Civilian trial of GITMO detainee results

[ShadowDragon8685]

Because he mentioned "compensation like an American would receive," to which I felt obliged to point out that as far as I knew, Americans were entitled to all of jack and shit if their government abused them, and in fact did not even have the right to attempt to attain remedy in a court of law.

I like the smell of changing goalposts in the morning. Also:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... oding.html

0.06 seconds of googling, bub.

Please note the operating words, "as far as I knew." Which remains true, I've been told by everybody I know that you can't actually sue the government. Perhaps they're wrong, in which case, yes, everybody who was falsely detained should damn well get a shot at hauling an agent of the federal government into court.

It's easy to say that. But what happens the first time one of these guys funnels all that compensation money to a terrorist organization, straps a bomb to his chest and blows up a crowd of people somewhere after a rousing chorus of 'Allah Akbar?'

Your fucking problem for putting Bush in charge 1.5 times. It's called taking responsibility and owning up to your failures. That's what separates the children from the grown-ups.

Wait, what? I didn't vote for him. In fact, the first time he was "elected," I wasn't even eligible to vote, and I sure as hell didn't vote for Bush the second time the matter came up. A lot of people didn't vote for him. And those who did vote for him aren't actually responsible for his crimes whilst in office.

The failures of government are not the failures of the people, and the responsibility for those failures does not include "death by suicide bomber" in the list of appropriate punitive measures in any event. Yet, that is what would be happening; innocent people would be dying, how can you possibly suggest that it is justice to give a man with every reason to commit such an act the means and opportunity to do so?

[Metahive]

Please note the operating words, "as far as I knew."

I repeat, 0.06 seconds of googling.

Wait, what? I didn't vote for him.

Irrelevant.

The failures of government are not the failures of the people, and the responsibility for those failures does not include "death by suicide bomber" in the list of appropriate punitive measures in any event.

Putting an incompetent, criminal shithead in office twice very well is a failure of the people. The president is supposed to be acting on behalf of all US citizens, remember? That's how a representative democracy works. Who knew that being a citizen also came with a number of duties and that there are sometimes consequences to careless actions! You better now prepare to face them and stop with the whining and the lazy attempts to shirk responsiblity. You do have the right to defend yourself against any attempt of ex-detainees seeking vengeance violently, but for sure not before they actually do so, not if you wish to preserve at least a tiny pretense of justice.

[Thanas]

Continue with civilian trials, compensate the guys who are wrongfully accused/held/tortured (and by compensation I mean the kind of money an american citizen would get), make a formal apology and vigorously prosecute the Bush junta and the CIA/other scum.

Of course, none of that is going to happen.

*snip whining*

WTH? You ask me what would have to happen to make this right and then you proceed to critize this situation because it is an ideal world? When I even said that there was no chance of it happening? Does the concept of a hypothetical escape you?

[ShadowDragon8685]

Please note the operating words, "as far as I knew."

I repeat, 0.06 seconds of googling.

Forgive me if my first response to recalling something I've had drummed into me forever isn't to immediately doubt it and google it.

For that matter, the federal courts have no actual ability to compel the government to do anything. "The supreme justice has made his decision. Now let him enforce it," anyone?

Wait, what? I didn't vote for him.

Irrelevant.

No, it isn't. You're telling me that because of something some shitheads did, I, and every other single three hundred million-some Americans, should consider it justice to let a bunch of hate-filled men have the chance to blow me or them up. That's insanity.

The failures of government are not the failures of the people, and the responsibility for those failures does not include "death by suicide bomber" in the list of appropriate punitive measures in any event.

Putting an incompetent, criminal shithead in office twice very well is a failure of the people. The president is supposed to be acting on behalf of all US citizens, remember? That's how a representative democracy works. Who knew that being a citizen also came with a number of duties and that there are sometimes consequences to careless actions! You better now prepare to face them and stop with the whining and the lazy attempts to shirk responsiblity. You do have the right to defend yourself against any attempt of ex-detainees seeking vengeance violently, but for sure not before they actually do so, not if you wish to preserve at least a tiny pretense of justice.

