Dictatorial powers assumed by Morsi.

[mr friendly guy]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-27/m ... etworknews

Morsi agrees to limit controversial new powers
By Middle East correspondent Matt Brown, wires
Updated 1 hour 58 minutes ago

Egypt's president has agreed to limit the use of his sweeping new powers to "sovereign matters" after extensive talks with the country's top judges.

Mohamed Morsi sparked violent protests last week by decreeing all of his decisions free from judicial review and banning courts from dissolving the Islamist-dominated body writing the country's new constitution.

Mr Morsi held five hours of crisis talks overnight with members of Egypt's highest judicial body, the Supreme Judicial Council, in an attempt to resolve the crisis.

A presidential spokesman said although no changes were made to the constitutional decree, its scope would be limited to sovereign matters.

"The issue is resolved," spokesman Yasser Ali said.

"The president said he had the utmost respect for the judicial authority and its members."

Legal experts said "sovereign matters" could be confined to issues such as declaring war or calling elections that are already beyond legal review.

But they said Egypt's legal system had sometimes used the term more broadly, suggesting that the wording leaves wide room for interpretation.

The announcement has had little impact on protesters who have gathered at Cairo's Tahrir Square demanding the scrapping of the constitutional decree.

People have been camping out in the square, which was the heart of the 2011 anti-Mubarak uprising, since the decree was announced.

Spokesman for opposition movement Popular Current, Mona Amer, said the protesters were worried the Muslim Brotherhood has become too powerful.

"We asked for the cancellation of the decree and that did not happen," she said.

ABC/Reuters

Updated for the board.

[Lord Zentei]

And more updates. Things seem to be getting messier, at least for the moment.

Cairo (CNN) -- Protesters marching on Egypt's presidential palace Tuesday night broke through barbed wire around the building and hurled chairs and rocks at retreating police.

Officers lobbed tear gas back at them.

After initial clashes, police drew behind fences and protests were peaceful for several hours.

More violence broke out at the headquarters of the Freedom and Justice Party in Menia, south of Cairo. At least 19 protesters were injured, according to Mahmoud Amin, who is in charge of ambulance operations outside the palace.

The Freedom and Justice Party -- an Islamist political group that has links to the Muslim Brotherhood -- is the party of President Mohamed Morsy.

Party head Dr. Hussein Sultan said the front of the headquarters is damaged, and at least one protester fired a shot in the air.

Egypt's Health Ministry said at least 50 ambulances had been dispatched to locations around Cairo, including 20 to the presidential palace. Hospitals were placed on high alert in anticipation of injured protesters, the ministry said.

Many in Egypt believe a new draft constitution in the country, which will be put to a popular vote on December 15, is unfair in its wording, and is an attempt by Morsy to grab more power.

Morsy was not at the palace when the protesters descended, his office said. He was out meeting with government officials, they said.

The protests cap a day of silent protest by media organizations opposing the country's new draft constitution and an edict Morsy issued nearly two weeks ago to expand his powers.

They feel the constitution does not sufficiently protect freedom of the press and, on Tuesday, a dozen partisan and privately-owned papers were not on the newsstands in protest.

Four Egyptian satellite channels are expected to go off the air on Wednesday in solidarity.

Freedom and Justice Party media adviser Murad Ali warned that organizers of the protest outside the palace could face consequences.

They "must bear the responsibility of the demonstrations they called, and bear full responsibility for any violence that may result from poor organization," he said.

Recall how the protests began. They began as a response to Morsy seizing more power for himself ostensibly in order to more thoroughly punish the old guard for their heavy handed approach in dealing with the protests that toppled Mubarak. Now look at the last couple of sentences in the article above. Apparently now it is the protesters who will bear responsibility for any violence that may result from "poor organization". How about that.

[Lord Zentei]

Morsy has given up his new powers.

Cairo (CNN) -- Egyptian President Mohamed Morsy early Sunday canceled most of a controversial decree that gave him sweeping powers, but vowed to press forward with a planned referendum next weekend on a draft constitution, an adviser said.

The move is an apparent attempt to end a political crisis that has spilled into the streets, pitting the president's supporters and opponents against one another and raising questions about Morsy's ability to lead the fragile democracy.

It was not immediately clear whether the offer, as announced by adviser Mohamed Selim el-Awwa, would be enough to mollify the opposition.

The development came after a meeting at the presidential palace that many in the opposition boycotted.

Egyptian authorities said at least six people have been killed in violent clashes in recent days, while the Muslim Brotherhood -- the group that backs Morsy -- has said eight of its members were killed.

