Police shoot black man after responding to his Life Alert

[SVPD]

The reason you have nothing is because right now we have a pair of opinion pieces masquerading as news stories on this event. We've supposedly got video and audio of the event, but right now we've got it filtered through the accounts of lawyers and family members; the second article is very quick to appeal to the authority of the lawyers saying one is a former prosecutor who "knows the ropes" whatever that means. The first article talks about how Chamberlain was angry at seeing "more police arrive with guns drawn. He's dead; how do we know what he saw or how he felt?

These pieces are straight-up hit jobs. What actually happened? I don't know. I am not about to defend the actions of the officers because quite frankly, I don;t even know what actions they took at what points.

In a just world, however, DA would be publicly exorciated for calling for felony murder charges based on such outrageously biased pieces when the actual evidence is not available. If the police acted improperly, used excessive force, or murdered someone, then those facts should stand on their own and not need yellow journalism of this sort

[madd0ct0r]

If the police acted improperly, used excessive force, or murdered someone, then those facts should stand on their own and not need yellow journalism of this sort

If the police acted improperly, used excessive force, or murdered someone then it can all be covered up until a few months later where the case can piggyback on public outrage at another similar case, where newspapers produce hit job stories to force action into investigating the cover-up.

[Simon_Jester]

In a just world, however, DA would be publicly exorciated for calling for felony murder charges based on such outrageously biased pieces when the actual evidence is not available. If the police acted improperly, used excessive force, or murdered someone, then those facts should stand on their own and not need yellow journalism of this sort

Er, is the prosecutor here making the decision to prosecute based on the news reports SVPD is dismissing as "hit pieces?" Or would he have some kind of access to "the actual evidence," such as non-public recordings of the LifeAlert tapes? If I were king, I'd let prosecutors get at evidence other than what they can read in the papers. Something like the LifeAlert tapes might be important evidence in determining whether to press charges and if so, with what and against whom.

[Thanas]

In a just world, however, DA would be publicly exorciated for calling for felony murder charges based on such outrageously biased pieces when the actual evidence is not available. If the police acted improperly, used excessive force, or murdered someone, then those facts should stand on their own and not need yellow journalism of this sort

I find it hilarious that as soon as a cop is accused of something we always get this "we have not seen the evidence, we have only seen stuff repeated through the [evil/cop-hating/incompetent/not to be trusted] press" spiel. The very fact of the matter is that the facts apparently cannot stand on their own because nothing happened.

In a just world, the police also would not taser a man with a heart condition, beanbag him twice and shoot him (twice). Those facts are not in dispute.

The first article talks about how Chamberlain was angry at seeing "more police arrive with guns drawn. He's dead; how do we know what he saw or how he felt?

I don't know. Maybe by magic? Or maybe they just heard him comment on the lifebox?

Er, is the prosecutor here making the decision to prosecute based on the news reports SVPD is dismissing as "hit pieces?" Or would he have some kind of access to "the actual evidence," such as non-public recordings of the LifeAlert tapes? If I were king, I'd let prosecutors get at evidence other than what they can read in the papers. Something like the LifeAlert tapes might be important evidence in determining whether to press charges and if so, with what and against whom.

I think he means DA = Domineus Atheos.

[Count Chocula]

No, in this case DA=District Attorney

[JointStrikeFighter]

Why were police even called in response to a Medical duress pendant?

[Broomstick]

How did the first responders know he was black. It appears 99% of the situation took place without the cops seeing the guy, so accusations similar to the Florida case of "I saw a black man and killed him because of it" really don't make sense here.

I'm assuming you're not from the US?

Many black people in the US speak with a distinctive accent and even use a separate dialect of English from the mainstream. They “sound black”. This might have also been a neighborhood that is predominantly black so a guess that the unseen residents behind a door are black has a near-certainty of being accurate.

A "loud noise" by itself isn't enough reason to force a door. In order to force a door without a warrant you need probable cause that someones life is in danger. A loud noise can be caused by many things, especially by an elderly man stumbling around in the dark.

Well, if they thought the elderly man stumbling in the dark was delirious or could hurt himself they might be justification for entering the place... though of course not for killing him.

