Sequestration : Completely Unnecessary?

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Re: Sequestration : Completely Unnecessary?

Post by Surlethe »

Simon_Jester wrote:What on Earth makes you think you can measure the long term effects of a change in government budget that take weeks or months to manifest by observing today's change in a stock market that responds hourly to news?

All this proves is that stockbrokers didn't change their buying and selling patterns in response to the news that the sequester was going to happen. Big whoop, anyone with any brains knew it would happen days in advance, and its physical, tangible consequences won't come due for some time yet.
Since all current information is incorporated in stock prices, the stock market is basically a measure of the expected present value of future economic performance. That makes it a very valuable canary in the coal mine. So either sequestration was obviously going to happen and its impact is already priced into stocks (given the 1% drop at the start of trading on Friday, I doubt that), or it's just not going to have a major impact on the economy.
What inflation does is shrivel up fixed-rate savings and debt and increase the cost of living and increase wages.
I fixed that for you. Since the rest of your point relied on this misunderstanding of inflation, I won't respond to it at length. Suffice it to say that the situations you describe reflect changing real economic realities, not high inflation. Inflation just makes those real changes smoother and less recession-y.
All things considered I'd rather go to single-payer.
For serious. The US always seems to find the worst possible implementation of the correct solution to any social problem.
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Re: Sequestration : Completely Unnecessary?

Post by aerius »

The Dow? Really? The markets are 2/3 to 3/4 algo and HFT trading on thin volume (about 20-24% of normal) these days, and have little relation to the actual economy.
This is wrong, wrong, wrong.* Inflation doesn't push people into poverty unless it's being induced by a supply shock - and in that case, it's better to share the pain across society than to dump a bunch of people out of jobs. Otherwise, it's completely neutral and claiming it pushes people into poverty is just plain wrong.

* With the sole exception that over the long haul, inflation pushes people into fixed nominal tax brackets.
Yeah, only if you can keep monetary inflation from turning into general price inflation.
Then, there's the longer term effects. By keeping interest rates low, the Fed had destroyed the income base for nearly every retirement fund. Add inflation on top of that and it becomes nearly impossible to save for retirement, everyone needs to put a lot more in to get a lot less out, and all that money comes out of disposable income.
If inflation rises, interest rates will rise as well: The reason interest rates are low is because the Fed is keeping inflation (more broadly, income) low. If the Fed announced tomorrow that the new trend inflation rate was 8%, interest rates would skyrocket.
And the federal budget gets creamed hard & fast since most of the debt is short duration these days. The blended interest rate on the debt hits 10% or so and tears a $1.2 trillion chunk out of the budget. Total revenues are in the $2.9 trillion range, you will just be able to cover mandatory spending with that, and only for a few more years until social security & medicare costs go through the roof as boomers age & retire. Once that happens and the market recognizes it you can kiss your investment grade credit rating goodbye. Rates go up some more and pretty soon you're Greece.
The government will have you believe that unemployment is falling and is down significantly from 2009, but when you look at the actual number of people who have jobs it's been flatlined since then.
That's because people are exiting the labor force and relying on friends/family/UI/welfare checks. Since they're not looking for jobs any more, unemployment is falling -- labor market hysteresis is one of the correction mechanisms by which a real output gap closes.
That's one way to put it, but unemployed is unemployed, either way they ain't paying taxes, well not much anyway other than some sales tax at Wallyworld but that goes to the states and not the fedgov.
PS- I didn't quote the part about Obamacare because I pretty much agree with you. Fuck Obamacare and its poorly-thought-out, pseudo-fascist, Heritage Foundation-inspired corporate insurance company handouts.
I don't think I could design a more fucked up system if I tried. And honestly, I don't think we've found all the nasty surprises in that bill yet. Some the stuff isn't going to kick in for another year or 2, I wouldn't be surprised if there's something in there for the DHS or other agency to sink their teeth into it the way the IRS did.
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Re: Sequestration : Completely Unnecessary?