The crisis erupted in late November when Morsy issued the edict allowing himself to run the country unchecked until a new constitution was drafted, a move that sat uncomfortably with many Egyptians who said it reminded them of ousted President Hosni Mubarak's rule.

Morsy had said the powers were necessary and temporary. But that promise did little to quiet the opposition.

Anger at Morsy's move led to protesters reoccupying Tahrir Square, the scene of the Arab Spring uprising that saw Mubarak ousted in 2011. Thousands later protested outside the palace, where the opposition clashed with the Muslim Brotherhood.

The anger only grew when the Islamist-dominated Constitutional Assembly pushed through a draft despite the objections of the secular opposition, including some members who walked out in protest. Tens of thousands of protesters -- for and against Morsy -- took to the streets.

A coalition of Egyptian Islamic parties, including the Brotherhood, rejects any postponement in the constitutional referendum, the Islamic Forces Alliance announced Saturday on the Brotherhood website.

The deputy head of Muslim Brotherhood, Khairet El-Shatir, also read the Alliance's statement in a press conference.

The Alliance won't allow under any circumstance the return of the corrupt Mubarak regime. El-Shatir said. The Alliance includes 13 parties such as the Al-Nour party and the Salafist front.

The statement also warned against manipulating the will of the people by forcefully overtaking the state.

"We assure the Egyptian people that the Alliance of the Islamic Forces is very keen to preserve the security of the homeland, stopping the bloodshed," El-Shatir said.

Egypt's military leaders, who took control of the country after Mubarak's ouster, were keeping a wary eye on the developments, according to a statement released by the Egyptian armed forces and read on state-media.

"The armed forces are watching with sadness and worries the current developments in the country, with its consequences and how it led to divisions," the statement said, according to state media.

"We stress that dialogue is the ideal and only solution to reach an agreement that realizes the interests of the nation and its citizens. Anything other than that will lead us into a dark tunnel with catastrophic consequences, which we will never allow to happen."

Adel Saeed, a spokesman for Egypt's newly appointed general prosecutor, said Friday morning that opposition figures Hamdeen Sabahy, Mohamed El Baradei and Amr Moussa are being investigated for allegedly "conspiring to topple" the government.

All three are well-known internationally; ElBaradei being a Nobel Peace Prize laureate. Moussa a onetime head of the Arab League, and Sabahy is an Egyptian political figure. They are now being probed for their role in the opposition against Morsy.

ElBaradei said on Twitter: "I call upon all the national forces and figures not to participate in a dialogue that lacks all the basics of a truthful discourse. We support a dialogue that is not based on the policy of arm-twisting and forcing the status quo."

Those taking part in the protests around the North African nation say the scenes are similar to those of the 2011 uprising that led to Mubarak's ouster. This time, they say, dissent is being vigorously stamped out by Morsy's backers in government and on the street.

Specifically, they spoke of thugs with knives and rocks chasing activists, presidential backers belittling opponents and pressure from various quarters to go home and be quiet.

"It's exactly the same battle," said Hasan Amin, a CNN iReporter.

[Flagg]

I'm guessing maybe the military didn't want to go all Tianeman Square and forced Morsi to back down?

[madd0ct0r]

how would it be tinammen square? that was tanks vs student protestors calling for democracy. What you're describing would be the tanks backing up the student protesters to tell the alleged authorities to step back.

If Egypt can somehow get to a stable point where the authority doesn't constantly threaten dictatorship and the protesting fringe can trust other means to enact social change guickly, (at least generally, protests will always be with us) then they should stabilize.

Getting there will be an interesting few years. Hopefully Turkey will provide a model, if not really a role model.

[Flagg]

how would it be tinammen square? that was tanks vs student protestors calling for democracy. What you're describing would be the tanks backing up the student protesters to tell the alleged authorities to step back.

If Egypt can somehow get to a stable point where the authority doesn't constantly threaten dictatorship and the protesting fringe can trust other means to enact social change guickly, (at least generally, protests will always be with us) then they should stabilize.

Getting there will be an interesting few years. Hopefully Turkey will provide a model, if not really a role model.

Umm what you described is the opposite of what I said. My thinking is that Morsi wanted the military to open up on the protesters (who had surrounded the presidential palace) and they refused so Morsi had to back down or become Mussolini 2012.

[madd0ct0r]

ahh. I read 'forced Morsi to back down' as 'force Morsi to backdown.'

My mistake.

