Rape victims say military labels them 'crazy'

[Block]

It makes it easier to report without fear of reprisal? Thus increasing the number of cases reported and decreasing the likelyhood it gets swept under the rug? If it's reported it's investigated.

Hard to actually investigate when you do not know the compainant's name. Unless your definition of anonymous is different than mine. Besides, even if it does get investigated, people will find out eventually, and there will be reprisals.

Meaning that no one inside your chain of command knows who filed the complaint until it goes to some sort of trial, and any sort of reprisal afterwards can be reported to the EO officers or the IG and they take that kind of complain extremely seriously.

[Serafina]

The problem about rape culture is less that it makes good men rape women (or other men), but that it hides the actual rapists and encourages them.

Ever heard someone joking about rape - in person, on the web, on television? Yeah, that's part of rape culture - and it tells the rapists that they are not alone, and that their deeds are not so bad. After all, if they were, you wouldn't joke about it - just like you don't joke about jews getting gassed.

Ever heard people worrying about false reports of rape whenever a rape is discussed? That is a major reason why rapists are so rarely convicted - and the incidence of false rape reports is only 1.5% (compared to, say, 3% with auto theft).

All those prominent incidents where an (alleged) rapists go free? They are just as encouraging and normalizing as if you'd hear stories of bank robbers going free due to "lack of evidence" every few months.

Ever heard any victim-blaming - people chasting a woman who was raped because she walked down the wrong street, in the wrong clothes? Or because she went on a date with the guy who raped her? Or because she was previously too sexually promiscuous? Yes, that's also encouraging rapists - and you don't hear those comparisons for any other crimes either.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Yes, but are military doctors who supervise civilian contractors part of the chain of command?

How much influence does the chain of command exert over these contractors? Because somehow or another, people are being intentionally misdiagnosed. If it is not a direct order from a commanding officer, how the fuck does this occur, there needs to be some sort of structural reason for it. Even if that reason is that the military hires people to do the work who could not cut it in civilian practice.

No, unless the person reporting the assault is in a medical unit, they're two seperate commands. There's not a lot of proof that people are being misdiagnosed, other than claims from lawyers of people who stand to gain something, diagnoses of the same person vary from doctor to doctor based on how a person presents themself to that doctor. "I don't feel damaged" or whatever doesn't mean much. Also remember that, after 9/11 they were even taking Felons, something we'd never done, so I'm sure a lot of people slipped through with undiagnosed mental issues.

Problem with that. Personality disorder diagnoses should disproportionately go to men, not women. Men are more likely to have them, and men are also more likely to be felons by a considerable margin. When you have a sample size in the hundreds of thousands and something is happening in that population that does not happen in the general population--namely women having double the risk of being diagnose with a personality disorder--something is going on. Either they are somehow selecting women with personality disorders during recruitment more than they are men...somehow, despite them being far less common in women than they are men, or they are doing something to inflate those numbers artificially.

Given that the military has, for years, been using Personality Disorder diagnoses as a means of getting rid of psychological casualties--when by definition, a Personality Disorder is pre-existing and not the result of trauma--it makes sense that they would deal with trauma from rape in the same way they would other forms of trauma. They are just even WORSE about it, because the command structures responsible devalue women.

Meaning that no one inside your chain of command knows who filed the complaint until it goes to some sort of trial, and any sort of reprisal afterwards can be reported to the EO officers or the IG and they take that kind of complain extremely seriously.

Nope. They do not go to trial at all. It permits the victim to get medical treatment and counseling, and also permits the rapist to get away with it. Way to split the baby, Solomon.

http://militaryrapecrisiscenter.org/for-active-duty/

Within 24 hours of Service Member Smith’s restricted report, the SARC will inform the Senior Commander that an assault has occurred, and provide the Commander with non-identifying personal information/details related to the sexual assault allegation. This information includes: rank; gender; age; race; service; date; time and/or location. Information is disclosed in a manner that preserves the victim’s anonymity. Careful consideration of which details to include is of particular significance at installations or other locations where there are a limited number of minority females or female officers assigned.