Post by Surlethe »

aerius wrote:
The Dow? Really? The markets are 2/3 to 3/4 algo and HFT trading on thin volume (about 20-24% of normal) these days, and have little relation to the actual economy.
Better than anything else anyone has. (Edit) And the higher frequency the trading, the faster I'd expect new information to be priced into shares.
This is wrong, wrong, wrong.* Inflation doesn't push people into poverty unless it's being induced by a supply shock - and in that case, it's better to share the pain across society than to dump a bunch of people out of jobs. Otherwise, it's completely neutral and claiming it pushes people into poverty is just plain wrong.

* With the sole exception that over the long haul, inflation pushes people into fixed nominal tax brackets.
Yeah, only if you can keep monetary inflation from turning into general price inflation.
I am talking about general price inflation. General price inflation implies wage inflation, which is why your characterization of the consequences of inflation is wrong.
If inflation rises, interest rates will rise as well: The reason interest rates are low is because the Fed is keeping inflation (more broadly, income) low. If the Fed announced tomorrow that the new trend inflation rate was 8%, interest rates would skyrocket.
And the federal budget gets creamed hard & fast since most of the debt is short duration these days. The blended interest rate on the debt hits 10% or so and tears a $1.2 trillion chunk out of the budget. Total revenues are in the $2.9 trillion range, you will just be able to cover mandatory spending with that, and only for a few more years until social security & medicare costs go through the roof as boomers age & retire. Once that happens and the market recognizes it you can kiss your investment grade credit rating goodbye. Rates go up some more and pretty soon you're Greece.
You think the Fed could move to a higher inflation target without tax revenues rising even faster? An 8% inflation target is a 10% income target. Income would start growing at 10% immediately, but inflation would stay at 2-5% as unemployment dropped to 4%. The interest on short-term T-bill yields would stay low, reflecting low short-run inflation as the slack picked up in the economy. That gives Treasury time to fix the maturity structure (why in the world are they borrowing short now? Jesus) as tax revenues pick up. The structural problem doesn't go away, but at least we wouldn't face it on top of a cyclical deficit the size of Texas.
The government will have you believe that unemployment is falling and is down significantly from 2009, but when you look at the actual number of people who have jobs it's been flatlined since then.
That's because people are exiting the labor force and relying on friends/family/UI/welfare checks. Since they're not looking for jobs any more, unemployment is falling -- labor market hysteresis is one of the correction mechanisms by which a real output gap closes.
That's one way to put it, but unemployed is unemployed, either way they ain't paying taxes, well not much anyway other than some sales tax at Wallyworld but that goes to the states and not the fedgov.
Exactly. Now, there are a couple of ways to close the output gap - one is to let inflation grind wages down and hysteresis to kick people out of the workforce until we're down to 1960s levels of labor force participation. Of course, the other alternative is to actually reflate the economy back to trend, but god forbid the inflation hawks on the FOMC actually let the Fed obey its dual mandate.
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Re: Sequestration : Completely Unnecessary?

Post by aerius »

Your assumptions rest on CPI translating into wage inflation, and on top of that it assumes that CPI is an honest measure of inflation. Yeah, fuck that shit. You're gonna tell me that medical insurance is 0.46% of expenditures when the average family spends $10k per year on it?
Exactly. Now, there are a couple of ways to close the output gap - one is to let inflation grind wages down and hysteresis to kick people out of the workforce until we're down to 1960s levels of labor force participation. Of course, the other alternative is to actually reflate the economy back to trend, but god forbid the inflation hawks on the FOMC actually let the Fed obey its dual mandate.
Do I have to pull out Section 2a of the Fed's charter on you? Recall that debt is credit. Does this look commensurate to you?

But that's not important. You have serious structural problems in your economy, society, and country. These are problems which cannot be fixed monetary policies. You can dick around with interest rates, money printing, and all those other Fed tools, but they cannot and will not restart growth until you fix the bezzle* in the system.


*bezzle - general term for crony capitalism, your abortion of a healthcare system, vampiric business models, legalized theft, corporations being above the law, the SEC watching porn instead of prosecuting, and other shit like that.
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Re: Sequestration : Completely Unnecessary?

Post by Surlethe »

I'm quoting the definition of inflation: an increase in the general price level. That includes wages. General price inflation does not, and cannot, hurt anybody. You seem to be conflating inflation caused by a supply shock with general price inflation, and then misassigning the harm caused by diminished production to the corresponding increase in price levels.