I have a better idea, how about we gave them a shit-load of cash and drop them in your homeland?

You're out of your fucking mind if you think it's remotely just to give a bunch of people with no ties to any community whatsoever the means to commit heinous crimes and tell them "since some assholes a while back did horrible things to you you, you're free to go, and don't go and commit a terror attack now or we'll lock you up again."

That's not justice, that's heinous negligence. And, as I said, the very first time anything like that actually happens will also be the last time your idea of justice is seen in this country, as the rest of the ex-detainees are simply assassinated, either by the government or vengeful mobs of vigilantes, and you can kiss goodbye the laws that came to the ridiculous conclusion that handing a man with motive to commit a terror attack a shitload of money and releasing him into the country free as a bird was the just thing to do.

Which would be a gross miscarriage of justice on everyone else down the line. That's no answer whatsoever, and even I wouldn't tolerate giving people we know to actively hate and want to harm this country a shitload of money and free entry into the country. That's not an acceptable solution, under any definition of justice. Try again.

Continue with civilian trials, compensate the guys who are wrongfully accused/held/tortured (and by compensation I mean the kind of money an american citizen would get), make a formal apology and vigorously prosecute the Bush junta and the CIA/other scum.

Of course, none of that is going to happen.

*snip whining*

WTH? You ask me what would have to happen to make this right and then you proceed to critize this situation because it is an ideal world? When I even said that there was no chance of it happening? Does the concept of a hypothetical escape you?

Because your "ideal" world doesn't look very ideal to me, if it's in-line with Metahive's idea of an ideal world. In fact, it seems to me that it's only ideal from the perspective of someone who's in the camps.

So, unless you simply don't care about the potential fallout from handing all the detainees they can't nail on any legitimate charges a huge cash settlement and letting them go free to do what they want, your solution seems very un-ideal. I was hoping you had something else in the works, some hypothetical means of handling the situation that served justice for everyone, not just the guys in the camps.

[Thanas]

WTH? You ask me what would have to happen to make this right and then you proceed to critize this situation because it is an ideal world? When I even said that there was no chance of it happening? Does the concept of a hypothetical escape you?

Because your "ideal" world doesn't look very ideal to me, if it's in-line with Metahive's idea of an ideal world. In fact, it seems to me that it's only ideal from the perspective of someone who's in the camps.

So, unless you simply don't care about the potential fallout from handing all the detainees they can't nail on any legitimate charges a huge cash settlement and letting them go free to do what they want, your solution seems very un-ideal. I was hoping you had something else in the works, some hypothetical means of handling the situation that served justice for everyone, not just the guys in the camps.

I am sorry, I thought you meant "the morally right thing to do" with "making it right" instead of "politically expendable stuff which serves all parties".

What justice do the CIA torturers deserve in your opinion other than the justice of a fair and impartial trial?

[Phantasee]

Why would Thanas have anything "in the works," anyway? We don't write policy as our day job

[Thanas]

Why would Thanas have anything "in the works," anyway? We don't write policy as our day job

*not yet, anyway*
< points to avatar.

[ShadowDragon8685]

I am sorry, I thought you meant "the morally right thing to do" with "making it right" instead of "politically expendable stuff which serves all parties".

What justice do the CIA torturers deserve in your opinion other than the justice of a fair and impartial trial?

None. In that, that is exactly what should be happening to those people; as I said previously, I think everybody from the guy with the pitcher of water up to Georgie the Stupider ought to be being hauled up on charges.

However, it's also not justice to give angry people with motive the means to commit violence against innocent people, either. In fact it's negligence most heinous.

(Also, I think the word you wanted was "expedient," not "expendable".)

[Thanas]

None. In that, that is exactly what should be happening to those people; as I said previously, I think everybody from the guy with the pitcher of water up to Georgie the Stupider ought to be being hauled up on charges.

However, it's also not justice to give angry people with motive the means to commit violence against innocent people, either. In fact it's negligence most heinous.