[Scorpion]

I don't mind unelected governments if they adhere to the rule of law, I see the functioning of the courts system as being more important than democracy to providing positive outcomes in peoples' lives. (...) I don't think it matters if a country is a democracy, monarchy, or dictatorship, as long as there is respect for the rule of law, which essentially results in low corruption, predictable outcomes for your life (you are not afraid of being dragged away in the night for a crime you don't understand), reputable outcomes to civil disputes, and the promise of order and justice from the criminal system.

Duchess, rule of law, by itself, is no guarantor of positive outcomes, as you put it. It is contingent on the contents of said laws, which are written by the governments. In a dictatorial government, the rule of law is what allows the police to drag you away in the night, because the laws are written not to ensure the welfare of the citizens, but the longevity of the regime. Lawful evil is still evil.

[Ralin]

Duchess, rule of law, by itself, is no guarantor of positive outcomes, as you put it. It is contingent on the contents of said laws, which are written by the governments. In a dictatorial government, the rule of law is what allows the police to drag you away in the night, because the laws are written not to ensure the welfare of the citizens, but the longevity of the regime. Lawful evil is still evil.

No, but nine times out of ten it's better than the alternative. Stability matters more than justice or freedom in determining whether you can live a decent life.

[Scorpion]

Ultimately failed democratic revolutions seem to outnumber the successful ones in history; I can't even think of one off the top of my head (I'm sure there have been some though).

Jesus, have people forgotten the fall of communism so fast? The entire eastern Europe was a wall of entirely dictatorial states 20 years ago and now they're (almost) all somewhat economically successful democracies! Portugal also gained it's democracy through a military coup, and after a year of political instability, we've been in a normal democratic society for some 38 years.

The thing I find in common with all these revolutions is that there were very few shots fired. With the exception of Romania, there wasn't a single shot fired in anger in Eastern Europe, and in Portugal, when the government saw that the military, the ones it ultimately relied on to stay in power, were revolting, they pretty much just shrugged and gave themselves in. I guess the success of a democracy is inversely proportional to the number of shots fired in the revolution?

[Dr. Trainwreck]

The entire eastern Europe was a wall of entirely dictatorial states 20 years ago and now they're (almost) all somewhat economically successful democracies!

I'm crying. I'm fucking crying in here.

If economic success were like that, the IMF would be the gods of the earth. And no, "almost" and "somewhat" do not count in your favour, because they are weasel words.

[Simon_Jester]

Duchess, rule of law, by itself, is no guarantor of positive outcomes, as you put it. It is contingent on the contents of said laws, which are written by the governments. In a dictatorial government, the rule of law is what allows the police to drag you away in the night, because the laws are written not to ensure the welfare of the citizens, but the longevity of the regime. Lawful evil is still evil.

There's a catch. In most tyrannies it's not that simple.

[Let's separate "tyranny" from "dictatorship," they're not quite the same]

The truly dangerous secret police forces in a tyranny aren't the ones who routinely arrest people for speeding tickets and domestic burglaries. They're the shadowy ones who aren't part of the normal court system, don't have to keep files on what happens to their prisoners (remember the 'disappeared' in Argentina), violate laws on the books about treatment of captives, and so on. That is why they are secret police: their activities are a state secret and they're not bound by the customary rules

When you have such a system, rule of law goes out the window, and you have everything we fear about tyranny.

Without such a system, even if there are laws on the books against sedition and so on... it's less bad. Trials are being held more openly, the police records are more accessible, and there are no secret spaces for the enforcers to operate in. A lot of the oppressiveness of an authoritarian regime fades, under those conditions.

I'd rather have a democracy. But I can easily see someone thinking that democracy without rule of law is worse than dictatorship with it. The problem is that dictatorship with rule of law is so rare, because the autocrat usually has enough power to arbitrarily overthrow any laws he finds inconvenient. The closest examples I can think of would be 18th and 19th century monarchies, where the ruler is theoretically an autocrat, but there are constraints of precedent and law on what he can do, and the legal process runs in the open where people can see it and know how to avoid being arrested.

[Ralin]

Pretty much, yeah. It's worth bearing in mind that the Chinese constitution guarantees freedom of speech.

It also guarantees freedom of religious belief without saying anything about freedom of religious practice. I always liked that bit.

[Simon_Jester]

Yes, and if those guarantees aren't honored, then they don't have rule of law. Which is kind of the point.

I can't think of many truly oppressive dictatorships where the dictator felt seriously bound to follow an external law code. The worst ones are usually the ones where the tyrant is making up the rules as he goes along, and empowering his minions to do it for him too.