On the Fed's charter, don't focus on monetary and credit aggregates. Focus on: "promote effectively the goals of maximum employment, stable prices, and moderate long-term interest rates." We all know what's happened to employment, long-term interest rates, and hell, even prices -- Bernanke just last week claimed the best inflation record of any Fed governor since 1933. The only point of giving the Fed creative-destructive authority over the monetary and credit aggregates is to stabilize growth around the long-term trend, and that's exactly what it's failed to do since 2008.
But that's not important. You have serious structural problems in your economy, society, and country. These are problems which cannot be fixed monetary policies. You can dick around with interest rates, money printing, and all those other Fed tools, but they cannot and will not restart growth until you fix the bezzle* in the system.
Let's be a little careful: growth is happening. But on the main, I agree with you -- the Fed can't fix the economy's serious structural problems. It can't stop the baby boomers aging, it can't stop the cost curve bending, it can't bring back manufacturing jobs from China and South Korea and Vietnam (<obligatory remark about how outsourcing is awesome>), it can't repeal unemployment insurance, it can't lower effective MTRs on the poor from 30+% to a reasonable amount, it can't stop the gini coefficient growing or reform the patent system or fix O'boondogglecare.

What it can do is eliminate AD-shortfall driven business cycles, keep the US chugging along at more-or-less full employment, and distribute the impact of supply shocks more fairly (Steve Waldman has a great post about how targeting inflation is immoral). NB that stabilizing income helps with intersectoral structural adjustment, since moderate inflation lubricates workers' movement between industries, but that doesn't help fix the bigger structural issues.

So basically, you're right, the Fed won't fix deeper structural problems. But by putting us back at full employment and ensuring stable income growth, the Fed can provide the right context to attack those structural problems, and make sure that price and wage stickiness don't get in the way.
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Re: Sequestration : Completely Unnecessary?

Post by J »

Surlethe wrote:Since all current information is incorporated in stock prices, the stock market is basically a measure of the expected present value of future economic performance. That makes it a very valuable canary in the coal mine.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

I would like to see proof of this using charts, economic forecasts, and corporate earnings forecasts & reports from the relevant time periods. Might I suggest the late 1990s (internet doubles every 3 months!) and oh...2008 as particular times of interest?

Also, computerized high frequency trading does not "price information" into shares unless Starglider has succeeded in creating Skynet without the rest of us knowing. There is no price discovery in the market when the majority of "trades" consists of machines sniping each other for fractions of a penny.
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Re: Sequestration : Completely Unnecessary?

Post by aerius »

Surlethe wrote:I'm quoting the definition of inflation: an increase in the general price level. That includes wages. General price inflation does not, and cannot, hurt anybody. You seem to be conflating inflation caused by a supply shock with general price inflation, and then misassigning the harm caused by diminished production to the corresponding increase in price levels.
So what you're saying is that by definition, inflation will cause proportionate wage increases, and stated it as a fact with no proof. Again, there is nothing to suggest that price inflation will necessarily carry over into a corresponding wage increase, you just assume that it happens. If you are correct, real wages will be flat over time. Let's check out the chart.

Image

Even with the fudged official CPI numbers there's been a slight drop over time, which means wages haven't kept up. Going by the SGS numbers, it's a fucking disaster. What are the SGS numbers you ask? It means we do it apples to apples and get rid of the hedonic adjustments and bullshit weighting that's used in the current CPI. People spend more on beef than medical insurance according to the current CPI weighting. What the fuck is that bullshit? You'll have me believe men spend as much on shoes, shirts, and sweaters as medical insurance? What planet are you from?
On the Fed's charter, don't focus on monetary and credit aggregates. Focus on: "promote effectively the goals of maximum employment, stable prices, and moderate long-term interest rates." We all know what's happened to employment, long-term interest rates, and hell, even prices -- Bernanke just last week claimed the best inflation record of any Fed governor since 1933. The only point of giving the Fed creative-destructive authority over the monetary and credit aggregates is to stabilize growth around the long-term trend, and that's exactly what it's failed to do since 2008.
Moderate does not mean next to zero. Stable prices means exactly that, stable, not 2% per year, or did they fail math & English? Next, the natural state of the economy is DEFLATION, technology & productivity improves over time which means things are supposed to get cheaper. If prices are going up over time it means someone is fucking with the working of an efficient market. And this is not even getting into the effects of ZIRP on capital formation, investment, and allocation. As for jobs, they will come when you get everything else right.
So basically, you're right, the Fed won't fix deeper structural problems. But by putting us back at full employment and ensuring stable income growth, the Fed can provide the right context to attack those structural problems, and make sure that price and wage stickiness don't get in the way.
Hate to break it to you, but given how screwed up your country is, what you have now IS full employment. You're not going back to the days where 4-5% unemployment is the norm unless you roll back everything else to what it was back then.
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Re: Sequestration : Completely Unnecessary?