So what do you propose? Lock them up for the "Greater Good"? [/Bush]

Oh, and justify the assumption that many of them would be a threat.

[Phantasee]

Thanas, if I was locked up for a large portion of my young life and was tortured to confess to something I didn't do, I think I would probably be a threat to the US.

[Thanas]

Thanas, if I was locked up for a large portion of my young life and was tortured to confess to something I didn't do, I think I would probably be a threat to the US.

So why haven't the guys who had exactly that done to them and who were extradited to Germany not bombing US citizens? Why weren't Jews killing Nazis en masse after the liberation?

[Stark]

I think to many people, 'saying mean things about the US' is a threat. Remember how Shep keeps going on about the guys who were released and immediately joined terrorist groups?

[ShadowDragon8685]

So what do you propose? Lock them up for the "Greater Good"? [/Bush]

I don't know. That's why I asked you!

Oh, and justify the assumption that many of them would be a threat.

If you've got a guy who was grabbed in the middle-east for being fingered for being associated with terrorist groups, flew him to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, then out of the blue tell him "whoops, we're sorry a bunch of our countrymen did that to you. We can't send you home since your homeland will have you shot, so here's twenty million dollars and US citizenship, play nice now," what exactly do you think they're going to do?

Possibly, they're the saintliest guy around, who can forgive everyone from the scumbag who fingered him as a terrorist to get a quick payday, to the guys pouring water into his face to Bush the stupider, donate the money to a charity and go on to live an ascetic life preaching tolerance and unity.

Or, possibly, some in there actually were terrorists against whom all the evidence is inadmissable, and can hardly believe his good fortune in the great satan justice system handing him the means to contribute to the cause and putting him in the position to get himself an express ticket to his 72 virgins; he funnels that $20,000,000 to a "charity" that goes straight into a terrorist war-chest, straps on a bomb and blows up a crowd of people.

All it takes is one incident to send everything into the pile of shit.

Thanas, if I was locked up for a large portion of my young life and was tortured to confess to something I didn't do, I think I would probably be a threat to the US.

So why haven't the guys who had exactly that done to them and who were extradited to Germany not bombing US citizens? Why weren't Jews killing Nazis en masse after the liberation?

The guys you're talking about have things to live for; family, friends, a homeland to love, goals to pursue.

I'm worried about the guy who has things to die for: fame, martyrdom, glory, promises of the afterlife. Especially guys with nothing to live for - no living familiy, no prospects, a broken homeland; shit like that. Someone with nothing to lose by dying, and (in their own mind at least) everything to gain by dying gloriously.

[Thanas]

If you've got a guy who was grabbed in the middle-east for being fingered for being associated with terrorist groups, flew him to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, then out of the blue tell him "whoops, we're sorry a bunch of our countrymen did that to you. We can't send you home since your homeland will have you shot, so here's twenty million dollars and US citizenship, play nice now," what exactly do you think they're going to do?

Possibly, they're the saintliest guy around, who can forgive everyone from the scumbag who fingered him as a terrorist to get a quick payday, to the guys pouring water into his face to Bush the stupider, donate the money to a charity and go on to live an ascetic life preaching tolerance and unity.

Actually, that is exactly what happens in the majority of cases. The worst some of them have done so far is to sue the US government. OH NOES, the horror.

All it takes is one incident to send everything into the pile of shit.

We already got two incidents. But that are two incidents over the past years, a neglectible percentage.

The guys you're talking about have things to live for; family, friends, a homeland to love, goals to pursue.

No, they don't in many cases (especially the Uighurs who were sent to Germany).

I'm worried about the guy who has things to die for: fame, martyrdom, glory, promises of the afterlife. Especially guys with nothing to live for - no living familiy, no prospects, a broken homeland; shit like that. Someone with nothing to lose by dying, and (in their own mind at least) everything to gain by dying gloriously.