Why were police even called in response to a Medical duress pendant?

Police are “first responders”. They are often called to scenes where there is no reason to believe a crime has been committed but where people need help. Examples would be something like a traffic accident. If a police unit is closer to a location than, say, an ambulance then it is entirely possible the police would go to check out the problem and render what aid they can until someone else – medical personnel, firefighters, whatever – shows up.

Medical alert pendants/companies don't (usually) directly call an ambulance. They call 911, which will send whoever is closest and/or available.

Police will also conduct “well being checks” in many areas for the elderly or disabled, which in a way makes this even more horrific.

[JointStrikeFighter]

I work for a medic alert company Broomstick. In Australia at least we most certainly do not send police as medical 1st responders because they have fucking better things to be doing that welfare checks. For that matter if we call the local 911 and say "ambulance" it goes to ambulance service, not the police.

It's just funny to see the differing attitudes. Here in Australia the police see themselves as primarily a crime fighting organization, whereas in America they seem to have crept their scope out into all areas to become DEFENDAHS OF SOCIETY.

[Aaron MkII]

Wait...so the pendant was issued for a medical condition but when they call 911, 911 doesn't have the ability to send a specific branch?

We do it here and done so you don't get cops when you need EMTs.

Zak, America seems to live in some Red Dwarfish backwards universe.

[Aaron MkII]

In a just world, however, DA would be publicly exorciated for calling for felony murder charges based on such outrageously biased pieces when the actual evidence is not available. If the police acted improperly, used excessive force, or murdered someone, then those facts should stand on their own and not need yellow journalism of this sort

I find it hilarious that as soon as a cop is accused of something we always get this "we have not seen the evidence, we have only seen stuff repeated through the [evil/cop-hating/incompetent/not to be trusted] press" spiel. The very fact of the matter is that the facts apparently cannot stand on their own because nothing happened.

In a just world, the police also would not taser a man with a heart condition, beanbag him twice and shoot him (twice). Those facts are not in dispute.

The first article talks about how Chamberlain was angry at seeing "more police arrive with guns drawn. He's dead; how do we know what he saw or how he felt?

I don't know. Maybe by magic? Or maybe they just heard him comment on the lifebox?

Er, is the prosecutor here making the decision to prosecute based on the news reports SVPD is dismissing as "hit pieces?" Or would he have some kind of access to "the actual evidence," such as non-public recordings of the LifeAlert tapes? If I were king, I'd let prosecutors get at evidence other than what they can read in the papers. Something like the LifeAlert tapes might be important evidence in determining whether to press charges and if so, with what and against whom.

I think he means DA = Domineus Atheos.

American police appear to have a seige mentality. They get accussed of misconduct so they rally around eac other and cover things up, eventually it becomes Us vs Them and self fullfilling.

[JointStrikeFighter]

Here you call 911, which is run by the phone company (paid for by govt) and say

"ambulance" and they transfer you to the closest to point of call dispatch centre for ambulance.

For us in the monitoring centre we usually either have a direct phone number for the relevant dispatch centre for the client, or if we are calling 911 we say "ambulance in Melbourne Victoria" and are transferred to that dispatch centre.

[Stark]

It's remarkable because it's not only a destructive attitude, but one that obviously makes their objectives harder and creates a cycle of corruption. Oh well?

[Aaron MkII]

Remember how we discussed it being part of the militarization of police, increased budgets and stuff?

[Stark]

In this case it's interesting to see the authoritarian element; Do as you are told at all times OR DIE, citizen!

Land of the free etc. Sadly this culture is so widespread and self perpetuating that itd take a huge effort to change it, and most police would be difficult to engage with any such program because they're conditioned to defend the hive above all else. I wonder if they believe that protecting their own authority is helping anyone but themselves?

[Vendetta]

Are you fucking stupid or something? You are advocating for every single fucking one of the people on sight to be charged with MURDER. You are blaming ALL of them for this crime without a single fucking shred of evidence. Yes, a crime was committed. Yes, the guilty need to be punished. But unlike you, my response isn't KILL THEM ALL!

What he's saying is that if the victim was white, and the perpetrators black and not police officers, this is far from an unlikely outcome.

