Bin Laden Raid Use Of "Geronimo" Inappropriate?

[Broomstick]

Definitely inappropriate. As for why, just ask yourself if the codename of "Washington" would have been appropriate or whether you would not have felt unease with that.

I don't see where I would find the use of the word "Washington" to denote success in a military operation offensive.

[SVPD]

The reason for yelling "Geronimo" when jumping from an aircraft is because of Geronimo's jump off Medicine Bluff into a river at what is now Ft. Sill/Lawton, OK to escape the Army.

[Thanas]

Definitely inappropriate. As for why, just ask yourself if the codename of "Washington" would have been appropriate or whether you would not have felt unease with that.

I don't see where I would find the use of the word "Washington" to denote success in a military operation offensive.

What makes it differet from Geronimo?

Both are names of dead people.

[FSTargetDrone]

There are some Natives who want no one outside of Natives to use any term or word or cultural item whatsoever that had a Native origin. This would cause massive confusion as we have to give back the names of major cities like "Chicago" and the names of states like "Dakota". I guess they want to repossess all the Z. mays as well, though where they'll put it all I don't know. No more canoes or kayaks without special permission. Some folks got bent out of shape when they put Sacagawea on a dollar coin because that was somehow exploiting her.

I see.

In terms of offensive uses of Native likenesses, this comes to mind as being highly objectionable:

[TheHammer]

Definitely inappropriate. As for why, just ask yourself if the codename of "Washington" would have been appropriate or whether you would not have felt unease with that.

I don't see where I would find the use of the word "Washington" to denote success in a military operation offensive.

What makes it differet from Geronimo?

Both are names of dead people.

I believe what Broomstick is saying is that it isn't any different. But I can see how you got confused because of how it was said. Does this clarify:

I don't see where I would find the use of the word "Washington" to denote success in a military operation to be offensive

I think the main problem with this whole situation is ignorance as to what codewords are used for. Mainly its simply to be something distinctive, and clear to reduce the chance of confusion when used in communication. This should not be confused as to say that an assigned codeword is a mean to be a descriptor or equivalent of the thing it is assigned to. One of Obama's codenames for example was "Renegade" (ref: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/us_ ... 726453.stm ).

[Simon_Jester]

There are some Natives who want no one outside of Natives to use any term or word or cultural item whatsoever that had a Native origin. This would cause massive confusion as we have to give back the names of major cities like "Chicago" and the names of states like "Dakota". I guess they want to repossess all the Z. mays as well, though where they'll put it all I don't know. No more canoes or kayaks without special permission. Some folks got bent out of shape when they put Sacagawea on a dollar coin because that was somehow exploiting her.

This strikes me as ultimately counterproductive from the point of view of anyone (me included) who doesn't want Native American culture to vanish from the face of the Earth.

Minority cultures do not survive in a healthy form when they are ghettoized, not when the inhabitants of the ghetto are free to leave and take up the majority culture instead of their ancestors' culture. Making it impossible for the majority to express any collective memory of the Native Americans in the days when they were strong will only undermine the Native Americans' ability to preserve the memory of that time themselves.

Definitely inappropriate. As for why, just ask yourself if the codename of "Washington" would have been appropriate or whether you would not have felt unease with that.

I don't see where I would find the use of the word "Washington" to denote success in a military operation offensive.

What makes it differet from Geronimo?

Both are names of dead people.

Nothing makes it different, both seem perfectly reasonable to me. Nor would I be surprised to see the German army using "Friedrich" or some such for the same purpose. It's quite literally just a code word, chosen arbitrarily and with no symbolic meaning.

There is no symbolic meaning to using "Geronimo" to say "we've killed bin Laden and we're bringing back the body," any more than there's a symbolic meaning to using "Tiger, tiger, tiger" to say "we have achieved complete surprise in our attack on Pearl Harbor." It's not that there's anything especially tiger-ish about having achieved complete surprise; it's just that it's an easy word to remember and that won't be misunderstood over the radio. You don't want to use a long phrase, because it might get garbled due to bad reception and you need the message to go through. You don't want to use a word that could easily mean something else (like "We've got them!" which is unclear).

So you use a word that no pilot would normally say on the radio: "Tiger." It's short, it's easily identified, and it's repeated multiple times to be sure it's heard correctly. That is exactly what you want to do when trying to communicate a complex idea in short form over the radio.