So what? The FBI cannot keep tabs on those cases? What, you think they are suddenly going to drop off the map? Oh, btw, if you had been waterboarded for seven years you would be a broken mess. Certainly not going on a revenge fantasy you see in the movies.


Again, look at the hundreds and thousands of jews who had barely survived the Nazis. Who had lost all their belongings and all of their families, who had been mistreated and had been subject to humiliation and torture. How many of them went on a revenge spree? And how many simply integrated back into society or fled to Israel? It surprises you to know that the majority of german KZ survivors simply went back to their lives or emigrated to Israel. To my knowledge, not one of them took a walther and went on a killing spree, though they arguably had way more reasons to do so than the Gitmo guys have.

[Metahive]

Forgive me if my first response to recalling something I've had drummed into me forever isn't to immediately doubt it and google it.

Your experiences here should have to told you that "as far as ShadowDragon knows" is about the distance between your brain and the boogers in your nasal cavity.

No, it isn't. You're telling me that because of something some shitheads did, I, and every other single three hundred million-some Americans, should consider it justice to let a bunch of hate-filled men have the chance to blow me or them up. That's insanity.

Contrary to what Republicans and you think, the President is supposed to be acting on behalf of and for all citizens not just his electorate. Tough shit. Also, I never said it was justice for them to come back and try to blow you up, I said it was justice to not keep them detained for something they might do in the future, you blockhead.

I have a better idea, how about we gave them a shit-load of cash and drop them in your homeland?

How about your own failures are none of our fucking business you shit-spewing monkey anus? By the way, that's what Obama is doing right now anyway, trying to foist them upon other countries to get them out of the US' hair. YES WE CAN...shirk responsibility!

The rest of your whining is just more of the same. Next time you reply to me I await at a minimum you frain from distorting what I say. Keeping people locked up because they might try something illegal against you in the future is not justice! There, obvious enough now?

[ShadowDragon8685]

Your experiences here should have to told you that "as far as ShadowDragon knows" is about the distance between your brain and the boogers in your nasal cavity.

You know what? Take that attitude and ram it somewhere. I'll give you three guesses as to where exactly you're invited to ram it.

Contrary to what Republicans and you think, the President is supposed to be acting on behalf of and for all citizens not just his electorate. Tough shit. Also, I never said it was justice for them to come back and try to blow you up, I said it was justice to not keep them detained for something they might do in the future, you blockhead.

Except that's what you were saying, asshole. You were saying it was justice to give them that chance to make that attack.

The rest of your whining is just more of the same. Next time you reply to me I await at a minimum you refrain from distorting what I say. Keeping people locked up because they might try something illegal against you in the future is not justice! There, obvious enough now?

Feel free to fuck yourself by the autoerotic method of your choice. Failing that, howsabout you come up with a practical solution that isn't tyrannical (keep them locked up forever/shoot them all) and isn't fucking negligent (hand them a gigantic check and free entry into the United States.) Because I fucking can't. I've been turning this one over in my head since this post went up.

[Metahive]

You know what? Take that attitude and ram it somewhere. I'll give you three guesses as to where exactly you're invited to ram it.

Your anus? No, sorry, I'm not into that. I'm terribly, terribly sorry that you find the thought of doing research before spouting off so horribly offensive.

Except that's what you were saying, asshole. You were saying it was justice to give them that chance to make that attack.

No, I didn't you lying piece of bumshit. I said it was justice to not keep them detained before they've done or attempted anything illegal. You know, the whole thing about not punishing people for things they haven't done? A fundamental pillar of justice? It's not my fault this thought overwhelms the two dozen neurons left in the grey snot you call your brain.

Because I fucking can't. I've been turning this one over in my head since this post went up.

Too easy.

[FTeik]

Thanas, if I was locked up for a large portion of my young life and was tortured to confess to something I didn't do, I think I would probably be a threat to the US.

So why haven't the guys who had exactly that done to them and who were extradited to Germany not bombing US citizens? Why weren't Jews killing Nazis en masse after the liberation?

I would think the extradited Uigures are still trying to get their act together/their life back.