[Aaron MkII]

Yeah its funny, if a cop came to my door to check on me, he has to go awah if i say I'm ok and don't want help, as long as I don't have bones poking out, he has no reason/authority to stick around.

Kinda like no warrent no entry. Amazing to see the disconnect even on the forum. I wonder if our police members are even aware how they appear.

[Broomstick]

Wait...so the pendant was issued for a medical condition but when they call 911, 911 doesn't have the ability to send a specific branch?

They send whoever can get there soonest. If a customer isn't answering then the company doesn't know if the person is dead, incapacitated, being robbed, whatever. So the rationale is to get someone there as quickly as possible to check things out. As I said, if a cop is closest they'll send a cop, who can give first aid, clarify what's going on, etc.

We actually have more cops than medics/ambulances, and the cops are already out on patrol/whatever. I don't see where this is an issue. Contrary to popular myth, US cops are not all skulking around alleyways with drawn guns looking for people to shoot. A lot of the time their day can be boring routine checks along their patrol route, helping lost people, checking up on that car pulled off the road with the hood up and someone trying to fix what's wrong with it, and yes, getting the occasional donuts and coffee. Yes, fighting crime is an important part of their job, arguably the primary focus, but here in the US they are also expected to help out folks who need it.

If an ambulance is closer they'll send an ambulance - but the medics don't have the means to enter a locked home by force. The police can do that. So if a person is incapacitated and the door is locked you'll need the police anyway (and some exterior doors sold these days are almost bank vaults, you will not be able to simply kick in the door).

[Aaron MkII]

No, it's more that I wouldn't trust a cop to assess my injuries and provide care till the EMTs arrive, even our cops.

[Alkaloid]

SVPD, that' s not what I meant. In the Martin case, we have two facts not really in dispute. Martin was shot, and the police conducted an unsatisfactory investigation. I can come up with all sorts of scenarios where the police behave reasonably and that happens. None of them reflect well on the police, at best they were lazy or inept and at worst outright corrupt, but I can see how we could go from point A to B. In this case, we have two facts in dispute, Life Alert called the police to see if Chamberlain was alright, and the police tasered, beanbagged and shot Chamberlain. I can not see any way where, if the police were behaving reasonably, that situation could escalate that way. It gets worse when we factor in other things we know, that the Life Assist operator could hear what was happening and tried to cancel the 911 call and get the police to leave, that Chamberlains niece arrived and was told that no mediator was necessary, and that the police were racially abusing Chamberlain (unless we assume the lawyers are lying, given that the DA has also heard the tape I doubt they are because that is very easy to disprove). I just don't see a way that we can get from point A to B unless someone has gone completely off the deep end. I cannot come up with a scenario that explains it.

[Broomstick]

No, it's more that I wouldn't trust a cop to assess my injuries and provide care till the EMTs arrive, even our cops.

Meh, it's more a matter of "Yes, emergency confirmed, send medics" vs. "False alarm, guy rolled over medicalert in his sleep."

Otherwise, it's basic first aid - mouth-to-mouth if no breathing, CPR if no pulse, if bleeding apply direct pressure. They won't get more involved than that, but if the ambulance is delayed it could be enough to save your life.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I actually think that felony murder is a bullshit charge. Only the person who shot the gun is a murder, obviously.

That said, under the current legal system if a group of black men did the same thing to a white cop that this group of cops and firefighters did to a black man, they would all be charged; no good faith exception, no "I was just a driver" (did you read that link?), no nothing. They'd all be in jail, period.

Why would a group of black men be forcing their way into a police officers home?

I did read that link but I think you missed a part;

Mr. Holle, who had given the police a series of statements in which he seemed to admit knowing about the burglary , was convicted of first-degree murder. He is serving a sentence of life without the possibility of parole at the Wakulla Correctional Institution here, 20 miles southwest of Tallahassee.

I'm not sure what "he seemed to admit means" but it does open up the possibility that it was more than just "Even providing a car that is used to commit a crime in which a person is killed can lead a black man to get life in prison."

Now. I think charging that subject in your link with murder is a bit overboard because he wasn't there at all. Conspiracy to commit a felony would be more appropriate.