Post by Surlethe »

J wrote:
Surlethe wrote:Since all current information is incorporated in stock prices, the stock market is basically a measure of the expected present value of future economic performance. That makes it a very valuable canary in the coal mine.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

I would like to see proof of this using charts, economic forecasts, and corporate earnings forecasts & reports from the relevant time periods. Might I suggest the late 1990s (internet doubles every 3 months!) and oh...2008 as particular times of interest?
May I direct you to the literature on the EMH?
Also, computerized high frequency trading does not "price information" into shares unless Starglider has succeeded in creating Skynet without the rest of us knowing. There is no price discovery in the market when the majority of "trades" consists of machines sniping each other for fractions of a penny.
How do you know?
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Re: Sequestration : Completely Unnecessary?

Post by J »

Surlethe wrote:May I direct you to the literature on the EMH?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

EMH relies on many assumptions which are simply false in an actual market economy, among them, rational players, equilibrium systems, equal information access, equal access to capital, and identical time horizons. I suggest a reading of Prof. Steve Keen's Debunking Economics followed by The Inefficient Stock Market by Robert Haugen.
Also, computerized high frequency trading does not "price information" into shares unless Starglider has succeeded in creating Skynet without the rest of us knowing. There is no price discovery in the market when the majority of "trades" consists of machines sniping each other for fractions of a penny.
How do you know?
Know what? That Starglider hasn't created Skynet? Well, we're still alive aren't we?
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Re: Sequestration : Completely Unnecessary?

Post by phongn »

I don't see why HFT can't include some news data analysis into soft-AI algorithms. Contextual analysis of information is done, right now, by Google News, for example (or those ads in Gmail, etc.) It won't be some all-knowing oracle but can probably figure out if the media keeps reporting "recession" it's time to modify pricing.
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Re: Sequestration : Completely Unnecessary?

Post by Stark »

I don't think (practical) HFT is used to inflate price. It certainly helps concentrate capital, but it doesn't even have to be supervision-free and is often used driven quite closely by humans.
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Re: Sequestration : Completely Unnecessary?

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aerius wrote:So what you're saying is that by definition, inflation will cause proportionate wage increases, and stated it as a fact with no proof.
That's what a definition means. Do I need to pull out a macro 101 textbook and cite it for you?
Again, there is nothing to suggest that price inflation will necessarily carry over into a corresponding wage increase, you just assume that it happens. If you are correct, real wages will be flat over time.
Wages are prices. In a general price inflation, all prices are rising, wages in particular are rising. Inflation cannot be responsible for a fall in living standards. You are committing a cum hoc fallacy by conflating a relative price change caused by real economic changes with a general rise in prices. As I said before, you are mistaking inflation as the cause of stagnating real wages.
Moderate does not mean next to zero. Stable prices means exactly that, stable, not 2% per year, or did they fail math & English? Next, the natural state of the economy is DEFLATION, technology & productivity improves over time which means things are supposed to get cheaper. If prices are going up over time it means someone is fucking with the working of an efficient market. And this is not even getting into the effects of ZIRP on capital formation, investment, and allocation. As for jobs, they will come when you get everything else right.
I'm taking "stable" to mean "follows an expected trajectory." I don't really care that the "natural" state of the economy is deflation --- the XX century is ample evidence that moderate price inflation is more helpful than 0% inflation (although frankly the 1920s make me question this assertion). If prices are going up over time, it doesn't mean someone is fucking with the working of an efficient market, it just means that there are more dollars in circulation. Nothing more, nothing less: inflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon.
Hate to break it to you, but given how screwed up your country is, what you have now IS full employment. You're not going back to the days where 4-5% unemployment is the norm unless you roll back everything else to what it was back then.
Sure.
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Re: Sequestration : Completely Unnecessary?

