Oops, I meant his social circles in real life (you know, that place away from the computer ), which would presumably be Germany in his case. In Germany, the prevailing social attitudes are vastly different than they are in the US. Having recently spoken to a German scientist who was vacationing in Canada about his feelings and his impressions of others in his country, it appears to me that the level of decidedly anti-US sentiment in Germany is very high.Knife wrote:I visit his site on a regular basis, in fact I am trying to get something into the JoAT. I do not share his opinion on many things.In his own social circles, I'm sure that all of his peers share his opinion.
WTF is this shit?!!? I'm boycotting EAS now.
Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital
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"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
I think that in Germany, opposition to US foreign policy is rather high. I wouldn't equate that with anti-Americanism, necessarily.
If I am in fact wrong, blame the German foreign exchange student in my global studies class
If I am in fact wrong, blame the German foreign exchange student in my global studies class
Howedar is no longer here. Need to talk to him? Talk to Pick.
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Re: WTF is this shit?!!? I'm boycotting EAS now.
Hey Einy don't boycott the site because the Site Admins an idiot. Afterall the site has many saving graces. Anyway he was right in the first sentence, upto the first comma. But just because the war is Unlawful and more than likely Shrubs personal vendetta writ large with natioanl assets, doesn't mean we can't support the troops now they are committed out there.
"Do you know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I get and beat you with, until you understand whose in f***ing command here!" Jayne : Firefly
"The officers can stay in the admin building and read the latest Tom Clancy novel thinking up new OOBs based on it." Coyote
HAB Tankspotter - like trainspotting but with the thrill of 125mm retaliation if they spot you back
"The officers can stay in the admin building and read the latest Tom Clancy novel thinking up new OOBs based on it." Coyote
HAB Tankspotter - like trainspotting but with the thrill of 125mm retaliation if they spot you back
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What he said.Howedar wrote:I think that in Germany, opposition to US foreign policy is rather high. I wouldn't equate that with anti-Americanism, necessarily.
Basically, the Germans (and quite a few other Europeans) are angry at American Foreign Policy under Bush, not angry at Americans in general.
"Do you know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I get and beat you with, until you understand whose in f***ing command here!" Jayne : Firefly
"The officers can stay in the admin building and read the latest Tom Clancy novel thinking up new OOBs based on it." Coyote
HAB Tankspotter - like trainspotting but with the thrill of 125mm retaliation if they spot you back
"The officers can stay in the admin building and read the latest Tom Clancy novel thinking up new OOBs based on it." Coyote
HAB Tankspotter - like trainspotting but with the thrill of 125mm retaliation if they spot you back
Re: WTF is this shit?!!? I'm boycotting EAS now.
*places head and hands and slowly shakes* It is amazing to me, that if a law (resolution) is made (try 17) and it is enforced, that it is then illegal due to the fact that some of the people who made the law (again resolution) didn't really mean it (France, Germany, ect..).Rob Wilson wrote:Hey Einy don't boycott the site because the Site Admins an idiot. Afterall the site has many saving graces. Anyway he was right in the first sentence, upto the first comma. But just because the war is Unlawful and more than likely Shrubs personal vendetta writ large with natioanl assets, doesn't mean we can't support the troops now they are committed out there.
1441 plainly says that any member nation can enforce it, it plainly says that 'serious consqueces' will be had, if they (Iraq) does not comply. Now this resolution (1441) was unaminously voted on by the security council. Why is it unlawful, illegal, illegitimate, or any other critism, for the US and 40 other countries to enforce the UN resolution. If they didn't mean it, they shouldn't have voted 'yes' on it.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
Re: WTF is this shit?!!? I'm boycotting EAS now.
Which doesn't mean an automatic trigger for war.Knife wrote: it plainly says that 'serious consqueces' will be had, if they (Iraq) does not comply.