[Kamakazie Sith]

If the police acted improperly, used excessive force, or murdered someone, then those facts should stand on their own and not need yellow journalism of this sort

If the police acted improperly, used excessive force, or murdered someone then it can all be covered up until a few months later where the case can piggyback on public outrage at another similar case, where newspapers produce hit job stories to force action into investigating the cover-up.

I think you missed his point...

SVPD is not saying the police did not commit a crime.

I find it hilarious that as soon as a cop is accused of something we always get this "we have not seen the evidence, we have only seen stuff repeated through the [evil/cop-hating/incompetent/not to be trusted] press" spiel. The very fact of the matter is that the facts apparently cannot stand on their own because nothing happened.

Is that not the case though? You seem to think that this means we think the police did nothing wrong. No, Thanas. If the evidence is how they describe then all of those cops in a position to see or hear should be charged. However, you have not seen the evidence. Evidence is so critical. Hell, even eye witnesses alter the truth. Everyone lies, Thanas.

So, is the point of these threads to circle jerk each other off and say "Yea!!!! FUCKING PIGS! LIFE IN PRISON!! RAWR!! GUILTY BEFORE PROVEN INNOCENT" You tell me? I'm curious what you and others find so fucking offensive about not trusting the media, bias family members, and just waiting for the evidence to come out?

In a just world, the police also would not taser a man with a heart condition, beanbag him twice and shoot him (twice). Those facts are not in dispute.

What if that man with the heart condition had a dangerous weapon and was trying to kill a police officer? Then can they use force?

I don't know. Maybe by magic? Or maybe they just heard him comment on the lifebox?

Lying just isn't in your realm of possibilities for regular citizens, right? Only white police officers...interesting.

Why were police even called in response to a Medical duress pendant?

It varies from state to state and city to city. US Police can also be certified EMTs which means they'd be a designated medical unit. In my city we aren't medically certified but FIRE will still request us if they have a combative patient. Though we are trained in basic first aid.

Wait...so the pendant was issued for a medical condition but when they call 911, 911 doesn't have the ability to send a specific branch?

We do it here and done so you don't get cops when you need EMTs.

Zak, America seems to live in some Red Dwarfish backwards universe.

You're mistaken. 911 does have that ability and it is used often. See my post above for clarifying information.

American police appear to have a seige mentality. They get accussed of misconduct so they rally around eac other and cover things up, eventually it becomes Us vs Them and self fullfilling.

I agree. Though it doesn't help change that perception when people take the word of an article as absolute truth.

Kinda like no warrent no entry. Amazing to see the disconnect even on the forum. I wonder if our police members are even aware how they appear.

You talk about a disconnect yet you don't see your own. Who is saying a warrantless entry is ok in this situation? Who is saying that this situation is ok at all? The only thing even remotely controversial was stated by SVPD and he said "Let's wait until we see the evidence".

No, it's more that I wouldn't trust a cop to assess my injuries and provide care till the EMTs arrive, even our cops.

Even if they hold a paramedic certification?

[PeZook]

It's remarkable because it's not only a destructive attitude, but one that obviously makes their objectives harder and creates a cycle of corruption. Oh well?

The best things is that, had there not been massively mistrust the police, Chamberlain would've probably opened the door and had a quick chat with the officers. I have a feeling he didn't want to do that because he feared even talking to the cops, and just wanted them to go away.

As for the cops being first responders, what's the problem? It's not like dispatchers WON'T send an ambulance if one's needed, and if I had a medical emergency and had a choice between a couple cops in five minutes vs. nobody until an ambulance is available, I'd take the pair of cops any day. At worst, if the situation's bad enough, they can rush you to a hospital or something.

That's not the problem at all, anyways. Mistrust of the police is the problem.

[Aaron MkII]

No, it's more that I wouldn't trust a cop to assess my injuries and provide care till the EMTs arrive, even our cops.

Even if they hold a paramedic certification?

General terms KS. As for paramedic certification, is that a requirement for an officer, officers in certain states?

[Kamakazie Sith]

General terms KS. As for paramedic certification, is that a requirement for an officer, officers in certain states?

I imagine it would be for any agency that has their personnel function in a paramedic capacity. However, I can't say for certain.