Ugly race row in Fiji beauty pageant

[Todeswind]

Again proof against the fallacy that only white people can be racist.

I'd really love to know where this 'fallacy' came from, as I've only never heard it expressed by anyone. It seems to represent the classic strawman.

Actually there are a lot of people who do believe that only white people can be racist in the USA. My high school English teacher insisted this in class, she actually gave me a detention for disagreeing with her about this, claimed that I was being "Insensitive to black people" for claiming that "black people seem to hold some racist views." Essentially they claim that one must be the majority for one to be racist. And yes, it is stupid as fuck.

[Spoonist]

There might be a row in Poland, but I can guarantee you pulling a crown of somebody's head because they do not look nordic enough will not happen in Sweden/Finland.

You are quite right although finland is a bit worse of when it comes to nationalism and thus latent racism, but they are close.
In sweden we have this almost pageant like Lucia thing, as in the saint yes, its a traditional heavy bringing the light ceremony on the 13th Dec. (With an equally traditional get drunk as fast as possible afterparty among the young). With the tradition of a white blond girl with candles in her hair. Go back to 60's and 70's and they would be all blond. Like this add for VOLVO pv back then:



Nowadays though it usually looks like this:



The candidates are decided by popular vote - so no jury. And already as far back as 99 (earliest I could find) we get this:

So consistently non-blonds non-nordic looks get voted as most popular and thus win.
Usually some conservatives/racists come out and complain but is as always ignored by the masses.

[Hillary]

Again proof against the fallacy that only white people can be racist.

I'd really love to know where this 'fallacy' came from, as I've only never heard it expressed by anyone. It seems to represent the classic strawman.

Actually there are a lot of people who do believe that only white people can be racist in the USA. My high school English teacher insisted this in class, she actually gave me a detention for disagreeing with her about this, claimed that I was being "Insensitive to black people" for claiming that "black people seem to hold some racist views." Essentially they claim that one must be the majority for one to be racist. And yes, it is stupid as fuck.

Point taken - I always forget that things are likely different in the states. It is, as you say, absurd and helps no one.

[Metahive]

Again proof against the fallacy that only white people can be racist.

I'd really love to know where this 'fallacy' came from, as I've only never heard it expressed by anyone. It seems to represent the classic strawman.

Actually there are a lot of people who do believe that only white people can be racist in the USA. My high school English teacher insisted this in class, she actually gave me a detention for disagreeing with her about this, claimed that I was being "Insensitive to black people" for claiming that "black people seem to hold some racist views." Essentially they claim that one must be the majority for one to be racist. And yes, it is stupid as fuck.

If your claim actually was "Black people hold racist views" as in "it's inherent to blackness to be racially challenged" then your teacher was right in calling you insensitive since that would have been a racist thing to say.
Black people can hold racist views just as much as white people, that's not a controversial statement in my opinion and if that's what you wanted to say then you expressed it poorly.

[Bakustra]

Racism is largely a societal factor anyhow, so individual racism is indeed far less important and pretending that minority racism is equivalent or comparable to majority racism is dangerous and fallacious.

[Lord Zentei]

It depends on the context: in the case of specific racist actions directed against individuals by individuals, then minority racism is not less bad than majority racism. OTOH, when discussing the net impact that racist views have on a society, obviously the majority racism causes more harm overall.

In any case, Fiji is overwhelmingly non-white, so by that standard wouldn't the alleged racism described by the OP be racism of the "worse" kind?

[Todeswind]

I'd really love to know where this 'fallacy' came from, as I've only never heard it expressed by anyone. It seems to represent the classic strawman.

Actually there are a lot of people who do believe that only white people can be racist in the USA. My high school English teacher insisted this in class, she actually gave me a detention for disagreeing with her about this, claimed that I was being "Insensitive to black people" for claiming that "black people seem to hold some racist views." Essentially they claim that one must be the majority for one to be racist. And yes, it is stupid as fuck.