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J wrote:EMH relies on many assumptions which are simply false in an actual market economy, among them, rational players, equilibrium systems, equal information access, equal access to capital, and identical time horizons.
And Newton's law of gravity relies on the assumption that objects act on each other from a distance. Ridiculous! Absurd! It could never be true.
I suggest a reading of Prof. Steve Keen's Debunking Economics followed by The Inefficient Stock Market by Robert Haugen.
I'll look into them. On the other hand, have you read A Random Walk Down Wall Street?
Also, computerized high frequency trading does not "price information" into shares unless Starglider has succeeded in creating Skynet without the rest of us knowing. There is no price discovery in the market when the majority of "trades" consists of machines sniping each other for fractions of a penny.
How do you know?
Know what?[/quote]
You're basically asserting without reason or evidence that there can't be price discovery when the majority of trades are high-frequency, low-value. Seems to me quite the opposite: when trades are so fast and so precise and making so little profit, a market has got to be about as efficient as possible.

Now I could just leave that as a bald assertion :P , but the argument is interesting to me. When a market is inefficient, you expect high-volume trades and lots of profit opportunities. The more efficient, the finer and rarer the arbitrage opportunities, the lower-volume and lower-profit the average trade becomes. So high frequency AI programs sniping at each other for fractions of a cent is perfectly consistent with a highly efficient market.
That Starglider hasn't created Skynet? Well, we're still alive aren't we?
Are you sure we're not living in a little universe he created for our disembodied brains?
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Re: Sequestration : Completely Unnecessary?

Post by aerius »

Surlethe wrote:Wages are prices. In a general price inflation, all prices are rising, wages in particular are rising. Inflation cannot be responsible for a fall in living standards. You are committing a cum hoc fallacy by conflating a relative price change caused by real economic changes with a general rise in prices. As I said before, you are mistaking inflation as the cause of stagnating real wages.
Surlethe, did you fail math? Specifically, exponential functions? Let me explain.

All loans carry a premium over the expected inflation rate for the duration of the loan, this is because creditors don't lend money for free, time value of money and all that. Let's say the premium is 2% over the inflation rate. Now, go work out the spread between inflation and loan interest for an inflation rate of 0%, then do it again for 8% inflation for a time period of 20 years. What the fuck happened? Did that spread just blow out by ~4 times? Shit! Math really does work!

Now, consider that you have general price inflation, and I'll also assume that wages follow accordingly. This means homes, cars, business, education, and all the other stuff that we take out loans for are also going up in price at the CPI rate, yet the price of loans for those things are going up faster thanks to inflation and the imputed time value of money which causes them to rise faster than the CPI rate. In other words, you are now pricing those things out of reach thanks to inflation, they become more expensive relative to your wages over time, and this is true of anything that relies on credit/loans. The higher the inflation rate, the greater the spread becomes and the more quickly people get priced out of the market for those things.
I'm taking "stable" to mean "follows an expected trajectory." I don't really care that the "natural" state of the economy is deflation --- the XX century is ample evidence that moderate price inflation is more helpful than 0% inflation (although frankly the 1920s make me question this assertion). If prices are going up over time, it doesn't mean someone is fucking with the working of an efficient market, it just means that there are more dollars in circulation. Nothing more, nothing less: inflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon.
Question it some more.
Hate to break it to you, but given how screwed up your country is, what you have now IS full employment. You're not going back to the days where 4-5% unemployment is the norm unless you roll back everything else to what it was back then.
Sure.
How about we take out the BLS fudging.
http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_da ... ent-charts
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Re: Sequestration : Completely Unnecessary?

