Neo-Nazi party in Greece could enter Parliament

[Skywalker_T-65]

Oh great, they literally are Neo-Nazi's...right down to the flag. Oh and:

Holy shit.

Was my reaction too.

[PeZook]

I think it's not as much a reaction to them getting some meagre minority in parliament, as much as they fact these fucks at all exist.

[Broomstick]

Yes, extremists are everywhere. Hell, the US has had an American Nazi Party for decades based quite openly on old Adolf's ideals and policies during the Third Reich, and they even use the fucking original Nazi flag, but no one worries terribly much about them politically because they simply can't gather enough votes to get elected dog-catcher, much less anything else. (In other senses, yes, there is concern because those shitheads have engaged in violence and murder, but that's a law enforcement problem, not a political one.)

What I find alarming is that these guys seem to have jumped from less than a percent of the vote last major election to 6% this election. 6% is small, but the rate of increase is what makes me take notice. While not everyone (obviously) is willing to stomach the blatant Neo-Nazi types to the point of voting for them, presumably the percentage of those whose views are shifting to a viewpoint less extreme that Golden Dawn but still anti-immigrant, anti-austerity, and so forth is also increasing. This will make it easier for Golden Dawn to engage in violence and harassment of their chosen scapegoat(s). The fact that many of those scapegoats are visible minorities in Greece just makes them that much easier to target.

Count me among those who don't expect Greece to roll over Poland (or anywhere else), but even if their damage is limited solely to Greece it would still be a bad thing.

As for that flag - too cute how their apologists say, no, no, it's NOT a swastika, it's an ancient Greek symbol! Well, yes, it is, but it's been tricked out to resemble the Nazi swastika (which is also an ancient symbol) as closely as possible. Who the fuck do they think they're fooling?

[OneEyedTeddyMcGrew]

Wow! What a clusterfuck.

Long story short. The pro-austerity parties (PASOK and the New Democrats) don't have enough to form a majority of 151 seats. At best they can manage 149, but since party loyalty is a rather...flexible doctrine at the best of times in Greek politics and the other parties are rabidly anti-austerity that's basically worse than useless. Neither do the anti-austerity parties have enough to get a majority either. A grand coalition of the left-wing anti-austerity parties; SYRIZA, the Independent Greeks, the Communists and Dimar only gets you to 130 seats. Barring a minor miracle neither the pro- nor anti-austerity parties are going to go into government together either, since whichever anti-austerity party jumped into bed with PASOK/ND would make the Lib Dems look like paragons of spinal fortitude to the electorate. PASOK were making noises about supporting a ND-SYRIZA-Dimar coalition, but that went out of the window when both SYRIZA and Dimar told the ND to go and fuck themselves. Breaking the unofficial cordon sanitaire around Golden Dawn is obviously out of the question as well (for damn good reason).

Looks like new elections set for around 10-17th June, where PASOK and the ND will pray that they get enough of a vote to bump them up to a majority based on the dual power of blood-curdling threats on what will happen to Greece if they don't get in and happy thoughts. Nevermind the fact that the reaction by the masses to PASOK-ND getting in again by the magic of electoral system voodoo when they barely got a third of the popular vote (for some bat-shit reason the Greek electoral system automatically gives a bonus of around 50 seats to the largest party) will probably make the current unrest look like a mildly bad-tempered tea party. These are "interesting times" in the Chinese curse sense of the term.

So yeah, see you all in a few weeks. -.-

[OneEyedTeddyMcGrew]

Apologies for the double-post, but this is pretty fun as well. Somebody went to the trouble of putting up what the results would have been if the "50 seat bonus to the largest party" rule and the 3% minimum to get into Parliament rule didn't apply. (ie: a completely proportional system)

ND 58 seats
SYRIZA 50 seats
PASOK 40 seats
Dimar 31 seats
KKE 25 seats
Golden Dawn 21 seats
Democratic Left 18 seats
Greens 9 seats
LAOS 9 seats
Democratic Alliance 8 seats
Creation Again (Centre-Right) 6 seats
Liberal Alliance 5 seats
ANTARSYA (Trotskyists) 4 seats
Social Agreement (Social Democrats) 3 seats
OKHI Movement (Centre-Left) 3 seats
No Pay Movement (Coalition of Independent Candidates) 3 seats
Leage of National Unity (Patriotic Right) 2 seats
Union of Centrists 2 seats
Pirate Party 1 seat
Society (Christian Democrats) 1 seat
Marxist-Leninist KKE 1 seat

21 different parties...that's Weimar Germany-esque fragmentation.