If your claim actually was "Black people hold racist views" as in "it's inherent to blackness to be racially challenged" then your teacher was right in calling you insensitive since that would have been a racist thing to say.
Black people can hold racist views just as much as white people, that's not a controversial statement in my opinion and if that's what you wanted to say then you expressed it poorly.

I don't remember the exact phrasing of an discussion I had with my English teacher close to ten years ago but the content of what I said was to the effect of "Black are capable of holding racist views as well."

[lance]

From my understanding very diverse and homogenous places tend to be the least racist. The first due to having to associate with people of other races and cultures because you have to have interaction with them.

The latter due to it being hard to blame minority X that you can't get a job, for all the crime, and all the bad things when their are 5 black people in a city of 10,000

[Thanas]

Racism is largely a societal factor anyhow, so individual racism is indeed far less important and pretending that minority racism is equivalent or comparable to majority racism is dangerous and fallacious.

I don't think anybody is saying that here, but I agree that the danger exists.

[rematog]

Lance, you neglect to think on greater society's affects on attitudes. Someone in a lily white Nebraska farming community could easily be a raving racist.... I've lived in Iowa.... before the Civil War, Iowa passed a number of laws to prevent immigration of blacks into Iowa.

[Tiriol]

There might be a row in Poland, but I can guarantee you pulling a crown of somebody's head because they do not look nordic enough will not happen in Sweden/Finland.

You are quite right although finland is a bit worse of when it comes to nationalism and thus latent racism, but they are close.

I don't think that's actually true, considering that our current Miss Finland happens to look like this:


When you compare her to some other contestants, the differences are more obvious:


She definetely doesn't fit some notion of "pure Nordic" and yet she still is Miss Finland.

[xerex]

She definetely doesn't fit some notion of "pure Nordic" and yet she still is Miss Finland.

she's half arab isnt she ? so she doesnt fit any notion of pure nordic .

[Spoonist]

There might be a row in Poland, but I can guarantee you pulling a crown of somebody's head because they do not look nordic enough will not happen in Sweden/Finland.

You are quite right although finland is a bit worse of when it comes to nationalism and thus latent racism, but they are close.

I don't think that's actually true, considering that our current Miss Finland happens to look like this.

Apologies if that is how it was perceived, I meant that we are close, not that fins wouldnt chose like that.
I was refering clumsely to immigration policies and the votes on the 'truefinns'/Perussuomalaiset. Which show that fins are more nationalistic etc.

[RIPP_n_WIPE]

Wow gone for a day and already another page...

Uhm???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Sweden
Some of our sami, somali, balkan, persians or lebanese immigrants certainly wouldn't look "nordic". Sweden have had one of the most liberal refugee policies in the world. for imstance
Quote:
According to Washington-based Refugees International the U.S. has admitted fewer than 800 Iraqi refugees since the invasion, Sweden had accepted 18,000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_refugees

Then why wouldn't immigrants from finland be labeled non-swedes in statistics? I don't get it?

The idea is that the average Finn and the average swede don't look terribly different so a beauty pageant contestant from Sweden with Finnish ancestry probably wouldn't look that different from the Swedish mean. I doubt that could be said for the average Somali or Iraqi.

Therefore I can see how it might irk some Fijians that their representative at the Miss World pageant doesn't look like a "Fijian" is suppose to look like.

If Miss UK was black or Asian, there would be a vocal minority opposed this, as she wouldn't look British enough. Guess what, that would be racist as well.

I didn't say it wouldn't be racist, I said, at least in the Fijians case I could see their point of view and that I understand where they are coming from. The United States what with it's history as an immigrant nation isn't really the right analogue to compare to Fiji, which is why I mentioned one of the Nordic countries or Poland. Ironically ethnic Fijians comprise a smaller portion of their countries demographics than Swedes or Norwegians do in theirs.