Post by Surlethe »

aerius wrote:
Surlethe wrote:Wages are prices. In a general price inflation, all prices are rising, wages in particular are rising. Inflation cannot be responsible for a fall in living standards. You are committing a cum hoc fallacy by conflating a relative price change caused by real economic changes with a general rise in prices. As I said before, you are mistaking inflation as the cause of stagnating real wages.
Surlethe, did you fail math? Specifically, exponential functions?
Quite the opposite: If you turned in work this shoddy to me, I'd fail you.
Let me explain.

All loans carry a premium over the expected inflation rate for the duration of the loan, this is because creditors don't lend money for free, time value of money and all that. Let's say the premium is 2% over the inflation rate. Now, go work out the spread between inflation and loan interest for an inflation rate of 0%, then do it again for 8% inflation for a time period of 20 years. What the fuck happened? Did that spread just blow out by ~4 times? Shit! Math really does work!

Now, consider that you have general price inflation, and I'll also assume that wages follow accordingly. This means homes, cars, business, education, and all the other stuff that we take out loans for are also going up in price at the CPI rate, yet the price of loans for those things are going up faster thanks to inflation and the imputed time value of money which causes them to rise faster than the CPI rate. In other words, you are now pricing those things out of reach thanks to inflation, they become more expensive relative to your wages over time, and this is true of anything that relies on credit/loans. The higher the inflation rate, the greater the spread becomes and the more quickly people get priced out of the market for those things.
(sigh) The real rate of interest is r, inflation is i, and the nominal rate of interest is n = r + i. In t years, the ratio of interest to wages (which increase at i) is exp(nt)/exp(it) = exp( (n-i)t ) = exp(rt). Amazingly, the ratio of loan price to wage DOESN'T DEPEND ON THE INFLATION RATE. (Maybe that's why they call it the "real" rate of interest.)

Of course, this is unsurprising to anyone who understands exponential growth, which preserves ratios. If wages and prices are both growing at 8%, and creditors charge 2% on top, well hey, guess what -- the price and wage increases are proportional. Nobody's getting priced out of anything in your hypothetical world because -- just like I've been saying from the beginning -- inflation is purely nominal and has no real (long-run) impact.
Hate to break it to you, but given how screwed up your country is, what you have now IS full employment. You're not going back to the days where 4-5% unemployment is the norm unless you roll back everything else to what it was back then.
Sure.
How about we take out the BLS fudging.
http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_da ... ent-charts[/quote]
Where's your estimate of the natural rate?
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Re: Sequestration : Completely Unnecessary?

Post by J »

Surlethe wrote:
J wrote:EMH relies on many assumptions which are simply false in an actual market economy, among them, rational players, equilibrium systems, equal information access, equal access to capital, and identical time horizons.
And Newton's law of gravity relies on the assumption that objects act on each other from a distance. Ridiculous! Absurd! It could never be true.
Unlike the assumptions upon which EMH rests, we can scientifically prove the assumptions behind Newton's law of gravity. We can empirically measure them, whereas EMH isn't far from "assume an invisible unicorn which poops out skittles..."
You're basically asserting without reason or evidence that there can't be price discovery when the majority of trades are high-frequency, low-value. Seems to me quite the opposite: when trades are so fast and so precise and making so little profit, a market has got to be about as efficient as possible.
My employer has a specialty in profiting from the disruption of HFT & algo trading. If markets were efficient, we wouldn't be as profitable.
Now I could just leave that as a bald assertion :P , but the argument is interesting to me. When a market is inefficient, you expect high-volume trades and lots of profit opportunities. The more efficient, the finer and rarer the arbitrage opportunities, the lower-volume and lower-profit the average trade becomes. So high frequency AI programs sniping at each other for fractions of a cent is perfectly consistent with a highly efficient market.
The word is dysfunctional. Nanex has ongoing research on this subject and has compiled oodles of data in the process.
Start with this one
http://www.nanex.net/aqck2/3532.html

Then this
http://www.nanex.net/aqck/2818.html

And this
http://www.nanex.net/aqck/2805.HTML

And finally have fun reading through the rest of their material
http://www.nanex.net/flashcrash/ongoingresearch.html
That Starglider hasn't created Skynet? Well, we're still alive aren't we?
Are you sure we're not living in a little universe he created for our disembodied brains?
You raise a valid point, since you're part of the Shep/Zaia collective, I shall defer to your superior knowledge of this subject.
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Re: Sequestration : Completely Unnecessary?

