The Legacy of Steve Jobs

[aerius]

I'm not seeing how this is a bad thing. Do the Chinese not have a right to well paying manufacturing jobs?

Back before workers committing suicide en masse at the FoxConn plants where Apple products are made, they were paid a bit over $100 a month. When I was a student working a summer job at RIM 10 years ago, I made more than that in a single 8 hour shift. They now get paid about $300 a month which is still 10 times less than my student job salary from 10 years ago. I would not call $300/month a well paying job especially considering the conditions they're forced to work under. They work a hell of a lot longer and more shifts than we do with OSHA violations galore.

[mr friendly guy]

If Apple got their manufacturing done in China but the workers got paid a decent wage and the work conditions weren't so bad, then I doubt people would have as much of a problem with it.

Actually from reading those posters such as Aerius, Ma Deuce etc from previous post, their beef is less so that China gets "slave wages", but that its taking jobs from AMERICA (interesting, considering those two are Canadians). In any event, the conditions are crap (ie number of hours work etc) are not what I am disputing, although I will need to know the cost of living in China, average wages elsewhere to know how Foxcann (Taiwanese company which Apple outsources to) pays its workers vs the average in China, before I can make an informed judgment.

[Broomstick]

Without the Apple II, there wouldn't have been a home computing revolution. There certainly wouldn't have been IBM PC-compatibles.

This is total bullshit. The market was absolutely crowded with personal computers. No Apple II would just mean Commodore or Tandy or someone else gets those users and historical role. The revolution would have been delayed by six months at most.

^ This.

I was using Tandy TRS-80's and a Commodore PET long before I ever touched an Apple II - all three of which came out in 1977 as best I recall so it's ludicrous to claim the other two wouldn't exist without the Apple II. (Let's just ignore Heathkit and Altair kits, plus a few of their competitors) Apples I used only briefly, and never touched a Macintosh. By 1980 I and a lot of other people had latched onto the IBM PC's with the Microsoft DOS (not that there weren't some issues there as well - my household actually went from the Tandy computers to the PC clones, we've never owned Apples, it's hardly a requirement). It's ludicrous to assert that with no Apple II there would be no home computing.

Again, this is also ignores the Atari and Coleco forays into the home computing world. And probably others I don't remember. There were a shitload of companies in the late 1970's and Apple was just one small start-up among many. If Apple hadn't existed there would have been hardly a ripple. Well, maybe Microsoft, Gates, and Allen would have made even more money that they did in this version of reality.

[Dominus Atheos]

The Onion sums up the internet reaction like only they can:

BOSTON—Calling the death a “tragic loss” and saying he was “truly devastated by the news,” self-described Apple product loyalist Eric Cavanaugh is treating the passing of the company’s former CEO Steve Jobs as if his fucking dad just died, sources confirmed Thursday. “I can’t believe it,” said Cavanaugh, 28, wearing a saddened expression that would make you think he was mourning the loss of his 61-year-old father, Jack, and not a complete goddamn stranger. “He meant a lot to me, and I’ll miss him. I think I might send an e-mail to rememberingsteve@apple.com [instead of contacting the man he hasn’t talked to in a month who helped him with his homework, paid his college tuition, and has supported him throughout his entire life, loving him unconditionally despite his myriad fuckups].” At press time, Cavanaugh reportedly needs to get his fucking priorities straight.

[Stark]

People identify with complete strangers all the time. Next we'll hear that people caring about the deaths of actors or sportsmen is also stupid, that'll be a real newsflash!

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

Turns out para-social relationships are just a part of modern social psychology.

[His Divine Shadow]

Ironic, the same day jobs died was the same day I resurrected my dead 1st gen ipod nano. With a battery I bought from HK for $3.50 incl. freight. I think Apple wanted over 60 bucks for a replacement.

[Dr Roberts]

In fairness I once dropped my Ipod in some Milk and got a new one free.

[Lagmonster]

I'm not seeing how this is a bad thing. Do the Chinese not have a right to well paying manufacturing jobs?