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5 months equal automatic? And to quantify that, thats 5 months since 1441 which stated to 'immeadiatly comply' on top of a decade of trying to get the fucker to comply. Hardly automatic.Which doesn't mean an automatic trigger for war
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Re: WTF is this shit?!!? I'm boycotting EAS now.
Actually it doesn't.Knife wrote:*places head and hands and slowly shakes* It is amazing to me, that if a law (resolution) is made (try 17) and it is enforced, that it is then illegal due to the fact that some of the people who made the law (again resolution) didn't really mean it (France, Germany, ect..).Rob Wilson wrote:Hey Einy don't boycott the site because the Site Admins an idiot. Afterall the site has many saving graces. Anyway he was right in the first sentence, upto the first comma. But just because the war is Unlawful and more than likely Shrubs personal vendetta writ large with natioanl assets, doesn't mean we can't support the troops now they are committed out there.
1441 plainly says that any member nation can enforce it, it plainly says that 'serious consqueces' will be had, if they (Iraq) does not comply. Now this resolution (1441) was unaminously voted on by the security council. Why is it unlawful, illegal, illegitimate, or any other critism, for the US and 40 other countries to enforce the UN resolution. If they didn't mean it, they shouldn't have voted 'yes' on it.
All it states is that Ieraq has been warned previously. Resolution 1441 only pertains to the Inspection of Iraq for WMD, it is not a resolution to allow Military force to remove Iraq's leadership.13. Recalls, in that context, that the Council has repeatedly warned Iraq that it will face serious consequences as a result of its continued violations of its obligations;
Here is the full resolution, please point to me where it says that the UN authorises the Use of Military force against Iraq?
"Do you know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I get and beat you with, until you understand whose in f***ing command here!" Jayne : Firefly
"The officers can stay in the admin building and read the latest Tom Clancy novel thinking up new OOBs based on it." Coyote
HAB Tankspotter - like trainspotting but with the thrill of 125mm retaliation if they spot you back
"The officers can stay in the admin building and read the latest Tom Clancy novel thinking up new OOBs based on it." Coyote
HAB Tankspotter - like trainspotting but with the thrill of 125mm retaliation if they spot you back
I think this show very nicely, that it authorized Member States to use all necessary means, you can argue what "is" is but lets be honest. All necessary means, means that military action is authorized.Recalling that its resolution 678 (1990) authorized Member States to use all necessary means to uphold and implement its resolution 660 (1990) of 2 August 1990 and all relevant resolutions subsequent to resolution 660 (1990) and to restore international peace and security in the area
This is showing that the cease fire (not shooting them) is based on if they accept and comly to the resolutions by the UN.Recalling that in its resolution 687 (1991) the Council declared that a ceasefire would be based on acceptance by Iraq of the provisions of that resolution, including the obligations on Iraq contained therein,
Declares that Iraq is in material breach of resolutions, which according to the cease fire agreement, voids it.1. Decides that Iraq has been and remains in material breach of its obligations under relevant resolutions, including resolution 687 (1991), in particular through Iraq’s failure to cooperate with United Nations inspectors and the IAEA, and to complete the actions required under paragraphs 8 to 13 of resolution 687 (1991);
Says if they fuck up more, they are in further breach of this and earlier resolutions, effectively making the cease fire void.4. Decides that false statements or omissions in the declarations submitted by Iraq pursuant to this resolution and failure by Iraq at any time to comply with, and cooperate fully in the implementation of, this resolution shall constitute a further material breach of Iraq’s obligations and will be reported to the Council for assessment in accordance with paragraphs 11 and 12 below;
Says that they have been warned of serious consequences, by its context I assume it means prior resolutions, thus 1441 may not lay down serious consequences but prior resolutions including the cease fire agreement do that nicely and 1441 reafirms it.13. Recalls, in that context, that the Council has repeatedly warned Iraq that it will face serious consequences as a result of its continued violations of its obligations;
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Authorized in order to achieve the original goal of ejecting Iraq from Kuwait. The original resolution never authorized an invasion of Iraq for the purpose of regime change.Knife wrote:I think this show very nicely, that it authorized Member States to use all necessary means, you can argue what "is" is but lets be honest. All necessary means, means that military action is authorized.