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Surlethe, I figured out my math error when I redid it on my TI-85 about 5 minutes after the edit limit expired. Turns out the calculator on my computer doesn't do what I think it does. This is why I don't work in math or accounting, though I'd probably make a pretty good Enron accountant.
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Re: Sequestration : Completely Unnecessary?

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Surlethe wrote:
That's one way to put it, but unemployed is unemployed, either way they ain't paying taxes, well not much anyway other than some sales tax at Wallyworld but that goes to the states and not the fedgov.
Exactly. Now, there are a couple of ways to close the output gap - one is to let inflation grind wages down and hysteresis to kick people out of the workforce until we're down to 1960s levels of labor force participation. Of course, the other alternative is to actually reflate the economy back to trend, but god forbid the inflation hawks on the FOMC actually let the Fed obey its dual mandate.
I have a question. You speak of reflating the economy back to trend. How would this be accomplished by the FOMC?
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Re: Sequestration : Completely Unnecessary?

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To elaborate, the Fed neither rules by decree nor does it have a magic wand. It can influence interest and by extension inflation rates with the help of its primary dealers through various market operations to add or withdraw liquidity, money, and credit from the system. With this in mind, what actions by the Fed are required to, as you say, reflate the economy back to trend?

Do of course try to keep them legal and within the Fed's charter. Monetizing T-notes is ok. Equity purchases on the NYSE? Not kosher.
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Re: Sequestration : Completely Unnecessary?

Post by aerius »

I may have fucked up the math, but I believe I'm still right on my previous point. What both of us forgot is that consumer loans aren't indexed to inflation, they're fixed and locked down at the time you take them out. The monthly payments on your mortgage or car loan are fixed to some nominal amount and do not rise or fall with inflation*.

So, let's say you want to buy a home and you make about $3600 in take home pay per month at the time you take out your mortgage. Your friendly bank is going to limit you to a 35% debt to income ratio so the largest monthly payment you can make is a bit over $1200, and this combined with the interest rate determines how much money they'll loan you. Let's say you want a 20 year and the interest is 4% over inflation. At zero inflation you can take out a $200k mortgage to buy your home. 8% inflation bumps the mortgage rate to 12% and now you're down to $115k for what you can borrow. Since home prices are rising along with inflation, you just priced a fuckload of people out of a home.

Now with car loans, student loans, credit cards, and stuff like that it's not going to be as bad as mortgages since the terms are usually shorter, but they all operate on the same principle. They're all based on your current income and the payments aren't indexed to inflation. If you want higher inflation the interest rates go up and the amount they'll loan you goes down so people get priced out of the market for those things.



*Yes, I know that open & variable rate mortgages exist, but they come with higher interest rate spreads and you can be sure the banks will jack you for all you're worth and then some by opening up the spreads some more in an inflationary environment.
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Re: Sequestration : Completely Unnecessary?

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Been busy, will try to respond later this evening.
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Re: Sequestration : Completely Unnecessary?

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J: I don't want to keep discussing the EMH, so let me just close that tangent by pointing out that you cannot test a theory by its assumptions. If you want to show the EMH is not a good model, you have to test its predictions: how much serial correlation is there in the market? Can market participants on average make better returns than the market over the long run? Are the marginal trades low-volume and low-profit? And so on.
To elaborate, the Fed neither rules by decree nor does it have a magic wand. It can influence interest and by extension inflation rates with the help of its primary dealers through various market operations to add or withdraw liquidity, money, and credit from the system. With this in mind, what actions by the Fed are required to, as you say, reflate the economy back to trend?
The Fed needs to declare that it will begin unlimited asset purchases (probably T-bills, maybe distressed securities, whatever) starting at, say, $100 billion per month and rising 10% every month thereafter until income has risen back to the 1985-2005 trend line.

