Tea Party: Teach the good about slavery too

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Re: Tea Party: Teach the good about slavery too

Post by Isolder74 »

Broken wrote:
Panzersharkcat wrote: Apologists may cite the fact that the market value of a "prime" male slave in New Orleans from 1820 to 1856 rose from $850 to $1200 as evidence of slavery doing fine. That is refuted in part by the fact that nominal daily wages in South Central states for unskilled labor rose from 73 cents to 95 cents. Of the 41% increase in the price of slaves, 30% could be explained by growing productivity of labor in general. In short, they have no leg to stand on in apologizing for slavery.
Going off of memory, wasn't the importation of slaves to the United States outlawed shortly before the War of 1812? I know it was later declared an act of piracy, plus the Royal Navy had its West Africa Squadron in operation, all of which forced slavery to become more self-sustaining since it was no longer a simple matter of waiting for the next slave ship to arrive. Prices went up because the cheap/easy supply was cut off. Ironic that a smuggler could be hung for slave trading, but not the slave auctioneers in operation within the United States.

The outlaw of the importation of Slavery was in the original US Constitution.
Us Constitution, Article I: Section 9 wrote:The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight, but a Tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person.
The law that would put it into effect was passed in 1807.
http://history1800s.about.com/od/slaveryinamerica/a/1807slaveact.htm wrote:The law was finally passed by both houses of Congress on March 2, 1807, and Jefferson signed it into law on March 3, 1807. However, given the restriction imposed by Article I, Section 9 of the Constitution, the law would only become effective on January 1, 1808.
So all importation of new slaves from Africa was ended officially in 1808.
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Re: Tea Party: Teach the good about slavery too

Post by SpaceMarine93 »

"whoever controls the past controls the future..."

- George Orwell

Of course, what the Conservatives are trying to do is nothing unusual. Glorifying their own history and downplaying others, all to strengthen nationalism, create an illusion of cultural infallibility and promote social values. Since when had there been not a time that people try to distort history for their own benefit?

I would bet the liberals would do the same thing in their place. Looks like the Conservatives had just lost the moral highground... assuming there's enough smart people who actually realizes what those guys are doing to do anything about it.
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Re: Tea Party: Teach the good about slavery too

Post by Rogue 9 »

I'll just leave this here.
Dayton, Ohio,

August 7, 1865

To My Old Master, Colonel P.H. Anderson, Big Spring, Tennessee

Sir: I got your letter, and was glad to find that you had not forgotten Jourdon, and that you wanted me to come back and live with you again, promising to do better for me than anybody else can. I have often felt uneasy about you. I thought the Yankees would have hung you long before this, for harboring Rebs they found at your house. I suppose they never heard about your going to Colonel Martin's to kill the Union soldier that was left by his company in their stable. Although you shot at me twice before I left you, I did not want to hear of your being hurt, and am glad you are still living. It would do me good to go back to the dear old home again, and see Miss Mary and Miss Martha and Allen, Esther, Green, and Lee. Give my love to them all, and tell them I hope we will meet in the better world, if not in this. I would have gone back to see you all when I was working in the Nashville Hospital, but one of the neighbors told me that Henry intended to shoot me if he ever got a chance.

I want to know particularly what the good chance is you propose to give me. I am doing tolerably well here. I get twenty-five dollars a month, with victuals and clothing; have a comfortable home for Mandy,—the folks call her Mrs. Anderson,—and the children—Milly, Jane, and Grundy—go to school and are learning well. The teacher says Grundy has a head for a preacher. They go to Sunday school, and Mandy and me attend church regularly. We are kindly treated. Sometimes we overhear others saying, "Them colored people were slaves" down in Tennessee. The children feel hurt when they hear such remarks; but I tell them it was no disgrace in Tennessee to belong to Colonel Anderson. Many darkeys would have been proud, as I used to be, to call you master. Now if you will write and say what wages you will give me, I will be better able to decide whether it would be to my advantage to move back again.