Thus freeing coalition forces to use whatever means are necessary in order to push Iraq out of Kuwait and keep it from invading its neighbours. There is nothing in the resolution about being able to invade Iraq and overthrow its government.Declares that Iraq is in material breach of resolutions, which according to the cease fire agreement, voids it.
No state of war was declared and no authorization for military action exists. You are citing resolutions which pertain to the ceasefire which ended a military action from ten years ago with a limited mandate. Dropping that ceasefire does not magically enlarge that mandate.
Why can't you just admit that it's illegal and try to argue on the basis of the end justifying the means? Looking for loopholes in the language only looks dishonest.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
I am not trying to look dishonest.
One can question our motives, as many do but the question of if we have the authority to attack Iraq is there and in many forms in various resolutions or atleast reafirmed in various resolutions.
P.S. Since there isn't a mod yet, do you think you should seperate this into another thread? I am ashamed to say I have hijacked it, alittle.
IIRC, WMD were always part of the situation from Resolution 678 to 1441. "authorized Member States to use all necessary means to uphold and implement its resolutions............. and all relevant resolutions subsequent to resolution....." Obviously after 12 odd years, other methods have failed to uphold the resolutions. Yes originaly it was to eject Iraq from Kuwait, but subsequent resolutions to include the cease fire, added WMD to the mix.Recalling that its resolution 678 (1990) authorized Member States to use all necessary means to uphold and implement its resolution 660 (1990) of 2 August 1990 and all relevant resolutions subsequent to resolution 660 (1990) and to restore international peace and security in the area
One can question our motives, as many do but the question of if we have the authority to attack Iraq is there and in many forms in various resolutions or atleast reafirmed in various resolutions.
P.S. Since there isn't a mod yet, do you think you should seperate this into another thread? I am ashamed to say I have hijacked it, alittle.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
- Spanky The Dolphin
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ONly deals with the expulsion of Iraq from Kuwait in 1990.Knife wrote:I think this show very nicely, that it authorized Member States to use all necessary means, you can argue what "is" is but lets be honest. All necessary means, means that military action is authorized.Recalling that its resolution 678 (1990) authorized Member States to use all necessary means to uphold and implement its resolution 660 (1990) of 2 August 1990 and all relevant resolutions subsequent to resolution 660 (1990) and to restore international peace and security in the area
Here are resolutions 660 and 678.
Both are limited mandates to deal with the matter at hand. Niether allow the invasion of Iraq 10 years later.
Except this document deals only with pushing Iraq out of Kuwait and near the beginning has the line 'Affirming the commitment of all Member States to the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of Kuwait and Iraq". It was to agree the Ceasfire of activities started due to 660, and therefore has no relevance here.Knife wrote:This is showing that the cease fire (not shooting them) is based on if they accept and comly to the resolutions by the UN.Recalling that in its resolution 687 (1991) the Council declared that a ceasefire would be based on acceptance by Iraq of the provisions of that resolution, including the obligations on Iraq contained therein,
A ceasefire to pushing Iraq out of Kuwait. Is Iraq in Kuwait now? Has Iraq been in Kuwait at all after 1991? Is Iraq threatening to invade Kuwait or it's Arab nieghbours? If not then all previous resolutions pertaining to that matter are irrelevant.knife wrote:Declares that Iraq is in material breach of resolutions, which according to the cease fire agreement, voids it.1. Decides that Iraq has been and remains in material breach of its obligations under relevant resolutions, including resolution 687 (1991), in particular through Iraq’s failure to cooperate with United Nations inspectors and the IAEA, and to complete the actions required under paragraphs 8 to 13 of resolution 687 (1991);