[folti78]

Didn't a semi-fascist party recently take power in Hungary and make some unsavory constitutional changes? The story sort of disappeared after a week in the States, so I haven't heard how that situation developed.

Fidesz. Now, these guys are a threat. They practically want to turn Hungary into a mixture of Franco-Spain and Russia. They have made strides with that as well. And predictably, they are now in conflict with the EU and will get slammed hard if indications are any favor.

Yes, athough they don't appear to have any fixed ideology apart from cementing their current position. Heck, Orbán and his lose lackeys change their tune about any issue every other week if needed or depending whether they spead to domestic or foreign media. And no, they won't be slammed for their behaviour, the country will. They installed a few loopholes to allow that and use the media to disperse false propaganda about the EU and other international detractors.

However, it is worth noting they got a parliamentary majority due to elections going their way. THat is different from six percent as in Greece - Fides is a widespread movement that captured majorities.

FIDESZ was one of the two major parties since the late 90s with more and more efficient media and PR. The nearest equivalent of Golden Dawn would be the far-right Jobbik, who managed to work their way up from 1.6% in 2006 to 16% in the 2010 elections. Since last year, they upped the fascist propaganda too and gaining popuarity.

[Col. Crackpot]

Holy shit.

Holy Shit, indeed. Doesn't the EU Constitution prohibit the display of Nazi-esque symbolism or is that just Germany? Not that it would apply here as it seems to be changed just enough, but...

[Malagar]

Holy shit.

Holy Shit, indeed. Doesn't the EU Constitution prohibit the display of Nazi-esque symbolism or is that just Germany? Not that it would apply here as it seems to be changed just enough, but...

No, that's just Germany.
The Danish Nazis (a bunch of incompetent and utterly marginalized losers) enjoy waving swastikas around whenever they go out.

[Skywalker_T-65]

<Snip Greek Political parties>

Wow, the Greek political scene is fractured like you wouldn't believe. And I thought America (if the parties other than the GOP/Dems even mattered) was bad. And am I the only one who finds it funny that they have a 'Pirate Party'?

And there is no denying that flag is Nazi inspired, no denying it at all.

[mr friendly guy]

Two sort of related questions.

1. Why would they support Nazi's given the Nazi's invaded Greece. I am aware lots of nations have fringe groups which support Nazi's even though if the Nazi's were around they either invaded the nation or would have treated harshly that nation's ethnic groups. I am sure they each have their bullshit reasons, but I am interested in Golden Dawn's reasons.

2. If we are saying that poor economic conditions make people swing towards authoritarianism, does the opposite also apply? That is good economic conditions will make countries which we consider authoritarian more liberal?

[Purple]

2. If we are saying that poor economic conditions make people swing towards authoritarianism, does the opposite also apply? That is good economic conditions will make countries which we consider authoritarian more liberal?

Well there does exist a distinct trend seen in authoritarian countries that get a bust in standard of living for the people to also start demanding increased liberties. Although that usually ends up in a revolution that demolishes both the standard of living and any dreams of liberty. But that's a discussion for another time.

It only makes sense really. When people are frightened and worried for their survival they feel the need for a strong government that can muscle its way to ensuring stability. When things are going well however and people don't have to worry about just surviving they can start focusing their energy on making their lives happier. And that in turn means demanding more freedom to do so.

[Zaune]

Apologies for the double-post, but this is pretty fun as well. Somebody went to the trouble of putting up what the results would have been if the "50 seat bonus to the largest party" rule and the 3% minimum to get into Parliament rule didn't apply. (ie: a completely proportional system)

ND 58 seats
SYRIZA 50 seats
PASOK 40 seats
Dimar 31 seats
KKE 25 seats
Golden Dawn 21 seats
Democratic Left 18 seats
Greens 9 seats
LAOS 9 seats
Democratic Alliance 8 seats
Creation Again (Centre-Right) 6 seats
Liberal Alliance 5 seats
ANTARSYA (Trotskyists) 4 seats
Social Agreement (Social Democrats) 3 seats
OKHI Movement (Centre-Left) 3 seats
No Pay Movement (Coalition of Independent Candidates) 3 seats
Leage of National Unity (Patriotic Right) 2 seats
Union of Centrists 2 seats
Pirate Party 1 seat
Society (Christian Democrats) 1 seat
Marxist-Leninist KKE 1 seat

21 different parties...that's Weimar Germany-esque fragmentation.