As to my freedom, which you say I can have, there is nothing to be gained on that score, as I got my free papers in 1864 from the Provost-Marshal-General of the Department of Nashville. Mandy says she would be afraid to go back without some proof that you were disposed to treat us justly and kindly; and we have concluded to test your sincerity by asking you to send us our wages for the time we served you. This will make us forget and forgive old scores, and rely on your justice and friendship in the future. I served you faithfully for thirty-two years, and Mandy twenty years. At twenty-five dollars a month for me, and two dollars a week for Mandy, our earnings would amount to eleven thousand six hundred and eighty dollars. Add to this the interest for the time our wages have been kept back, and deduct what you paid for our clothing, and three doctor's visits to me, and pulling a tooth for Mandy, and the balance will show what we are in justice entitled to. Please send the money by Adams's Express, in care of V. Winters, Esq., Dayton, Ohio. If you fail to pay us for faithful labors in the past, we can have little faith in your promises in the future. We trust the good Maker has opened your eyes to the wrongs which you and your fathers have done to me and my fathers, in making us toil for you for generations without recompense. Here I draw my wages every Saturday night; but in Tennessee there was never any pay-day for the negroes any more than for the horses and cows. Surely there will be a day of reckoning for those who defraud the laborer of his hire.

In answering this letter, please state if there would be any safety for my Milly and Jane, who are now grown up, and both good-looking girls. You know how it was with poor Matilda and Catherine. I would rather stay here and starve—and die, if it come to that—than have my girls brought to shame by the violence and wickedness of their young masters. You will also please state if there has been any schools opened for the colored children in your neighborhood. The great desire of my life now is to give my children an education, and have them form virtuous habits.

Say howdy to George Carter, and thank him for taking the pistol from you when you were shooting at me.

From your old servant,

Jourdon Anderson.
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Re: Tea Party: Teach the good about slavery too

Post by Zinegata »

Civil War Man wrote:Not only would the Southern economy probably not have collapsed without slavery, the only reason slavery persisted as long as it did was because of racism and cultural inertia. The only thing stopping the Southern landowners from mimicking the North's business practice of hiring poor expendable workers for a below subsistence wage was that they wanted to own people as property.
Not exactly, but there's a grain of truth to this. Slaves had a substantial dollar value - so substantial that the paper wealth of the South actually exceeded the North.

Abolishing slavery would wipe out millions of dollars worth of "wealth" for the Southern land owners - since they couldn't exchange their "property" for cash anymore.

Greed was at the heart of retaining the system; not just people wanting to be dicks for the sake of being dicks.
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Re: Tea Party: Teach the good about slavery too

Post by Spyder »

Telling yourself that slavery isn't such a bad thing makes it easier to reconcile slavery vs 3rd world slave wages. The only difference being who buys the bread.
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Re: Tea Party: Teach the good about slavery too

Post by Simon_Jester »

Spyder, if we're going to talk about how that ties into slavery, I'm more reminded of the idea that Northern "wage slaves" were somehow no more free than Southern chattel slaves. Which was nonsense, favored by (if not only by) the slave owners themselves.

Bad wages are a whole different problem from slavery. Forcing people to work immensely long hours in unsafe conditions to keep the job at all is a little more like slavery, and yet still different- your shift supervisor can't legally just up and randomly decide to rape your children, for example.

So I don't think this is a significant factor, because the link is not very strong. The better analogy is to the working condition of 19th century free laborers, which were often abysmal- but that took a very different set of solutions and methods to handle than chattel slavery did.
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Re: Tea Party: Teach the good about slavery too

Post by Sriad »

There certainly are "nicer" things about slavery than are taught in many classes, but there's also a hell of a lot more rape and mutilation than kids are currently told about.

By and large, slavers are coming out ahead in the reputation game.
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Re: Tea Party: Teach the good about slavery too

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Sriad wrote:There certainly are "nicer" things about slavery than are taught in many classes, but there's also a hell of a lot more rape and mutilation than kids are currently told about.

By and large, slavers are coming out ahead in the reputation game.
Really? And here I thought they were right proper gentlemen </sarcasm>

Most history classes in the US aren't exactly accurate. They generally start with the "birth of civilization"... in Egypt. There's barely any mention of what happens in prehistoric times (because of the whole "Evolution is a scary word" thing) and the real birth place of modern western civilization (which is what's being taught in most cases) barely gets a note. There's some mention of midevil Europe but it's mostly a glossing over, before we get to the real page turning sections: AMERICAN HISTORY! We start with a very brief mention of Spain finding the Americas, then it's all about England until we get to THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION! Then it's all about America for the second half of the year, ending around the world wars. That's how it ended with me. And even then, the wars were glossed over faster than the Greeks.