The Senior Commander may notify the Criminal Investigators. However, no criminal investigation will be initiated unless originated from another source or the victim elects to come forward via unrestricted reporting. The Senior Commander identifies trends and takes appropriate measures (i.e. increased security patrols, enhanced education and training, enhanced environmental and safety measures) to prevent further sexual assaults.

[eyl]

An incidental point here I don't understand - why do psych discharges entail a loss of benefits? Aren't medical discharges considered honorable disharges?

[Alyrium Denryle]

An incidental point here I don't understand - why do psych discharges entail a loss of benefits? Aren't medical discharges considered honorable disharges?

There are two types of psych discharge.

One for pre-existing conditions like personality disorders that make you unfit to serve in the first place--in which case it is sort of like having a marriage annulled rather than getting a divorce, of having an unclaimed pre-existing condition when you sign up for an insurance policy. Your military commitment was invalid, and never properly existed in the first place. Therefore, no benefits. It is an administrative separation I think. Neither honorable, nor dishonorable. The same sort of thing they would give to gay people if they were feeling nice that day.

The other is when you are a psychological casualty. Depression, PTSD, Trauma-induced manic episodes. Shit like that. In this case, they treat you in much the same way as someone who lost a leg. In theory anyway. Sometimes (a lot of the time), they will falsely diagnose you with a personality disorder to avoid paying out benefits. Once that hit the news though, I would hope they stopped doing it.

[Gil Hamilton]

No, unless the person reporting the assault is in a medical unit, they're two seperate commands. There's not a lot of proof that people are being misdiagnosed, other than claims from lawyers of people who stand to gain something, diagnoses of the same person vary from doctor to doctor based on how a person presents themself to that doctor. "I don't feel damaged" or whatever doesn't mean much. Also remember that, after 9/11 they were even taking Felons, something we'd never done, so I'm sure a lot of people slipped through with undiagnosed mental issues.

You know the article in the OP discusses why it's unlikely that the women actually had a personality disorder, right? Aside from Aly being right that personality disorders are more common in men by a significant amount, you also don't suddenly just GET them, nor are they precisely subtle is someone has them. A personality disorder is, by definition, a long standing problem of inflexible, antisocial behavior. It's unlikely that they'd have made it as far as they did (in one case in the OP seventeen years in the service, which is pre-9/11, by the way) if they had legitimate personality disorders that made them unsuitable for service.

I guess I'm asking whether or not you actually believe these women are liars with personality disorders and that you don't believe that a military unit would use a bogus psychological evaluation to get rid of a problem rather than go through the process of persecuting a member of their unit with a serious criminal charge.

[Serafina]

An incidental point here I don't understand - why do psych discharges entail a loss of benefits? Aren't medical discharges considered honorable disharges?

In addition to what Alyrium just said, you also have to consider that society still sees psychological problems as much worse - much more the victims fault - than physiological problems. Everyone can understand a broken leg, and few will blame you if you're born paraplegic - but if you are born with/acquire a psychological problem, even something as commonplace as depression, most people will still shun and blame you.

[Aaron MkII]

It's like the "you just want money" rebuttal if you have PTSD, not many people are going to want either the stigma or to become a social pariah for what they give you. Some days its worse then the actual condition. So I just laughed at people when they bust out the fake rape shit.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Here are the DSM IV (Yes, I have one lying around) criteria for Borderline and Anti-Social personality disorder. The ones most likely to be encountered.

Anti-Social

A) There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three or more of the following:

failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest;

deception, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure;

impulsiveness or failure to plan ahead;

irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults;
reckless disregard for safety of self or others;

consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations;

lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another;

B) The individual is at least age 18 years.

C) There is evidence of conduct disorder with onset before age 15 years.

D) The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of schizophrenia or a manic episode.

Borderline

five (or more) of the following:

Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. Note: Do not include suicidal or self-injuring behavior covered in Criterion 5

A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation.

Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self.

Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., promiscuous sex, excessive spending, eating disorders, binge eating, substance abuse, reckless driving). Note: Do not include suicidal or self-injuring behavior covered in Criterion 5

Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, threats or self-injuring behavior such as cutting, interfering with the healing of scars (excoriation) or picking at oneself.

Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days).

Chronic feelings of emptiness

Inappropriate anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights).

Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation, delusions or severe dissociative symptoms

If you have either of these conditions, you do not function in the god damn military. Period. If they dont catch it at recruitment, they certainly will during basic training. The reason it can take a longer visit than half an hour to diagnose is because the shrink has to rule out other conditions like Post Traumatic Stress which can behave similarly. You do not suddenly "Manifest" these conditions. They are not like bi-polar disorder or stuff on the Schizophrenia spectrum (Schizoid, Schizotypal, Full on Schizophrenia) that manifest in someone's late teens to mid twenties. They are there from Birth and one of the criteria is that they show signs well prior to when they can be officially diagnosed.

It should ALWAYS be suspicious when the military diagnoses someone with a personality disorder after they have gone through basic, because they should have been drummed out before then, because the disorders are fucking obvious to anyone with any sort of training whatsoever. Even if not actually diagnosed in basic, they lead to the person washing out, because said person is mentally incapable of functioning for eight weeks. To discharge 31 thousand active service-persons should be a giant warning flag that something exceedingly fishy is going on with those diagnoses.

[Alyrium Denryle]

It's like the "you just want money" rebuttal if you have PTSD, not many people are going to want either the stigma or to become a social pariah for what they give you. Some days its worse then the actual condition. So I just laughed at people when they bust out the fake rape shit.

I can imagine that. Develop PTSD or even short term Battle Fatigue or whatever they are calling it these days when guys snap from being deployed too long, and you are labeled a pussy, weak etc.

I dont imagine anyone would fake that. Not when so much of their self-worth is bound up in the martial culture.

[Aaron MkII]

Exactly, and what woman wants the "damaged goods", "slut" or whatever else gets thrown around?

[Broomstick]

Also remember that, after 9/11 they were even taking Felons, something we'd never done, so I'm sure a lot of people slipped through with undiagnosed mental issues.

Incorrect. There have been felons accepted into the military before, in war time. Eastern State Penitentiary in Philadelphia, for example sent well over 100 inmates - not ex-felons, but people still serving time - into the military for service in WWI, several of whom received various medals and honors. The History Detectives TV show did a segment on them.

Of course, such things are frequently forgotten once the war is over.

[SpaceMarine93]

-> More thorough and specific psychiatric reviews of new recruits to ensure none of them would harbor tendencies that might caused to become potential rapists.

Might not be entirely practical.

What could possibly go wrong with weeding unusually high aggression out of the military!?

A) Budget, B) Commanders who don't give a shit.

[open_sketchbook]

The problem about rape culture is less that it makes good men rape women (or other men), but that it hides the actual rapists and encourages them.

Ever heard someone joking about rape - in person, on the web, on television? Yeah, that's part of rape culture - and it tells the rapists that they are not alone, and that their deeds are not so bad. After all, if they were, you wouldn't joke about it - just like you don't joke about jews getting gassed.

Ever heard people worrying about false reports of rape whenever a rape is discussed? That is a major reason why rapists are so rarely convicted - and the incidence of false rape reports is only 1.5% (compared to, say, 3% with auto theft).

All those prominent incidents where an (alleged) rapists go free? They are just as encouraging and normalizing as if you'd hear stories of bank robbers going free due to "lack of evidence" every few months.

Ever heard any victim-blaming - people chasting a woman who was raped because she walked down the wrong street, in the wrong clothes? Or because she went on a date with the guy who raped her? Or because she was previously too sexually promiscuous? Yes, that's also encouraging rapists - and you don't hear those comparisons for any other crimes either.

This this this this this this.

Studies have indicated that habitual or serial criminals tend to believe that many or most people around them either commit the same crimes or desperately want to. When you ask the average person what percentage of the population are rapists, they give really low figures, often less than one percent. You ask a convicted rapist, you get numbers like 25%, 30%, 40%.

When the average person hears a rape joke, they usually recognize it as a joke. Maybe they find it funny. But unapologetic rapists and other habitual sexual criminals don't hear a joke; they hear bragging, a secret code. They are convinced that not only is their behavior normal, but often that a literal majority of other men are also rapists, that it is just the way the world works.