Except to Invade Iraq you need a Resolution of the Council to that effect and none of the Prior Resolutions deal with invading Iraq. The 'Any means neccesary' part was pertaining to removing Iraq from Kuwait, something that was done. 660 and subsequent resolutions to deal with it and named in 1441 were all acheived once Iraq was out of Kuwait. Also since 1441 was signed, Iraq allowed unhindered access to all UNMOVIC teams as confirmed by the head of UNMOVIC Hans Blix and by the head of the IAEA Mohammed ElBaradi. Therefore 1441 was complied with therefore there is no Lawful reason for the invasion.knife wrote:Says if they fuck up more, they are in further breach of this and earlier resolutions, effectively making the cease fire void.4. Decides that false statements or omissions in the declarations submitted by Iraq pursuant to this resolution and failure by Iraq at any time to comply with, and cooperate fully in the implementation of, this resolution shall constitute a further material breach of Iraq’s obligations and will be reported to the Council for assessment in accordance with paragraphs 11 and 12 below;
Says that they have been warned of serious consequences, by its context I assume it means prior resolutions, thus 1441 may not lay down serious consequences but prior resolutions including the cease fire agreement do that nicely and 1441 reafirms it.13. Recalls, in that context, that the Council has repeatedly warned Iraq that it will face serious consequences as a result of its continued violations of its obligations;
I'll say right now that I think it's right to remove Saddam and other proven dictators from power. However the actions of the US and UK governments in this matter have been Dubious to put it mildly. As I said in another threa, they simply chose the wrong thing to cite as a reason for war. They chose WMD and then had to backpedal like mad when Iraq let in the Inspectors and they found NOTHING! Right now Shrub appears to be pretending that 1441 has relevance but it hasn't and he is acting against International Law.
Here's a fun fact for everyone reading this.The last time a UN member broke International Law and invaded another UN member was in 1990 when Iraq invaded Kuwait...
By rights, the Next resolution in the UN should be one to remove (by force if neccesary) the invaders from Iraq. That should be interesting.
It'll never happen though as the scale of that war would be Worldwide and no one wants that. I bet China's watching this and rubbing it's hands "well if no one wants to stop the US because it would be a World War, what's to stop us taking Taiwan?" Shrub is playing a dangerous game.
"Do you know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I get and beat you with, until you understand whose in f***ing command here!" Jayne : Firefly
"The officers can stay in the admin building and read the latest Tom Clancy novel thinking up new OOBs based on it." Coyote
HAB Tankspotter - like trainspotting but with the thrill of 125mm retaliation if they spot you back
"The officers can stay in the admin building and read the latest Tom Clancy novel thinking up new OOBs based on it." Coyote
HAB Tankspotter - like trainspotting but with the thrill of 125mm retaliation if they spot you back
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Don't know if this was mentioned (and I apologise if it has) but Star Trek Dimension is doing something even worse:
http://www.stdimension.net/
Yeah, nice way to alienate and piss off your readers...
http://www.stdimension.net/
Yeah, nice way to alienate and piss off your readers...
I believe in a sign of Zeta.
[BOTM|WG|JL|Mecha Maniacs|Pax Cybertronia|Veteran of the Psychic Wars|Eva Expert]
"And besides, who cares if a monster destroys Australia?"
Anyone notice that he contradicts himself almost instantly, in the first line of his writing? Notice:
If the war "will have incalculable consequences," then how does he know that it "will cost the lives of thousands of innocent people"?a war that will cost the lives of thousands of innocent people and that will have incalculable consequences.
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You mean this?Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Don't know if this was mentioned (and I apologise if it has) but Star Trek Dimension is doing something even worse:
http://www.stdimension.net/
Yeah, nice way to alienate and piss off your readers...
Is this sort of thing becoming trendy among the operators of Star Trek websites now?Star Trek Dimension wrote:This website is not avaiable anymore for the time being, protesting against the self-interested policy of open war and violence the Bush administration is now actively pursuing in the world ... <snip more political statements>
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
- Spanky The Dolphin
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Both EAS and STD are based in Germany, so it's probably because of that.