That might atually be why you have the "fifty bonus seats to the biggest party" rule.

[Simon_Jester]

Also, with what, 300 seats in the parliament... that's probably why you have a 3% minimum. Put that rule in and about ten or so of the parties on that list vanish.

[Sea Skimmer]

Unemployment in Greece is near 22%, and 6% of voters voted for Nazis. This isn't exactly an epic endorsement of the popularity of such a radical party as others have said, and its worth comparing to the actual Nazis.. When the Nazis took power in Germany in 1933 unemployment was around 26% but they got 44% of vote with no other party managing much over 20%. Pretty overwhelming difference.

[OneEyedTeddyMcGrew]

Also, with what, 300 seats in the parliament... that's probably why you have a 3% minimum. Put that rule in and about ten or so of the parties on that list vanish.

You'll get no argument from me on that. It was intended more as a thought exercise and to highlight the fact that the pro-austerity parties have been resoundingly rejected. Regarding the "50 extra seats" rule, it's fairly obvious that it was designed to enable the largest party to gain the whip hand in any coalition negotiations. Whether it's a good method is another matter entirely however.

Anyway, the point still stands that if ND/PASOK manage a coalition following the next election (which seems to be what they're aiming for and what the Troika definitely want) the fact that two parties standing on a platform that is utterly despised by the electorate managed to regain power with little more than a third of the popular vote (since I don't see their share increasing that much even assuming their vote share creeps up to the point where they can get a workable majority) through the magic of electoral system voodoo is only going to pour gasoline on the fire as far as the masses are concerned. The crazy thing is that such a result is probably the best (in the "least worst" sense of the term) outcome. God only knows what will happen if they're in the same position as they are now after the next election.

EDIT: And just to be clear, I'm 99% sure there's going to be another election. The only options for a majority are if one of the anti-austerity parties decides to sign their own death warrant (hopefully politically instead of literally) and break ranks to jump into bed with ND/PASOK, or if Golden Dawn are invited to join any government. I'm assuming I don't have to explain why the latter is an incredibly bad idea.

[Narkis]

1. Why would they support Nazi's given the Nazi's invaded Greece. I am aware lots of nations have fringe groups which support Nazi's even though if the Nazi's were around they either invaded the nation or would have treated harshly that nation's ethnic groups. I am sure they each have their bullshit reasons, but I am interested in Golden Dawn's reasons.

Golden Dawn's leader had gone on record saying that Hitler was a true visionary, the greatest man of the 20th century, and "the apostle of the revolution of the bent cross". No idea how he reconciles the invasion and brutal occupation that followed. Their new voters seem to range from "Hilter was a lunatic but even a broken clock is right twice a day", to "I don't care about Hitler, but someone has to do something about these damned immigrants" with the occasional "Wait, these guys are Nazis? Who knew?". Hopefuly the increased scrutiny will make enough of these people to reconsider and vote for something, anything, else next month.

A repeat of the elections seems all but certain. ND leader Samaras failed today to get the necessary support for a coalition government. Tomorrow it'll be the turn of SYRIZA leader, Alexis Tsipras, but unfortunately it's very unlikely that he'll succeed, since A) the communist party leader, Aleka Papariga, has repeatedly refused to consider the prospect of cooperating with anyone, even with her as the Prime Minister, and B) even if they did agree, they'd still not have enough MPs to pass the vote of confidence.

I hope the parties of the left can increase their presence enough to get a majority in the next elections. It should be easier now that they've shown it's actually feasible and not just a pipe dream, but it's still pretty hard. The deck has been thoroughly stacked against them.

[Zaune]

Unemployment in Greece is near 22%, and 6% of voters voted for Nazis. This isn't exactly an epic endorsement of the popularity of such a radical party as others have said, and its worth comparing to the actual Nazis.. When the Nazis took power in Germany in 1933 unemployment was around 26% but they got 44% of vote with no other party managing much over 20%. Pretty overwhelming difference.

One can't really make a like-for-like comparison here, though, because nobody who voted for the original Nazis could have known what they were letting themselves in for.