The key point is that it won't actually have to make those purchases, since investment demand will jump on the expectation of higher future incomes. In fact, as per standard monetary theory, the Fed's balance sheet grows when monetary policy is tight and the Fed's balance sheet shrinks when monetary policy is loose, so we can expect the Fed's balance sheet to shrink drastically. (Only the Fed can cause an asset's price to fall by increasing demand for it!)

aerius:
Surlethe, I figured out my math error when I redid it on my TI-85 about 5 minutes after the edit limit expired. Turns out the calculator on my computer doesn't do what I think it does. This is why I don't work in math or accounting, though I'd probably make a pretty good Enron accountant.
lols, all good :)
What both of us forgot is that consumer loans aren't indexed to inflation, they're fixed and locked down at the time you take them out.
Right: in particular, they're determined by the expected rate of inflation. More precisely, (loan rate) = (real rate) + (expected inflation rate). With that in mind, let's trace through your example.

So I think where you're going wrong is computing debt-to-income versus present-value-of-debt to present-value-of-income-stream. In other words, the bank doesn't care about your *current* income-to-expected-interest-payment ratio; it cares whether every month going forward you'll be able to make your payment. Since at 8% interest, your income is rising at 8% per year, the bank will take that into account, which is why it tacks on the 8% inflation premium to the 4% interest rate in the first place.

(Again, general price inflation is distinct from supply-shock induced inflation, which is really a decrease in the relative price of labor as measured in other goods and services.)
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Re: Sequestration : Completely Unnecessary?

Post by Surlethe »

Oh, and let me add ...
You raise a valid point, since you're part of the Shep/Zaia collective, I shall defer to your superior knowledge of this subject.
And, what knowledge --- what painful, painful knowledge! Oh, for the sweet bliss of ignorance.
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Re: Sequestration : Completely Unnecessary?

Post by aerius »

Surlethe wrote:
What both of us forgot is that consumer loans aren't indexed to inflation, they're fixed and locked down at the time you take them out.
Right: in particular, they're determined by the expected rate of inflation. More precisely, (loan rate) = (real rate) + (expected inflation rate). With that in mind, let's trace through your example.
Actually, no. Loan rate = expected inflation rate + risk premium + time premium. Note that as you up the expected inflation rate, the time premium goes up as well. If you have bad credit the risk premium goes up too.
So I think where you're going wrong is computing debt-to-income versus present-value-of-debt to present-value-of-income-stream. In other words, the bank doesn't care about your *current* income-to-expected-interest-payment ratio; it cares whether every month going forward you'll be able to make your payment. Since at 8% interest, your income is rising at 8% per year, the bank will take that into account, which is why it tacks on the 8% inflation premium to the 4% interest rate in the first place.
If you did that, it would mean the loan is inflation indexed, in other words, the lender adjusts the monthly nominal payment upwards (or downwards) every payment period to account for inflation (or deflation). To the best of my knowledge, there aren't any mortgage or consumer loans that work this way. An open variable rate mortage can behave this way once you're in it, but to qualify for one they still use the standard debt to income ratio system based on your current income and interest rates.

Also, you still need to make the payments in the first year or 2 before inflation gets going and does its work of inflating your debt away. So let's say the bank still loans you the same 20 year $200k at 12% interest that it did at 4%. For your first year, your monthly payment goes from $1208 to $2162. Your household budget just got raped and there's a good chance you're going to default early on in the term.

The only way it works the way you want it to is if they index the monthly payments to the inflation rate. Which does not happen. I work for a credit union. My wife works for a bank. We sure as hell don't do that with consumer loans.
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Re: Sequestration : Completely Unnecessary?

Post by J »

Surlethe wrote:The Fed needs to declare that it will begin unlimited asset purchases (probably T-bills, maybe distressed securities, whatever) starting at, say, $100 billion per month and rising 10% every month thereafter until income has risen back to the 1985-2005 trend line.

The key point is that it won't actually have to make those purchases, since investment demand will jump on the expectation of higher future incomes. In fact, as per standard monetary theory, the Fed's balance sheet grows when monetary policy is tight and the Fed's balance sheet shrinks when monetary policy is loose, so we can expect the Fed's balance sheet to shrink drastically. (Only the Fed can cause an asset's price to fall by increasing demand for it!)
The Bank of Japan instituted such a policy beginning in January of this year. We shall soon see if theory translates to reality.
I have my doubts, but we should know one way or another by the end of the year.

By the way, the Fed is already at $85 billion per month though it hasn't initiated a 10% escalator. Yet. That we know of.
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