The Civil War is usually taught from the perspective of the Union as "we are the good guys and will win because we are awesome". The way it's written, it's made to sound like the Confederates were entirely in the wrong due to slavery and because they're bad, they must lose. None of the other issues that also came up, like the South wanting states rights and many of the poor men fighting wanting to retain their place in society. It's a lopsided argument that doesn't bring up any of the horrible realities of war, like Sherman's March to the Sea or the Anaconda Plan. It's a cut and dry "The Union won and the South was made to accept a non-slavery economy so everyone's happy yay!" though there's no mention of what happens afterwards, such as the military occupation of the South (Reconstruction) or the Jim Crow laws, and the Civil Rights Movement is only shown as "We once thought bad things but now we don't yay!"

Sorry, I have a severe distaste for modern American primary education.
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Re: Tea Party: Teach the good about slavery too

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Spyder wrote:Telling yourself that slavery isn't such a bad thing makes it easier to reconcile slavery vs 3rd world slave wages. The only difference being who buys the bread.
It doesn't surprise me that Teabaggers are pushing this pro-slavery horseshit. They want to excuse the worst parts of the past in order to justify the worst parts of the present. It's an article of faith among Teabaggers that the evil federal government should NEVER intervene in the economy. This leads to the obvious reply "Including slavery?", which would cause the more devious conservatives to hem and haw, but hemming and hawing requires more complex thought than the average Teabagger can muster. So they feel the need to say that slavery wasn't so bad.

It's much like the way fundies paint themselves into a corner with Leviticus and other ghastly parts of the bible. The non-fundie could dismiss those parts of the Not-So-Good Book as fables or myths, but the fundie feels the need to not only say the stories are true, but that the mass rape, murder and kidnapping in Judges and other chapters were good things and those Amalekite toddlers deserved to be butchered (the boys) or abducted and raped (the girls).
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Re: Tea Party: Teach the good about slavery too

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Baffalo wrote:
Sriad wrote:There certainly are "nicer" things about slavery than are taught in many classes, but there's also a hell of a lot more rape and mutilation than kids are currently told about.

By and large, slavers are coming out ahead in the reputation game.
The Civil War is usually taught from the perspective of the Union as "we are the good guys and will win because we are awesome". The way it's written, it's made to sound like the Confederates were entirely in the wrong due to slavery and because they're bad, they must lose. None of the other issues that also came up, like the South wanting states rights and many of the poor men fighting wanting to retain their place in society. It's a lopsided argument that doesn't bring up any of the horrible realities of war, like Sherman's March to the Sea or the Anaconda Plan.
lolwut? American history textbooks are dripping with slavocrat apologia and hoary old bullshit like "it was really about states rights" and "oh those poor noble Confederate soldiers". It's gotten better since the late 80s, but when I was teaching in West Philadelphia, I had a textbook (published in 2002) that softpeadled slavery and treated the Civil War like an unfortunate misunderstanding instead of, you know, a violent revolt instigated by the slaveholding losers of a free and fair democratic election (I used the teacher's edition to keep the window propped open on warm days).
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Re: Tea Party: Teach the good about slavery too

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RedImperator wrote:
Baffalo wrote:The Civil War is usually taught from the perspective of the Union as "we are the good guys and will win because we are awesome". The way it's written, it's made to sound like the Confederates were entirely in the wrong due to slavery and because they're bad, they must lose. None of the other issues that also came up, like the South wanting states rights and many of the poor men fighting wanting to retain their place in society. It's a lopsided argument that doesn't bring up any of the horrible realities of war, like Sherman's March to the Sea or the Anaconda Plan.
lolwut? American history textbooks are dripping with slavocrat apologia and hoary old bullshit like "it was really about states rights" and "oh those poor noble Confederate soldiers". It's gotten better since the late 80s, but when I was teaching in West Philadelphia, I had a textbook (published in 2002) that softpeadled slavery and treated the Civil War like an unfortunate misunderstanding instead of, you know, a violent revolt instigated by the slaveholding losers of a free and fair democratic election (I used the teacher's edition to keep the window propped open on warm days).
Seems like a good use. I imagine most of the problem stems from the fact that my school was one of the youngest in the district and it was built in the late 50s and the only group that really got funding was the football team. Schoolbooks were old and out-dated, there were lots of times they didn't have toilet paper for the bathrooms and the ceiling leaked like a sieve. We probably got the books that were left over from Reconstruction when it was all about the Union's victory. Of course, part of it was probably also us being in Arkansas, which only had one major battle* where the Confederates out numbered the Union... and still lost. *facepalm*