[CaptHawkeye]

You mean aside from the fact that the party's leader published a well known book outlining every part of his plan, including his desire to invade sovereign nations and enslave their populations?

[Force Lord]

You mean aside from the fact that the party's leader published a well known book outlining every part of his plan, including his desire to invade sovereign nations and enslave their populations?

Um, how many people pre-WWII (or pre-Munich Agreement) even bothered to read Mein Kampf, let alone take Hitler's intentions seriously?

[Alkaloid]

See, this is just weird. I get the shift to the right, I even get the fascism, people are scared and want someone to save them, they are reacting out of fear. I can even understand how a fascist political party can exist, but I cannot for the life of me work out why it is forming in Greece and identifies with the Nazi party specifically.

Germany, the Scandinavian area, England, the US, Canada and Australia I understand that, the majority of people there fall into the racial groups Hitler found 'superior,' so saying Hitler was right is revolting, but makes sense. Greece, I'm pretty sure best case scenario there was Greece and Hitlers Germany left each other alone and Greece never got anything that the Germans wanted, they weren't good enough for Hitler to rule but weren't black gay or Jewish so he didn't feel particularly compelled to kill them either.

But now a political party that describes Hitler as a visionary, and thus presumably subscribes to his view that the Aryan peoples are just flat out better than themselves exists and opposes the EU, despite the EU essentially being run by people who are, well, Aryan, and is still somehow obtaining a modicum of success. It's just weird.

[PeZook]

Most slavic and other "non-aryan" (i use parentheses because what the Nazis defined as "aryan" was not actually what the common definition is...) Nazis concentrate more on the anti-jewish part Hitler's raging insanity, and just ignore the rest.

[Siege]

I'm not even sure Golden Dawn is actively invested in the whole Aryan end of far-right nuttery. I suspect the people who voted for them did so more out of disgust with the mainstream Greek political parties they perceive as having sold them and the country out, than out of any master race convictions (barring the usual far-right loathing of immigrants anyway). As far as I can tell from this end of Europe they seem to run more on typical fascist 'by beating on immigrants we can make this country great again' rhetoric.

[folti78]

And am I the only one who finds it funny that they have a 'Pirate Party'?

There are many EU countries which got a Pirate Party, the most prominent ones are in Germany(where they already had some success in elections) and in Sweden. They formed after the high profile raids against Piratebay in the late 2000s.

Holy shit.

Holy Shit, indeed. Doesn't the EU Constitution prohibit the display of Nazi-esque symbolism or is that just Germany? Not that it would apply here as it seems to be changed just enough, but...

Depends on the country it's illegal in Germany and Hungary for example.

1. Why would they support Nazi's given the Nazi's invaded Greece. I am aware lots of nations have fringe groups which support Nazi's even though if the Nazi's were around they either invaded the nation or would have treated harshly that nation's ethnic groups. I am sure they each have their bullshit reasons, but I am interested in Golden Dawn's reasons.

Because take the ideology and the visuals from the Nazis, while leaving out the inconvenient parts and replacing the original objects of hate with something more applicable locally? Like hate against the Roma in Hungary and illegal immigrants in Greece.

[Simon_Jester]

My impression is that these parties take advantage of one thing.

Nearly everyone in Europe perceives the Nazis (with reason) as having been darkly evil and incredibly dangerous... and that creates a perception of strength. They were a powerful enemy, and therefore powerful. When you feel powerless, and the establishment has no answers for you, there is a certain satisfaction in deliberately drawing on a legacy of power associated with 'the bad guys.' The establishment doesn't want you to think like this, it isn't acceptable as part of the received wisdom... and so it must be a powerful secret!

Could something like that be part of the thought process? It helps to explain the picking and choosing aspect. These people aren't adopting cloned German Naziism as a self-consistent ideology. They're taking the parts of the "dark side lore" of Naziism that suit them, and using them to build a narrative that appeals to disaffected right-wingers in European countries.

[Alkaloid]

See, I buy that as the reason people vote for them, but it doesn't seem to be a plan going in. Frankly, parties like that seem to be so focused on their own agenda and so lacking in self awareness that this sort of cynical manipulation should be beyond them. And it doesn't work the other way either, the far left can't display a hammer and sickle or something that clearly resembles them without ridicule, and the USSR was a much scarier threat for a much longer time in living memory for a far larger number of people than the Nazis were.