"I'm mad so I'm gonna punnish my readers!! WAH!!!!"
Shit, that kind of childish behavior pisses me off.
"I'm mad so I'm gonna punnish my readers!! WAH!!!!"
Shit, that kind of childish behavior pisses me off.
I believe in a sign of Zeta.
[BOTM|WG|JL|Mecha Maniacs|Pax Cybertronia|Veteran of the Psychic Wars|Eva Expert]
"And besides, who cares if a monster destroys Australia?"
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We must assume that they are infected by the Feddies' peacenik ideas.Darth Wong wrote:You mean this?Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Don't know if this was mentioned (and I apologise if it has) but Star Trek Dimension is doing something even worse:
http://www.stdimension.net/
Yeah, nice way to alienate and piss off your readers...Is this sort of thing becoming trendy among the operators of Star Trek websites now?Star Trek Dimension wrote:This website is not avaiable anymore for the time being, protesting against the self-interested policy of open war and violence the Bush administration is now actively pursuing in the world ... <snip more political statements>
Have a very nice day.
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Everytime I see something like that, I feel the urge to shout, "Hell yeah! Try to stop us, bitch!"
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"If more cars are inevitable, must there not be roads for them to run on?"
-Robert Moses
"The Wire" is the best show in the history of television. Watch it today.
"If more cars are inevitable, must there not be roads for them to run on?"
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"The Wire" is the best show in the history of television. Watch it today.
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Don't let them fool you, there is nothing meaningful to say about the current incarnations of Star Trek. They're just using this as an e xcuseDarth Wong wrote:You mean this?Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Don't know if this was mentioned (and I apologise if it has) but Star Trek Dimension is doing something even worse:
http://www.stdimension.net/
Yeah, nice way to alienate and piss off your readers...Is this sort of thing becoming trendy among the operators of Star Trek websites now?Star Trek Dimension wrote:This website is not avaiable anymore for the time being, protesting against the self-interested policy of open war and violence the Bush administration is now actively pursuing in the world ... <snip more political statements>
Devolution is quite as natural as evolution, and may be just as pleasing, or even a good deal more pleasing, to God. If the average man is made in God's image, then a man such as Beethoven or Aristotle is plainly superior to God, and so God may be jealous of him, and eager to see his superiority perish with his bodily frame.
-H.L. Mencken
-H.L. Mencken
Figures
<RANT_MODE=1>
I saw that on Bernd's site and immediately left. Off to Wolf's Shipyard, but that's not the point. Last time I checked, I didn't like being fed unrelated anti-American pro-Saddam political propaganda along with my sci-fi entertainment (Darth Wong's "Warsie Propaganda" here at SDnet doesn't count simply because it goes with the spirit of a Wars Vs Trek debate ). It's like visiting a gun website and getting blitzed with anti-gay propaganda. I find it insulting to myself and my country that someone force-feed such filth to their readership. Granted, we all have the rights to air our opinions, and granted we also have the right not to like others', but if you wanna put your political views on a website you run, at least put it on a seperate section! Ah shit, I'm preaching to the damn choir again (Darth Wong knows what I mean. Look how he has the Creationism section seperate from the Wars section, both separate from his autobiographic section. )! Anyways...
<RANT_MODE=0>
Support Our Troops! Goddess Bless America!
He seems to have rethought his ideals and has updated his site.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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Wow, he stood by his crap for two whole weeks!Knife wrote:
He seems to have rethought his ideals and has updated his site.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
Sea Skimmer wrote:Wow, he stood by his crap for two whole weeks!Knife wrote:
He seems to have rethought his ideals and has updated his site.
Nathan F would probably know better, but I suppose that he got alot of preasure to quite his BS. But your right, way to stick to your guns.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red