Now lets shift those people into a military environment, place them in an almost entirely male context, and surround them with people who take pride in being crude and part of a philosophy that has already adjusted the taboo on killing. Then we make women the outsiders in this culture where standing by your buddies is the most important thing there is. It's becomes pretty clear how this happens.

[AniThyng]

Studies have indicated that habitual or serial criminals tend to believe that many or most people around them either commit the same crimes or desperately want to. When you ask the average person what percentage of the population are rapists, they give really low figures, often less than one percent. You ask a convicted rapist, you get numbers like 25%, 30%, 40%.

What is the actual number though? Surely <1% of the population isn't responsible for a 25% rape rate, even if 25% of the population being rapists also sounds absurd.

Or is this a sort of bias in that when you ask an "average person" how many people are "rapists" they think only in terms of the violent psycho serial killer and not "someone you know"?

[open_sketchbook]

Last I remember it's something like 8% of men. And yes, this is totally that sort of thing. Both the average person and the criminals are thinking of the "violent psycho serial killer" when they answer this question.

It's sad and ironic the low end of the criminal guesses are closer to the truth, not in absolute terms, but in the sense that you probably know somebody who has committed sexual assault.

[Zaune]

Isn't there a perfectly good pre-existing organisation that's not in the chain of command, namely the Military Police Corps and its equivalents in other branches of the service?

[Alyrium Denryle]

Isn't there a perfectly good pre-existing organisation that's not in the chain of command, namely the Military Police Corps and its equivalents in other branches of the service?

Reports to them IIRC have to go through a base commander.

[Themightytom]

Well actually Alyrium, you can function with a BPD just fine as long as your environment doesn't trigger a conflict. These nice ladies apparently dealt with the societal expectation that they overlook rape unreasonably, thus they must have had a latent personality disorder.

Ironically, I find the BPD classification to have internal consistency akin to that of the people who are diagnosed with it yet both stem from assumptions about what constitute appropriate expectations and responsibilities on the part of individuals and society.

Which is why personality disorders in general are an awkward phenomenon that need to be more carefully diagnosed and treated. They presuppose that the individual, in not conforming to the norms of society, must correct their expectations and the reasoning that stem from it, when it could in fact be society that is unjust to a class of individuals. Maybe a black guy suffered from a persecution complex back in the fifties, maybe a homosexual in the eighties was just too egotistical to acknowledge their behavior was inappropriate. Psychology, via the borderline personality disorder classification, has set itself up to seriously pass judgement on people.

[TheFeniX]

I wonder if this is also a combination of military culture and them trying to get out of paying benefits. Actually acknowledging rapes means not only compensation for the victim, but also bad publicity and lawsuits after the fact.

Eventually the rocket shrapnel was removed from Town's neck and his ears stopped leaking blood. But his hearing never really recovered, and in many ways, neither has his life. A soldier honored twelve times during his seven years in uniform, Town has spent the last three struggling with deafness, memory failure and depression. By September 2006 he and the Army agreed he was no longer combat-ready.

But instead of sending Town to a medical board and discharging him because of his injuries, doctors at Fort Carson, Colorado, did something strange: They claimed Town's wounds were actually caused by a "personality disorder." Town was then booted from the Army and told that under a personality disorder discharge, he would never receive disability or medical benefits.

Looking at something even like Worker's Compensation, many employers will do everything they can to sweep it under the rug. They'll pay medical bills out of pocket and give employees paid leave after an injury, because filing a worker's comp claim not only affects the injured employee, but safety ratings can go down (resulting in lost work, we have safety metrics based upon injury rate vs total manhours served on-site) and increased insurance costs.

Not to say discrimination isn't the name of the game, but there could be more at work rather than officers just protecting a "rape culture."

[Themightytom]

Not to say discrimination isn't the name of the game, but there could be more at work rather than officers just protecting a "rape culture."