*Battle of Pea Ridge
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Re: Tea Party: Teach the good about slavery too

Post by Simon_Jester »

It may vary- there's a famous schizophrenia in American schools between the systems that use Texas's books and the ones that use California's books, and I'm sure there are other veins out there. So a given high school history book may be vague, bland Union propaganda, vague, bland Confederate propaganda, or both.
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Re: Tea Party: Teach the good about slavery too

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Baffalo wrote:
Really? And here I thought they were right proper gentlemen </sarcasm>

Most history classes in the US aren't exactly accurate. They generally start with the "birth of civilization"... in Egypt. There's barely any mention of what happens in prehistoric times (because of the whole "Evolution is a scary word" thing) and the real birth place of modern western civilization (which is what's being taught in most cases) barely gets a note. There's some mention of midevil Europe but it's mostly a glossing over, before we get to the real page turning sections: AMERICAN HISTORY! We start with a very brief mention of Spain finding the Americas, then it's all about England until we get to THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION! Then it's all about America for the second half of the year, ending around the world wars. That's how it ended with me. And even then, the wars were glossed over faster than the Greeks.

The Civil War is usually taught from the perspective of the Union as "we are the good guys and will win because we are awesome". The way it's written, it's made to sound like the Confederates were entirely in the wrong due to slavery and because they're bad, they must lose. None of the other issues that also came up, like the South wanting states rights and many of the poor men fighting wanting to retain their place in society. It's a lopsided argument that doesn't bring up any of the horrible realities of war, like Sherman's March to the Sea or the Anaconda Plan. It's a cut and dry "The Union won and the South was made to accept a non-slavery economy so everyone's happy yay!" though there's no mention of what happens afterwards, such as the military occupation of the South (Reconstruction) or the Jim Crow laws, and the Civil Rights Movement is only shown as "We once thought bad things but now we don't yay!"

Sorry, I have a severe distaste for modern American primary education.
Frankly. time is always a big problem when teaching history. There simply isn't enough time to deeply cover large parts of history. At that point you basically have two choices: quickly skim over large parts of history, or choose a few exemplary parts and cover them well. Now, I'm not sure how exactly the situation is in the US with regards to how much influence the teacher has in that choice. Here in Germany, it largely depends on what school type you are teaching in. Depending on the school type and class here in Germany you might have one school year in which you cover history from antiquity to today, including the political system (theoretically some of that should be repetition). There you can basically only choose one topic and look at how that changed through history (the role of women, or human rights, for example).

If you only have very little time to cover the American civil war, for example, simply saying it was about slavery is good enough. There is some additional stuff besides that that lead to the American civil war, but its almost all consequences from slavery. States' rights was only important for the South regarding slavery. They were willing to ignore it if it worked in favor of slavery. Similarly, the poor people in the South were either politically irrelevant and also profiting from slavery - though only a relatively tiny minority directly owned slaves a large majority was involved directly or indirectly involved in the usage of slaves - things like working as overseers, etc. Enough seceding states made it clear that the primary factor leading to secession was slavery. Simplifying that to it was all because of slavery is fine, in my opinion.
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Re: Tea Party: Teach the good about slavery too

Post by Metatwaddle »