There might be a row in Poland, but I can guarantee you pulling a crown of somebody's head because they do not look nordic enough will not happen in Sweden/Finland.

*shrug*. When I was in Sweden most of the Swedes I interacted with seemed pretty nonchalant about the plight of folks from the 3rd world. While the government might take them in in droves, the average swedes (the ones who would talk any way) seemed pretty blase. They thought the war was bad an all and were happy about their governments involvement (or lack thereof) and denouncement but didn't seem to be super overtly concerned. So from that I gathered there really wouldn't be an issue if someone part of a franchise really did strip someone in a beauty pageant of their crown who wasn't "Swedish".

[amigocabal]

Again proof against the fallacy that only white people can be racist.

I'd really love to know where this 'fallacy' came from, as I've only never heard it expressed by anyone. It seems to represent the classic strawman.

Actually there are a lot of people who do believe that only white people can be racist in the USA. My high school English teacher insisted this in class, she actually gave me a detention for disagreeing with her about this, claimed that I was being "Insensitive to black people" for claiming that "black people seem to hold some racist views." Essentially they claim that one must be the majority for one to be racist. And yes, it is stupid as fuck.

I wonder if you had asked her if South African apartheid was not racist on the basis that whites were the minority there at the time.

[Thanas]

There might be a row in Poland, but I can guarantee you pulling a crown of somebody's head because they do not look nordic enough will not happen in Sweden/Finland.

*shrug*. When I was in Sweden most of the Swedes I interacted with seemed pretty nonchalant about the plight of folks from the 3rd world. While the government might take them in in droves, the average swedes (the ones who would talk any way) seemed pretty blase. They thought the war was bad an all and were happy about their governments involvement (or lack thereof) and denouncement but didn't seem to be super overtly concerned. So from that I gathered there really wouldn't be an issue if someone part of a franchise really did strip someone in a beauty pageant of their crown who wasn't "Swedish".

What now? Please explain the logic behind that thought process.

[Bakustra]

I wonder if you had asked her if South African apartheid was not racist on the basis that whites were the minority there at the time.

In sociology, "majority" and "minority" are used to refer to the distribution of power, and so this sort of statement is idiotic, as would insisting that women are not a minority because they are a physical majority in a number of countries. It's nothing more than playing a semantical game to avoid any real discussion.

[Todeswind]

A minority in that context is a culturally, ethnically, or racially distinct group that coexists with but is subordinate to a more dominant group. That being said it is still stupid and uneducated to claim that a minority group inherently is incapable of expressing racism as my professor was claiming to be fact.

[Blayne]

From my understanding very diverse and homogenous places tend to be the least racist. The first due to having to associate with people of other races and cultures because you have to have interaction with them.

The latter due to it being hard to blame minority X that you can't get a job, for all the crime, and all the bad things when their are 5 black people in a city of 10,000

While I think this is technically true there are other idiosyncrasies that make up for it that may make living in a ethnically homogeneous country uncomfortable for a minority. African American's for example especially if you're on the tall side in Japan have to deal with a lot of shit despite the complete lack of malice involved; because of the lack of interaction means there is a profound ignorance which leads to awkward situations.

Sure they might not be racist but that's a poor man's comfort when it still happens.

[Todeswind]

In Japan the issue isn't "Black" it's anything that isn't strictly Japanese. As far as the majority of my students are concerned there are three ethnic groups in the world, Japanese, Chinese, Korean, and Other.

A lot of the truly racist things I've experienced in Japan have more to do with misinformation and lack of experience. It's especially pronounced in comparison to other countries I've lived in, however, due to the complete lack of shame involved.

[Tiriol]

*shrug*. When I was in Sweden most of the Swedes I interacted with seemed pretty nonchalant about the plight of folks from the 3rd world. While the government might take them in in droves, the average swedes (the ones who would talk any way) seemed pretty blase. They thought the war was bad an all and were happy about their governments involvement (or lack thereof) and denouncement but didn't seem to be super overtly concerned. So from that I gathered there really wouldn't be an issue if someone part of a franchise really did strip someone in a beauty pageant of their crown who wasn't "Swedish".

