Air controllers allegedly sick, Spanish airspace closed

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28846
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest

Re: Air controllers allegedly sick, Spanish airspace closed

Post by Broomstick »

Murazor wrote:I really cannot think of any other professional group that would dare to try to get away with this kind of shit.
Sea Skimmer wrote:
Psychic_Sandwich wrote:Well, the thing is, they can't reasonably punish a significant number of them, since they're so vital.
Not true. Ronald Reagan fired 11,000 out of roughly 13,000 FAA air traffic controllers in 1981 after they went on a strike which was explicitly illegal. The system was reestablished very quickly using the non strikers, new hires and military controllers. Since basically all air traffic control in the world is done in English the Spanish would be able to hire people from anywhere in the EU very easily as replacements.
The US air traffic controllers tried to strike 1981 and got their asses handed to them. Fired and banned from all Federal employment for life (partially rescinded in 1993 by Clinton).

I should also note that it cut US flights by 50% for the short term, and it took 10 years for the fired controllers to be enitrely replaced and the system to return fully to normal. There are consequences to summarily firing everyone. So I wouldn't exactly say that the "system was reestablished very quickly", even with a pool of non-striking ATC who weren't fired remaining. A "new hire" for ATC takes three years to train, unless they have prior experience from, say, the military.

I'm also going to point out that, unlike Europe, the US doesn't require ATC to participate in all flights. A LOT of flights in the US require no ATC contact whatsoever, so in the US some people who would normally use ATC were able to opt to fly without it. (On any given day, up to 80% of US flights are not required to use ATC, though many opt to do so. All airline flights use ATC, but airline flights are only a minority of US air traffic. I'm not sure how much of European traffic is airline vs. non-airline) While I am not an expert on European flight regulations, my current understanding is that the European system would not allow for that.

In other words, while there are some parallels between Spain 2010 and US 1981 the two situations have some very significant differences.
Spain cannot have more then a small fraction of the air traffic controllers the US does because it’s absurdly smaller,
Note again - due to some significant differences between the US air traffic system and the European one, Spain might actually require proportionally more ATC staff than a similar sized region of the US.
Keevan_Colton wrote:Am I the only one that really doesn't like the idea of massive amounts of overtime for air traffic controllers?
Nope - I find it pretty alarming. That's a difficult, high stress job at major hubs (Madrid, for instance) and you really don't want fatigued people in that position. However, I don't know what the normal Spanish air traffic control week is, or just how much overtime we're talking about here. Knowing that might be the difference between being mildly alarmed and greatly alarmed.
Murazor wrote:-They want to retire with their full salaries at the ripe old age of 52 and get paid at overtime rates, if they have to call them back because of sudden personnel shortages.
I'm just going to note that in the US air traffic controllers are forced to retire at 56. I am unable to find retirement ages for ATC in other countries, however, this is an area where historically people have been retired earlier than many other professions. This may be at odds with a shortage of personnel, and personally I think such relatively low ages for retirement should be reviewed across the board. Just keep in mind that dropping the retirement age to 52 in this particular case may not be as much of a drop as people might assume.

A lot of air traffic controllers don't make it to retirement due to the level of physical fitness required for the job. ATC personnel actually have to pass a stricter standard to work than I had to in order to get a pilot's license. If their fitness slips - all it takes is a little high blood pressure that isn't quickly controlled, as an example - they're out of a job and a career.
Murazor wrote:The legal framework was provided by a 1998 decree that got modified last year, in part because of the controllers refusing to change their positions in the negotiation. The old entry requirements included a college degree of some kind and perfect pronuntiation of English. Now they are accepting applicants with just high school diplomas and good but not perfect (accented) English, since the reformed law contemplates language training after getting started with the job.
Perfect English? Even the US doesn't require perfect English, and I've heard quite a few ATC over here with detectable accents. Understandable English, yes (specifically, the sub-set known as "aviation English") but are you sure the requirement is "perfect"?
Marcus Aurelius wrote:However, illegal strikes could be a legal reason for termination, but probably only if they last very long or are repeated. Anyways, that was the case even in the case of the US FAA strike in 1981. I don't really know but I doubt Ronnie could have fired them if they had gone on a legal strike instead, but not knowing their terms I don't know if they even had that option.
For the PATCO strikers in 1981 there was no legal way for them to strike. They belonged to a category of government employee that, while allowed to bargain collectively, had no legal right to strike.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice
Post Reply