D.Turtle wrote:Frankly. time is always a big problem when teaching history. There simply isn't enough time to deeply cover large parts of history. At that point you basically have two choices: quickly skim over large parts of history, or choose a few exemplary parts and cover them well. Now, I'm not sure how exactly the situation is in the US with regards to how much influence the teacher has in that choice. Here in Germany, it largely depends on what school type you are teaching in. Depending on the school type and class here in Germany you might have one school year in which you cover history from antiquity to today, including the political system (theoretically some of that should be repetition). There you can basically only choose one topic and look at how that changed through history (the role of women, or human rights, for example).
History teachers in the US might have more control than teachers of some other subjects, because there's no "No Child Left Behind" tests (i.e. national standardized tests) for history. On the other hand, there are state-level requirements. They may mandate that you teach world history in 10th grade, US history in 11th, and so on, and they'll also decide on more specific things that students are expected to know on state standardized tests. Some states are stricter about this than others.

Also, teachers are always limited by their textbooks, which are often limited by other states' history standards. California and Texas are the two biggest buyers of textbooks, so their standards tend to dictate the content of those textbooks. (California is pretty okay, but Texas pulls shit like this.) Even if, say, the New Jersey school board and teachers are completely sane, New Jersey teachers might be forced to use textbooks that conform to the Texas standards, because that's what's in the current edition of McGraw-Hill's US history textbook. If they're lucky, there'll be one that's more California than Texas. And some of them will ignore their textbooks, like Red did. (There's a neat book called Lies My Teacher Told Me that examines popular American history textbooks and finds them overly sympathetic to Confederates, among other flaws.)
If you only have very little time to cover the American civil war, for example, simply saying it was about slavery is good enough. There is some additional stuff besides that that lead to the American civil war, but its almost all consequences from slavery. States' rights was only important for the South regarding slavery. They were willing to ignore it if it worked in favor of slavery. Similarly, the poor people in the South were either politically irrelevant and also profiting from slavery - though only a relatively tiny minority directly owned slaves a large majority was involved directly or indirectly involved in the usage of slaves - things like working as overseers, etc. Enough seceding states made it clear that the primary factor leading to secession was slavery. Simplifying that to it was all because of slavery is fine, in my opinion.
Yup. The line that "the US Civil War wasn't about slavery, it was about states' rights" is somewhere between a false dilemma, a distraction, and a straight-up lie.

Teachers of American history never have enough time to teach everything they want in a year. However, they always spend a disproportionate amount of time on wars, and usually more time on the US Civil War than any other event. Your typical high school history teacher might do a two-week unit on the Civil War, so he or she can afford to spend one lecture on the causes and motives of the parties involved. Often teachers say a lot of the things you said, but sometimes they don't. I'd expect the explanations to vary regionally, with Southern teachers and textbooks more likely to repeat the "states' rights" canard and other tropes of Confederate apologism, and Northern ones more likely to gloss over the fact that the Union did not initially go to war to free slaves. On the other hand, Red has regaled me with tales of Confederate apologism in Northern states' textbooks, and Lies My Teacher Told Me criticizes books used across the country, so who knows.
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Re: Tea Party: Teach the good about slavery too

Post by Stark »

History teaching in highschoolers always seems to focus on wars; specifically laundry lists of wars and winners and 'and then the x was captured' simplifications. I guess it's an attempt to make it interesting, or maybe an outgrowth of the original plan to make people patriotic.
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Re: Tea Party: Teach the good about slavery too

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I can only speak for Massachusetts, and then only since I've been teaching. However, the state sets standards for what we do by year and by quarter. So a 9th grade English class always looks like this: short stories and journals for the 1st quarter, Drama (must include Shakespeare and the Odyseesy) second, 3rd you read a novel, nonfiction, and teach how to write a research paper and cite everything properly, and 4th you do poetry.

Within that framework, anything goes.

Up here, we tend to teach the Civil War as having been about slavery, but the alternative viewpoint comes up inevitably. I don't think we really emphasize how destructive the War was though. Of course, we are required to bring up local war hero Robert Gould Shaw and his 54th Massachusetts Regiment.

I do know that we mention the Civil War in Civics and Street Law when we teach the Constitution and state's rights is brought up, and the 1st quarter of 11th grade we cover writings about the Revolution and Civil War from people who were there, and I know there are poems and a few accounts from both sides of the fence.

...

This is Mass. There really isn't a lot we won't do for the sake of fairness and political correctness.
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