What? Swedes weren't crying tears of blood whenever the Third World was brought up and you somehow think that they don't care or would be happy about someone stripping a Miss Sweden of her crown simply because she was not "Swedish"? Do you have any idea how offensive that thought process is?

[Spoonist]

There might be a row in Poland, but I can guarantee you pulling a crown of somebody's head because they do not look nordic enough will not happen in Sweden/Finland.

*shrug*. When I was in Sweden most of the Swedes I interacted with seemed pretty nonchalant about the plight of folks from the 3rd world. While the government might take them in in droves, the average swedes (the ones who would talk any way) seemed pretty blase. They thought the war was bad an all and were happy about their governments involvement (or lack thereof) and denouncement but didn't seem to be super overtly concerned. So from that I gathered there really wouldn't be an issue if someone part of a franchise really did strip someone in a beauty pageant of their crown who wasn't "Swedish".

I'm going to guess that you were not in an urban area and if so agreed on the non-talking bit. As in most swedes regardless of view wouldn't talk much about immigration and racism with someone outside their circle, its a sensitive topic after all. Especially if it seems the person had an agenda. Just like they avoid politics, religion etc.

Which war was that?

Statistically nordics gives much more of their personal money to aid orgs in other parts of the world than average. Countries like the US doesn't even come close. So on average they put their own money on the line.

Then most pageants etc in scandinavia is based on votes and not juries, so stripping anyone of a crown for any reason at all would be a big thing. Heck, some people were upset that they couldn't vote on the winner in Next Top Model - Sweden etc.

Finally the journalists would have a field day with such a thing, politicians would flock like flies to shit, the anti-racist youth brigade would riot, etc. It would be much much worse than the canadian gender thingie. Sure some swedes wouldn't care, but those wouldn't be representative of the pop or scandinavians in general.

Do you have any idea how offensive that thought process is?

I don't see it as particularly offensive, just completely ignorant and a bit dumb.

[Questor]

Spoonist, can I get a source on the charitable giving claim? The only per capita stats I could find on a quick search were from almost a decade ago, and paint a different picture than you do, but I'm not confident in my source.

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=236671

[Irbis]

Now if you're saying that because of those nations being relatively "progressive" I'd agree and just swap for Poland.

Say what?

So, Poland is the next boogeyman? I can definitely say that if someone of non-Polish descent ever won such a contest, no one outside of usual nationalist types would produce reaction any different than Germans or Swedes, seeing how progressive top media here are.

From my understanding very diverse and homogenous places tend to be the least racist. The first due to having to associate with people of other races and cultures because you have to have interaction with them.

The latter due to it being hard to blame minority X that you can't get a job, for all the crime, and all the bad things when their are 5 black people in a city of 10,000

I assure you ignorance created by homogeneity can be just as good or even better breeding ground for hatred than actual minorities daring to take jobs. After all, when you don't see how false your opinions on minority X are you don't have any impulse to change them.

[Blayne]

In Japan the issue isn't "Black" it's anything that isn't strictly Japanese. As far as the majority of my students are concerned there are three ethnic groups in the world, Japanese, Chinese, Korean, and Other.

A lot of the truly racist things I've experienced in Japan have more to do with misinformation and lack of experience. It's especially pronounced in comparison to other countries I've lived in, however, due to the complete lack of shame involved.

I'm a little worried about derailing this so this will be my last response and would be happy to take this to pm if there's still disagreement.

While again this is largely true and I agree there is a lot of overlap in how Japanese people treat white and non white foreigners it isn't strictly true that they treat all non white and white foreigners the same. Blacks are treated/interacted with a little differently from whites in Japan but I completely agree it is because of misinformation (or lack of information thereof) and inexperience and not actual racism per se.