(For reference to anyone who doesn't already know, "Tiger, tiger, tiger" is the translation of "Tora, tora, tora," the Japanese code phrase that inspired the title of the 1970 movie about the Pearl Harbor attack)

Likewise, I doubt there was anything symbolic about the choice of name, any more than there was anything symbolic about the choice of "yellow" as the name for the plans for the German the invasion of France and the Low Countries in 1940. As far as I know, invading Czechoslovakia was "green," invading Poland was "white," and invading France and the Low Countries was "yellow" purely because some general staff officer pulled colors out of a hat and arbitrarily assigned them to the plans.

[Broomstick]

Definitely inappropriate. As for why, just ask yourself if the codename of "Washington" would have been appropriate or whether you would not have felt unease with that.

I don't see where I would find the use of the word "Washington" to denote success in a military operation offensive.

What makes it differet from Geronimo?

Both are names of dead people.

I don't know - you said you found it inappropriate. I didn't. I'm happy to agree to disagree on this, though I'm curious as to why you feel it's inappropriate.

[Artemas]

You missed the obvious parallel of Op Barbarossa. But as said, most ops are planned using random or semi-random codewords. Sometimes officers do choose the names for other reasons, but that is only common for public operations (enduring freedom, desert shield, et al).

[Connor MacLeod]

I'm cynical enough about how the US political system works to consider this just an attempt to play off of the whole "Bin Laden is dead" uproar to draw attention to someone else's pet projects. I'm pretty sure this isn't the first time something like this happened, either.

That said, I'm sure that if they'd used something else like Geronimo, it's quite possible that someone else would have screamed bloody murder (use the code word "Jesus" to piss of Christian. I doubt we'd see that happen.)

[Thanas]

I am sure most americans would find it inappropriate to find Bin Laden referred to as "Washington" in code words, for the same reasons americans would. It is using a word with positive connotations (to that specific group) and using it for a mass murderer. A more drastic example just to see if it sinks in - would you be okay with "USA" becoming a synonym in codespeak for torture?

It really puzzles me how people can go and be enraged about racists using code speak one day and then complain that they do not get it when other groups feel that a certain word usage enrages them.

[Broomstick]

This strikes me as ultimately counterproductive from the point of view of anyone (me included) who doesn't want Native American culture to vanish from the face of the Earth.

Minority cultures do not survive in a healthy form when they are ghettoized, not when the inhabitants of the ghetto are free to leave and take up the majority culture instead of their ancestors' culture. Making it impossible for the majority to express any collective memory of the Native Americans in the days when they were strong will only undermine the Native Americans' ability to preserve the memory of that time themselves.

Sure. I get that Natives have legitimate grievances and fully support them wanting to eliminate negative stereotypes, or really any sort of stereotype, and there are some appropriations of their culture that make my gorge rise and I'm not even a Native, but not every mention of them is a slap in the face.

[SCRawl]

The impression that I (and others, I think) are under is that "Geronimo" was not the code-name for OBL, but rather a code-word to express the fact that he had been taken out. In other words, two colleagues would not have said "We're out to kill Geronimo" to each other. If OBL's code-name was actually "Geronimo", then yeah, that's really not appropriate.

[Broomstick]

I am sure most americans would find it inappropriate to find Bin Laden referred to as "Washington" in code words, for the same reasons americans would. It is using a word with positive connotations (to that specific group) and using it for a mass murderer. A more drastic example just to see if it sinks in - would you be okay with "USA" becoming a synonym in codespeak for torture?

Whether it's OK or not I have recently been the recipient of various private communications informing me that USA or American is actually exactly that for some people. Of course I am offended, but we're not talking about "Geronimo" being a code for "torture" or "bin Laden" or "enemy of X nation". It's being used in the same way (as someone else pointed out) tora was used by the Japanese to denote a successful attack on Pearl Harbor: "We succeeded!"

It really puzzles me how people can go and be enraged about racists using code speak one day and then complain that they do not get it when other groups feel that a certain word usage enrages them.

OK... how does that square with it being the codeword for "We successfully completed the mission"?

Or did you miss the part where it's not the label for OBL, it's the code for "we succeeded in getting our man"?

If we had pinned that on bin Laden yes, that would have been offensive, but that's not what occurred. I can only hope bin Laden was labeled "A pig's ass", although if that is the case I'm sure the pork producers will complain.