If psychologists are in the chain of command, there's an awwwwful lot of role conflict, and even if they aren't there are probably a lot of societal boundary issues being surrounded with and interacting with a culture with enforced cohesion. Deviance is inherently antithetical to a military culture, diversity issues are inevitable.

i would say it is institutionalized discrimination finding voice via an already flawed psychiatric practice.

[Beowulf]

MEDICAL OFFICERS ARE NOT IN THE CHAIN OF COMMAND UNLESS YOU ARE IN A MEDICAL CAREER FIELD.

As to why you have restricted and unrestricted reports: the restricted reporting is designed to allow rape victims to come forward and get psychological help, without necessarily getting a huge investigation started, with potential effects on unit morale, including, but not limited to, the attacker's friends going around that she changed her mind while having sex, etc.

The documentation behind it the restricted report can also be released if the victim decides to turn it into an unrestricted report, thereby allowing the evidence to be used once the victim has come to terms with the event, or if they want to bolster another victim's claims.

[Korto]

I wonder if this is also a combination of military culture and them trying to get out of paying benefits. Actually acknowledging rapes means not only compensation for the victim, but also bad publicity and lawsuits after the fact....

...Looking at something even like Worker's Compensation, many employers will do everything they can to sweep it under the rug. They'll pay medical bills out of pocket and give employees paid leave after an injury, because filing a worker's comp claim not only affects the injured employee, but safety ratings can go down (resulting in lost work, we have safety metrics based upon injury rate vs total manhours served on-site) and increased insurance costs.

Not to say discrimination isn't the name of the game, but there could be more at work rather than officers just protecting a "rape culture."

I can understand a private company trying to cheat their way out of workers comp, but don't government organisations just assume it all comes out of the tax-payers pocket anyway? And as for the military being considered an unsafe place to work, surely that ship sailed a long time ago.

However, from what I've seen, the Australian military, and therefore perhaps the American as well, has all the knee-jerk instincts to cover-up of the police, squared. They're deathly paranoid about outside scrutiny, and fear any bad publicity that can bring it on. Cases of rape could certainly bring scrutiny, therefore the women are letting the team down by complaining. They're troublemakers.
Labeling then crazy is a great two birds/one stone deal, as it not only discourages others from complaining, but it also casts doubt upon their complaint.

[TheFeniX]

I can understand a private company trying to cheat their way out of workers comp, but don't government organisations just assume it all comes out of the tax-payers pocket anyway? And as for the military being considered an unsafe place to work, surely that ship sailed a long time ago.

There's no real distinction at the functional level between government, business, or even a charity organization. They all have their budgets and they all have people doing what they can to make their department look good so they can keep climbing the ladder.

[Alyrium Denryle]

MEDICAL OFFICERS ARE NOT IN THE CHAIN OF COMMAND UNLESS YOU ARE IN A MEDICAL CAREER FIELD.

Then how in the ever-loving fuck are women who report rapes being falsely diagnosed with "personality disorders", as well as other pychological casualties for that matter, and sent home without benefits? By medical career field, do you happen to mean actual people with MDs who would be responsible for diagnosing people with psychiatric conditions? If not, be specific.

Somewhere, somehow, a doctor is going from "rape" to "she must be crazy", and not just "she must be crazy and needs the less bad kind of medical discharge" but "she had a pre-existing condition and her military service is invalid". Why? How does this happen to an extent such that the risk of a woman being diagnosed this way is doubled over that of their male comrades? Trained psychiatrists know better than to do this shit by accident, and tend not to accept the myths regarding rape that lead to this happening. So if there is no command pressure, official or otherwise through interpersonal influence, what the fuck is the causal agent?

Here is an idea. Instead of making such a statement, enlighten the people who do not have an in-depth understanding of the freakishly complex hierarchy of military personnel and various sub-contractors by explaining it in this case, and then devote your considerable intellect to see how what is observed can occur within the framework you describe. That would actually make sense.

As fore restricted reporting... Is evidence collected during this report? Physical evidence such as rape kits and documentation of physical injuries? Or is evidence simply permitted to slide down the drain?

This seems to me like a way of reducing the costs of an investigation and keep the 30% of women who get raped during their term of service from causing "trouble". It is, at best, a bandaid that does absolutely nothing to fix the root problem.