Boyd Packer says to avoid 'Tolerance Trap'

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Todeswind
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Re: Boyd Packer says to avoid 'Tolerance Trap'

Post by Todeswind »

I was unaware that people used Warhammer 40k as a model for their sermons "Fear the xenos. Tolerance is a trap"
Dr. Trainwreck
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Re: Boyd Packer says to avoid 'Tolerance Trap'

Post by Dr. Trainwreck »

Then you were also unaware that 40k was, at first, a non-too-subtle parody of authoritarianism in general, and some Thatcherist policies in particular. There's a reason all these fundies have this distinct Imperial Cult feel.
Ποταμοῖσι τοῖσιν αὐτοῖσιν ἐμϐαίνουσιν, ἕτερα καὶ ἕτερα ὕδατα ἐπιρρεῖ. Δὶς ἐς τὸν αὐτὸν ποταμὸν οὐκ ἂν ἐμβαίης.

The seller was a Filipino called Dr. Wilson Lim, a self-declared friend of the M.I.L.F. -Grumman
Ralin
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Re: Boyd Packer says to avoid 'Tolerance Trap'

Post by Ralin »

Dr. Trainwreck wrote:Well, if all these people can manage to agree on something like that, that's no harm to me. But I noticed this hypocrisy of condemning polygamy to outsiders, while internally they keep saying there's not a problem if God likes it. If you tell me there's this difference of divine approval, why don't they make the distinction clear to outsiders?
Eh, that's pretty low on the list of things that bother me about Mormons when it come to hypocrisy. I'm sure most Christians would say that if God okayed it they'd be fine with polygamy; Mormons are just more likely to accept the heads of their church decreeing it as meaning that. The rest is just public relations. Why advertise something potentially awkward that isn't likely to be an issue in the foreseeable future?
But then it's about religion in general: no church speaks of hellfire to strangers. Probably because most of them come from a time when killing an infidel was acceptable, so they tried to hide the bigger unpleasantries.
Heh. When I was in college there was a church called Consuming Fire Ministries that regularly came to Free Speech Alley on campus to spend the afternoon telling everyone who walked by about how we'd burn in hell if we didn't accept Jesus.
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Re: Boyd Packer says to avoid 'Tolerance Trap'

Post by Dr. Trainwreck »

Really? Hypocrisy and doubletalk are high on my shit list when it comes to religion. Even Mormons.
Ποταμοῖσι τοῖσιν αὐτοῖσιν ἐμϐαίνουσιν, ἕτερα καὶ ἕτερα ὕδατα ἐπιρρεῖ. Δὶς ἐς τὸν αὐτὸν ποταμὸν οὐκ ἂν ἐμβαίης.

The seller was a Filipino called Dr. Wilson Lim, a self-declared friend of the M.I.L.F. -Grumman
Ralin
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Re: Boyd Packer says to avoid 'Tolerance Trap'

Post by Ralin »

Dr. Trainwreck wrote:Really? Hypocrisy and doubletalk are high on my shit list when it comes to religion. Even Mormons.
I'm not clear on how it's hypocritical to not go out of one's way to say that they'd be okay with polygamy if God said it was alright?
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Re: Boyd Packer says to avoid 'Tolerance Trap'

Post by Grumman »

Ralin wrote:
Dr. Trainwreck wrote:Really? Hypocrisy and doubletalk are high on my shit list when it comes to religion. Even Mormons.
I'm not clear on how it's hypocritical to not go out of one's way to say that they'd be okay with polygamy if God said it was alright?
I agree. If you don't already know that a religious person might change their tune if God tells them they're doing it wrong, it says more about you than them.
Ralin
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Re: Boyd Packer says to avoid 'Tolerance Trap'

Post by Ralin »

Yeah, I mean, if they were claiming they had never condoned polygamy or that God would never do that sure by all means mock them to your heart's content. I'll be right there with you. But I'm not seeing any hypocrisy in not actively bringing it up in front of outsiders.
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Re: Boyd Packer says to avoid 'Tolerance Trap'

Post by Dr. Trainwreck »

This is about an important question: is the official church's position the same as the opinion of the followers? I've been under the impression that the church only says "no" and the believers say "yes, if god allows it again". If this impression is correct, then I'd guess that the church leaves out the "if god allows it" bit because it is embarassing. Not exactly hypocritical, but not exactly honest either.

My assumption here, of course, is that the simple people represent their faith as fine as the church does. But then again I'm often wrong about stuff.
Ποταμοῖσι τοῖσιν αὐτοῖσιν ἐμϐαίνουσιν, ἕτερα καὶ ἕτερα ὕδατα ἐπιρρεῖ. Δὶς ἐς τὸν αὐτὸν ποταμὸν οὐκ ἂν ἐμβαίης.

The seller was a Filipino called Dr. Wilson Lim, a self-declared friend of the M.I.L.F. -Grumman
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Ziggy Stardust
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Re: Boyd Packer says to avoid 'Tolerance Trap'

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

Dr. Trainwreck wrote:This is about an important question: is the official church's position the same as the opinion of the followers? I've been under the impression that the church only says "no" and the believers say "yes, if god allows it again". If this impression is correct, then I'd guess that the church leaves out the "if god allows it" bit because it is embarassing. Not exactly hypocritical, but not exactly honest either.
Meh, I would honestly view it as more pragmatic than hypocritical or anything else. The LDS leadership knew that publicly endorsing polygamy could serve to undermine the church as a whole, and they viewed the sacrifice of that particular facet of Mormonism as necessary in order to preserve the institution more generally. At the time, there was a LOT of backlash against the church over the issue - and, IIRC, at the time the church was much smaller than it is now.
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Re: Boyd Packer says to avoid 'Tolerance Trap'

Post by Dr. Trainwreck »

"Neither honest nor hypocritical"... yeah, pragmatic might in fact be the word I'm reaching for. Ok.
Ποταμοῖσι τοῖσιν αὐτοῖσιν ἐμϐαίνουσιν, ἕτερα καὶ ἕτερα ὕδατα ἐπιρρεῖ. Δὶς ἐς τὸν αὐτὸν ποταμὸν οὐκ ἂν ἐμβαίης.

The seller was a Filipino called Dr. Wilson Lim, a self-declared friend of the M.I.L.F. -Grumman
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Ziggy Stardust
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Re: Boyd Packer says to avoid 'Tolerance Trap'

Post by Ziggy Stardust »

You could make an argument for it being hypocritical, actually, if you think about it from the perspective that the church is making decisions based on pragmatic political matters while claiming it is simply the word of God, who just temporarily changed his mind on the whole polygamy thing. You can definitely approach it from a more dogmatic angle and attack it as being hypocritical. Just from my personal perspective, the job of the church leadership is to preserve their institution, and them acting accordingly is what you expect them to do. And, in fact, it is what you want them to do, even as an atheist - think how many world problems would be solved if the edicts coming out of the Holy See were as pragmatically oriented.
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Re: Boyd Packer says to avoid 'Tolerance Trap'

Post by Dr. Trainwreck »

Halting what amounts to AIDS-assisted genocide in Africa, perhaps. But generally, I'm not sure the pragmatic approach is better by far; it depends on what it takes for them to stay in power.
Ποταμοῖσι τοῖσιν αὐτοῖσιν ἐμϐαίνουσιν, ἕτερα καὶ ἕτερα ὕδατα ἐπιρρεῖ. Δὶς ἐς τὸν αὐτὸν ποταμὸν οὐκ ἂν ἐμβαίης.

The seller was a Filipino called Dr. Wilson Lim, a self-declared friend of the M.I.L.F. -Grumman
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