[Thanas]

The impression that I (and others, I think) are under is that "Geronimo" was not the code-name for OBL, but rather a code-word to express the fact that he had been taken out. In other words, two colleagues would not have said "We're out to kill Geronimo" to each other. If OBL's code-name was actually "Geronimo", then yeah, that's really not appropriate.

If Geronimo was used to expresse the fact that he had been taken out, why did they use the acronym EKIA in addition to it, which means "enemy killed in action"?

[Broomstick]

To distinguish between that and "Geronimo - we have a prisoner" I presume. After all, while not an expected outcome a live capture would have been acceptable.

[Thanas]

To distinguish between that and "Geronimo - we have a prisoner" I presume. After all, while not an expected outcome a live capture would have been acceptable.

That is a possibility. I'll reserve judgement until more evidence comes to light.


Still, I wonder if the operation name is ill-chosen in that case anyway, considering that Geronimo too was hiding (in caves as well) and was the target of a massive manhunt.

[Artemas]

Or in reference to the other EKIA during the op.

EDIT: And yeah, sometimes the name for an operation is up to some mid-level officer, and they have in the past chosen all sorts of things (there were a string of ops in Afghanistan named after sports teams; celtics, red wings, etc). It is possible that someone chose Geronimo precisely because of the parallel, but also just a long series of themed or randomly generated codewords.

[TheHammer]

I am sure most americans would find it inappropriate to find Bin Laden referred to as "Washington" in code words, for the same reasons americans would. It is using a word with positive connotations (to that specific group) and using it for a mass murderer. A more drastic example just to see if it sinks in - would you be okay with "USA" becoming a synonym in codespeak for torture?

It really puzzles me how people can go and be enraged about racists using code speak one day and then complain that they do not get it when other groups feel that a certain word usage enrages them.

Codewords are not synonyms. Often times they have no tangible link whatsoever with the object they are used to reference.

[Broomstick]

It's probably more effective if code words don't have a connection to what they're code for.

[Covenant]

I wouldn't mind if they used Washington as the name for Bin Ladin OR the operation. Operation Washington sounds badass, like something in a movie or a videogame. Like Operation: Damocles or Operation: Freedomspartamerica. I would find it kinda clever and a bit of dark humor, in fact, to codename our enemy by the national hero we'd like to drop on him. Hell, if they want to use my name for the code-name for the guy, feel free. "EKIA! Covenant down!"

Sounds fine to me.

BTW, Geronimo was the name of the op.

How exactly the term was used remains unclear. After bin Laden was killed, the military sent a message back to the White House: "Geronimo EKIA" — enemy killed in action. U.S. officials have since said that "Geronimo" was the name of the operation itself and that "Jackpot" was the code word for bin Laden.

[Thanas]

Still a bad choice exactly because of those possible similarities.

[Covenant]

Still a bad choice exactly because of those possible similarities.

Pff. Now you're just reaching. We used a war cry and the somewhat-given name of a brave soldier to code-name the most badass special-forces operation in recent memory and people are like "wah it can be incorrectly construed as insensitive." At some point we need to ask people to use sense and act like adults. And like I said, I showed it WASN'T the name for Bin Ladin and you're still not satisfied, even though I'm even telling you I wouldn't be upset if this has been Operation Jefferson or Operation Franklin or something. Operation Apple Pie.

[Nephtys]

Really, it's a random code name. Do you know how many totally random codenames they have?

Operation Geronimo could easily have been Operation Gettysburg. What, are you hating on the South now by calling the Confederates islamofasciterrorists? It's the same thing. Plus, I haven't heard any account that says 'We got Geronimo', but rather 'Geronimo' being used as a mission accomplished code-word.

[Covenant]

Found another article:

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/osama-bi ... d=13507836

Sounds like Geronimo may be codeword for "found bin Ladin" in the way they used it, or maybe just "mission go" of some sort. Saying it once when they land and then again with E-KIA 40 minutes later. My original source still ID'd Osama as Jackpot, with the mission either as Geronimo or Neptune's Spear.

In any case, this is a silly thing to complain about. We call our cruise missiles Tomahawks, identify our big Helicopters as Apaches--a name which means "enemy" and is not the name those peoples would actually use, and name our national landmarks after misunderstood translations of native tounges. I'd say to call this instance racist is... tone deaf.

[Broomstick]

Well, now the TV is reporting that the Apache tribe (as distinct form a DC bureaucrat) feels offense and is asking for an apology.

Well, OK, we should apologize for any unintentional offense. To the Apaches. Not to a flunky from the Bureau of Indian Affairs.