The problem is that they're not well paid. It's borderline slave labor with atrocious conditions. If Apple got their manufacturing done in China but the workers got paid a decent wage and the work conditions weren't so bad, then I doubt people would have as much of a problem with it.

Far be it for me to come out in favour of sweatshops, but comfy westerners sometimes - just sometimes - don't get that there are places on earth where working in a dirty warehouse for pennies a day is a step up from subsistence agriculture. I can't prove that these workers had no better choice, but calling it "borderline slave labour" implies some shit in itself that you might want to look into.

[Lagmonster]

This was split from the Steve Jobs thread, and then split from the HoSed Steve Jobs thread. I stand by my original claim: Memorial threads serve no purpose if one cannot discuss the deceased's legacy, for better or for worse. I realize that this thread may duplicate some of what was said in the Steve Jobs thread, but fuck it: People who just want to mourn can go there, and people who have something to say about the empire he created and left can go here.

[mr friendly guy]

Given that we bitch about things like a tax on pollution or the big bad guvimit taking just a little bit more of our tax, it most probably shouldn't be surprising that we attribute working conditions in some Chinese factories to slave labour conditions, with added hyperbole. It seems we project our own situation onto these workers, without taking into account things like costs of living. Just for the record, the condition in Foxconn sucks donkey balls, but to call it slave labour is either excessive hyperbole or an insult to people who actually experienced slavery. The fact that workers are willing to put up with Foxconn's treatment in a time where China has a labour shortage seems to suggest that these workers might paid more than if they stayed in their small rural towns.

I do wonder how China would develop the managerial, technological, financial know how to go from a third world country to a second world and eventually a developed nation without having to go through intermediate steps like having these factories. Its one thing to say I would like Chinese workers to have better pay and conditions, another to somehow expect it to happen without China starting off with cheap labour (ie most workers do low pay low skill jobs eg textiles before more and more workers move to better pay high skill jobs eg higher end manufacturing), and another thing to even fail to consider that the now ex worker would be worse off without a job.

[Broomstick]

Far be it for me to come out in favour of sweatshops, but comfy westerners sometimes - just sometimes - don't get that there are places on earth where working in a dirty warehouse for pennies a day is a step up from subsistence agriculture. I can't prove that these workers had no better choice, but calling it "borderline slave labour" implies some shit in itself that you might want to look into.

There are hypothetical situations that are worse than actual slavery - that doesn't mean making people in those situations slaves is morally acceptable. Being locked in a factory, 7 day work weeks, 12-14 hours days, and crap food may be an improvement over starving to death due to failed crops or whatever, but it's still no way to treat human beings.

[Alphawolf55]

I remember reading a story once about how Steve Jobs was offered around 750 dollars with bonus for each chip removed from a game company to make a version of Breakout. Steve Jobs got his friend Steve Wozniak to do it, telling him it was a flat 750 dollars and told him he'd split the money 50/50. Steve kept telling Wozniak it was required to get the chips below a certain amount not explaining the bonus. After Wozniak finished the project after 4 days of no sleep, Jobs received a 5000 dollar bonus but gave Wozniak only the original 375.

I gotta say, to do that to a friend is pretty shitty.

[Count Chocula]

But, the law should be changed to say fuck the shareholders in times like this. It's one thing to seek increased profits through owning and operating a business, but there's a responsiblity to not treat your workers too poorly as well, especially when you could make such big improvements through such a small decrease in profit.

That's actually the responsibility of the shareholders and board of directors. From an accounting standpoint, Jobs had little input to how the company was/is run, his marketing genius was what the Board wanted. The majority owners condoning sweatshop Chinese labor are the bigger assholes, and should know better.

When I lived in San Diego, I was product manager for a company that had a maquiladora in Tijuana. We paid our workers good wages...then the Peso devaluation hit, along with Mexico City imposed wage limits. So, to compensate for our employees' reduced purchasing power we gave them bonuses for coming in on time x number of days, going x number of days without an absence, going x weeks without having a sick day, etc. etc. Why? Because we gave a shit about their welfare. Apple's board should also care.