As for the Jews not killing Nazis en masse, the comparison doesn't work. Nazi-Germany had lost the war, millions of its citicens were killed, most of the towns lay in ruins and it lost lots of territory. Aside from that the remaining leadership (and lots of the mid-level bureaucracy) was put on trial, sentenced and executed or imprisoned.

So maybe the surviving Jews considered their pound of flesh gotten (in addition to the money the government of the BRD spent on them for the next decades as compensation).

I don't know about you, but I don't see anything of that happen to the US in the near future.

@ShadowDragon8685: That is a risk a society trying to be free and just has to take, because if we take your logic to its logical extreme the moment a lunatic like Sarah Palin becomes President of the US and by consequence gets control over its nuclear arsenal the rest of the world would be justified to attack the US in a pre-emptive strike. Just in case.

And lets also put the threat into perspective. 9/11 was the worst terror-attack in recent history with thousands of deaths. Nothing has even come close to that in even a decade, thanks to most of the terrorists being morons or the good work of police- and intelligence-agencies. Meanwhile every year thousands, if not ten-thousands of people die because of boozing, smoking, by mistakes made by doctors, in car-crashs and so on.

Do we get hysterical over those deaths, too and take extreme measures to provent them?

[Thanas]

As for the Jews not killing Nazis en masse, the comparison doesn't work. Nazi-Germany had lost the war, millions of its citicens were killed, most of the towns lay in ruins and it lost lots of territory. Aside from that the remaining leadership (and lots of the mid-level bureaucracy) was put on trial, sentenced and executed or imprisoned.

And? Most of the KZ guys got away with it. As did most of the bureucracy. So if you want to argue that justice was served, that does not fly. Besides, the jews are just one example. I could easily go with the boers after the British horded them into KZs or any other group in history that went on alleged revenge sprees after having had atrocities done to them.

The burden of proof is not for me to show that the released will not committ terrorist acts, the burden of proof is on the other side to show that they will.

[Steel]

Shouldn't this guy be out by 2020 at the latest, and actually be elligible for parole immediately, seeing as he has already served 10 years of his 20 year sentence and wasn't actually convicted of murder?

[FTeik]

As for the Jews not killing Nazis en masse, the comparison doesn't work. Nazi-Germany had lost the war, millions of its citicens were killed, most of the towns lay in ruins and it lost lots of territory. Aside from that the remaining leadership (and lots of the mid-level bureaucracy) was put on trial, sentenced and executed or imprisoned.

And? Most of the KZ guys got away with it. As did most of the bureucracy. So if you want to argue that justice was served, that does not fly. Besides, the jews are just one example. I could easily go with the boers after the British horded them into KZs or any other group in history that went on alleged revenge sprees after having had atrocities done to them.

The burden of proof is not for me to show that the released will not committ terrorist acts, the burden of proof is on the other side to show that they will.

The fact, that a lot of mid-level Nazis escaped, doesn’t change the fact, that at least some kind of justice was served.

And while I can’t tell about members of the Boer or other groups suffering from atrocities taking revenge, I doubt much of it would have been documented anyway. History is written by the winners after all.

To give you one example: The only sources we have about the atrocities the romans commited during their invasion of Gaule are Caesar’s “De Bello Gallico”. I doubt, those few gaules left after the romans were done with exterminating and enslaving them were important enough to write home about, if they tried to get revenge. Most likely such incidents would have been documented as limited enemy-contact, robbery- and murder in case of civilian victims, or just barbarism, but not acts of revenge. A court-file would probably read: Roman merchant Tullius Varus murdered by Obelix, a slave he purchased in Gaule. Sentence: Crucification.

Concerning the jewish revenge for the holocaust, entering the words “Jews”, “Revenge” and “Holocaust” delivered the two following links on the first two pages (among a lot of garbage about Terantino’s “Inglorious Bastards”). I don’t have the knowledge to tell, if they are genuine or the product of holocaust-deniers and Nazi-apologists.

http://www.suite101.com/content/jewish- ... st-a307327
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/je ... squads.htm

However since one of them is about this fellow: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Morel
and he seems to be for real, there are obviously jews, who got revenge on germans. Of course he could have also been just a simple psychpatic sadist and mass-murderer, who happened to be jewish.

