright flyers" - they're stepping stones.

And frankly, I don't give a shit if YOUR definition of "space" means "orbit" - it's NOT the official definition the aerospace industry uses. If you don't have a craft capable of sub-orbital flight that can keep people alive inside and is controllable by a pilot you won't make orbit anyhow. It's a pity you're too stupid to understand why sub-orbital is a necessary step along the way.

VG is using a very different approach than NASA, the Russians, the Chinese or anyone else. Laugh at them if you will. But don't get pissy at them because, being an entirely private enterprise it's not costing YOU any money for them to play around and experiment, so why are you all butt-hurt about it?

[Phantasee]

Where do you draw the line between the end of the atmosphere and the beginning of space? What is your definition of "spacecraft"?

The exact definition is irrelevant here. What matters is that the vehicle needs to attain orbit. Otherwise it cant launch satellites or resupply the ISS or do any number of useful things.

Your exact definition is relevant because that's exactly what I asked for. You're saying Virgin hasn't made a spaceship, and I want to know why that is, which I can't figure out unless I know what definition you're operating off of.

[Alyeska]

The exact definition is irrelevant here. What matters is that the vehicle needs to attain orbit. Otherwise it cant launch satellites or resupply the ISS or do any number of useful things.

No. The exact definition is not irrelevant. A spaceship is something that goes into space. Period. Ships that reach space but do not attain orbit are important stepping stones.

Mercury Redstone 3

[Alyeska]

Good thing it isn't designed to do that then, hey?

But people like to talk as if Virgin Galactic can be considered for roles the shuttle once fulfilled. Its like using a hot air baloon to replace a C-130 cargo plane. Other than SpaceX not a single one of the "new space" companies has a plans for a vehicle that is useful in the slightest.

No. People are not. People are talking about Virgin Galactic helping expand the technology and push the private sector into space travel.

The Wright Brothers didn't start with a C-130. You have to start somewhere.