Forced marriages in Germany much higher

[Rabid]

That seems like a pretty fine distinction to me.

I'm not saying that one does not have any consequence on the other. I'm just saying that the causal link may be reversed, or more complicated than we usually think.

just noting that French integrationist policies don't seem to have been effective in their goal. Or at least, not more effective than multiculturalism.

Well, if I agree with you in a certain measure, I think it is still debatable. We'd need some hard, trustworthy data.

Anyway, you wouldn't find any official statistics on the subject for France, as the state is proscribed from doing any statistics based on Ethnicity or Religion. I think you can opt-in indicate your religion in the census papers, but I'm not even sure...
I agree that we currently lack appropriate data for any kind of meaningful answer on the subject.

[evilsoup]

Not allowed to take that kind of information - not even anonymously? How on Earth can the government determine if a measure has unintentional discriminatory effects? Anonymous ethnic/religios/cultural/gender monitoring is mandatory for employers (and educational establishments) over here.

This has got to be the most infuriating way to end a discussion, the information just not being available... ah well.

[Rabid]

How on Earth can the government determine if a measure has unintentional discriminatory effects?

*shrug* "Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité" + "Laïcité", and people fearing demagogic/racist derives if you were to start basing your policies on religious/ethnicity/sexuality criteria ("inside" factors) instead of things more acceptable in light of the Republican values, like income inequalities, educational level or access to cultural infrastructure ("outside" factors)...

Thinking about it, there's the HALDE (High Authority Against Discrimination and for Equality), which is there to monitor all things related to discrimination. Maybe they have the kind of data you search ?

[Simon_Jester]

How on Earth can the government determine if a measure has unintentional discriminatory effects?

Hire a lot of bored statisticians?

*shrug* "Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité" + "Laïcité", and people fearing demagogic/racist derives if you were to start basing your policies on religious/ethnicity/sexuality criteria ("inside" factors) instead of things more acceptable in light of the Republican values, like income inequalities, educational level or access to cultural infrastructure ("outside" factors)...

That is such a useful slogan for a government...

[evilsoup]

How on Earth can the government determine if a measure has unintentional discriminatory effects?

Hire a lot of bored statisticians?

How would that help if they are legally barred from collecting data to analyse in the first place?

Rabid, that site may well be useful, but my French is ... well, 'not good' would be generous. I'll try and see if I can slog my way through to getting anything out of it tomorrow, anyway.

[Thanas]

There are problems with multiculturalism (which has been the policy in the UK for quite a while), but it isn't all bad. Compare with France, where there is a much more forceful policy of intergration, and which is plagued by riots from their Muslim minorities; something that simply doesn't happen here (and I haven't heard of anything like that in Germany either).

We do have yearly riots between police and troublemakers (of all kinds, including immigrants). Especially in Berlin it gets very, very ugly - this is an example of a small riot. During these times it is not uncommon to see Turks and Kurds go at it - seems to be a free for all. Usually the police is able to give them the business, but it will take 1-2 days of street battles to get it in hand.

It is amazing that nobody dies in these riots.

[salm]

There are problems with multiculturalism (which has been the policy in the UK for quite a while), but it isn't all bad. Compare with France, where there is a much more forceful policy of intergration, and which is plagued by riots from their Muslim minorities; something that simply doesn't happen here (and I haven't heard of anything like that in Germany either).

We do have yearly riots between police and troublemakers (of all kinds, including immigrants). Especially in Berlin it gets very, very ugly - this is an example of a small riot. During these times it is not uncommon to see Turks and Kurds go at it - seems to be a free for all. Usually the police is able to give them the business, but it will take 1-2 days of street battles to get it in hand.

It is amazing that nobody dies in these riots.

Have you ever been to such a riot? I don´t think it´s all that surprising that deaths are rare. The cops are armored like tanks, so the bottles and rocks usually can´t harm them.

I guess sometimes a bottle goes stray, and bottles are the most common missiles. Rocks are a lot less frequent. The bottles are mostly thrown from behind the lines, describing an arc, so even if a bystander gets hit it will not kill him. In a lot of cases probably not even injure him drastically.

The cops on the other hand usually don´t kill anyone either.
When the cops filming the whole scene have somebody tagged for arrest with video cam proof a row of cops will storm into the parting mass, grab the relevant protestor and drag him away. I´ve never seen them even take out their clubs.

[Thanas]

I think it is surprising seeing how often similar protests in the USA cause death or heavy injuries, yes. The restraint on part of the cops is pretty good.

[Serafina]

I think it is surprising seeing how often similar protests in the USA cause death or heavy injuries, yes. The restraint on part of the cops is pretty good.

It's more than just restraint, it's also their general approach: Instead of trying to beat down the whole group, they target specific agitators and trouble-makers and arrest them. That tends to reduce aggression - and they simply don't have to beat the majority of their opposition into submission, therefore reducing the number of people who could be injured if something goes wrong. And it's of course a generally more controlled approach, so the odds of any police officers getting overzealous are also lower.