[Thanas]

To give you one example: The only sources we have about the atrocities the romans commited during their invasion of Gaule are Caesar’s “De Bello Gallico”. I doubt, those few gaules left after the romans were done with exterminating and enslaving them were important enough to write home about, if they tried to get revenge. Most likely such incidents would have been documented as limited enemy-contact, robbery- and murder in case of civilian victims, or just barbarism, but not acts of revenge. A court-file would probably read: Roman merchant Tullius Varus murdered by Obelix, a slave he purchased in Gaule. Sentence: Crucification.

Trust me, Gaul really is a bad example for the kind of thing you want to claim.

As for the Jewish "revenge" stuff - even if we accept these claims at face value (which I will not do), they still rather prove my point - that over 99% of the survivors did not join revenge groups. Now, are we done nitpicking here?

[ShadowDragon8685]

The worry isn't the 99% who don't go out and seek vengeance, the worry is the 1% who will.

All it would take to send this country into a shitstorm of - and I hate to say this - near-permanent Republican lockdown - would be one genuine instance of a suicide bomber released from our custody who goes on to successfully bomb anywhere on American soil.

They would be able to see "Look what Liiberal Justice has wrought; dead Americans, dead Americans, dead Americans, bombing on our soil, bombing on our soil, our homeland in the grip of middle-eastern terror, because those liberal elites let this man walk free."

You might as well kiss habeas corpus and proscriptions against coercive evidence-gathering goodbye. They'd be effectively null and void the next day, and quite likely would be actually nullified within short order.

One guy - one guy, with a thirst for vengeance, or Allah, or just plain un-fucking-hinged, gets set free by us and comes back to bite us in the ass like this, and you might as well kiss any hope of the United States being any more civilized goodbye. We're talking major, major backslide here.

[Metahive]

The worry isn't the 99% who don't go out and seek vengeance, the worry is the 1% who will.

Yep, all those people who've been mistreated for 7-8 years will surely pose a formidable threat to the security of US citizens. Have you noticed that since 9/11 Al-Quaedas efforts at terrorizing the US have been less than impressive? What additional threat could a bunch of physically, mentally broken and impoverished individuals possibly pose?

All it would take to send this country into a shitstorm of - and I hate to say this - near-permanent Republican lockdown - would be one genuine instance of a suicide bomber released from our custody who goes on to successfully bomb anywhere on American soil.

They would be able to see "Look what Liiberal Justice has wrought; dead Americans, dead Americans, dead Americans, bombing on our soil, bombing on our soil, our homeland in the grip of middle-eastern terror, because those liberal elites let this man walk free."

You might as well kiss habeas corpus and proscriptions against coercive evidence-gathering goodbye. They'd be effectively null and void the next day, and quite likely would be actually nullified within short order.

One guy - one guy, with a thirst for vengeance, or Allah, or just plain un-fucking-hinged, gets set free by us and comes back to bite us in the ass like this, and you might as well kiss any hope of the United States being any more civilized goodbye. We're talking major, major backslide here.

Woa woa woa, hysterical much? Calm down, bub!

I'm sorry but "my livid fantasies draw a horror scenario of total republican dominance" doesn't quite justify punishing people for things they haven't done. Appeal to Consequences and all that. It's not those people's fault if your populace is so stupid and sheepish that they might go totalitarian police state in a fit of irrational hysteria at the merest of provocations. Despite experiencing several disappointments, I also still have a bit more trust in the mental clarity of US Americans.
That argument can be used argue against releasing anyone from prison ever too.

[The Yosemite Bear]

actually while nothing at the federal level, there have been enough false imprisonment cases that many states do offer compensation for the wrongly accused, and if we have held Africian child soldier, torturer/rapists to proper standards of international law, we should also hold the previous administration to that standard.