WV GOP state delegate proposes compulsory SF for schools

[Connor MacLeod]

Honor Harrington isn't so much right wing as it is libertarian (IIRC) and generally technocratic (EG its literally to the point of 'push button - everyone dies. Usually by huge missile spams.') I'm curious to see if Shadow of Freedom bucks this trend (because I am a glutton for punishment and I havent' broken habit wRT honor harrington yet ) but I'm skeptical.

I was actually thinking something more along the lines of Kratman's work, or the Posleen novels in general. Honorverse is perhaps some of the LEAST authoritiarian, right wing works they have there, which should really tell you something about the direction baen has gone.

Mind you, Miles Vorkosigan isn't right wing and isnt anything like the above, so it might work. and I'm always inclined to give David Drake a pass. lol

I'm also leery of the idea that you make 'HARD' sci fi compulsory, because that might reinforce the subsets of fandom that think science fiction is ABOUT the technology. indeed that's the general vibe one gets from the proposed legislation.

[Connor MacLeod]

GAH I hate double posting. I was doing so well too.

Edit: PERFECT! ITS ALL STARKS' FAULT

[Stark]

I'm not sure Dune is a good example of an accessible story that would inculate a respect for and interest in science. :V

From my experiences with education I'd say anything even remotely interesting would be immediately disallowed by the politics of boards and departments, so odds are you're going to be very limited in what you can choose from. Again, I think this makes typical young adult literature only with SCIENCE probably the best vector, rather than stuff too complex, or too contraverisal, that'd either never be allowed or never achieve anything.

ps Connor I think we both tried to post at the same time and you doubled up.

[Admiral Valdemar]

They should just cut the SF and get straight to the science education anyway. If done right, kids will be enthralled every bit as much as if Sagan, Einstein or Dawkins was in the room with them.

[Connor MacLeod]

Something visual would be much bettr anyhow. something like Mythbusters, or Beakman's world (I used to love that show) or something quirky.

The problem really is there's no guaranteed formula to teaching kids and getting them engaged, it depends as much on random variables as any sort of 'marketing'.. but people always keep wanting to look for that SURE FIRE GUARANTEE that will make kids jump into math and science.

[Gaidin]

I'm not sure Dune is a good example of an accessible story that would inculate a respect for and interest in science. :V

From my experiences with education I'd say anything even remotely interesting would be immediately disallowed by the politics of boards and departments, so odds are you're going to be very limited in what you can choose from. Again, I think this makes typical young adult literature only with SCIENCE probably the best vector, rather than stuff too complex, or too contraverisal, that'd either never be allowed or never achieve anything.

ps Connor I think we both tried to post at the same time and you doubled up.

Dune's not necessarily the one I'd throw in there. I was just having trouble thinking of an american author that could stand alongside other more classic writings. Every other one was Europe or somewhere else(Verne was France, Wells was England), making them a bit hard to replace one of the more annoying books in an American Literature course with.

[Stark]

Well the issue with 'respect for science' is that stock characters in childrens fiction that like or are good at science are generally the butt of jokes or boring. The power of good presentations is that they can show that it actually isn't boring and the people involved aren't tiresome numbers-quoting beardos - they're regular adults who know a lot of stuff. Who was that guy who did the WHY IS IT SO shows? That guy could sell anything, and way pretty far removed from the way bookish, quiet and nerdy children are generally portrayed in children's fiction.

And reading lists for highschool (at least in AU) are basically horrible things to design, and the pressures on selection are largely why they have such a preponderance of amazingly boring, dense, old, and otherwise inappropriate books for children instead of being anything relevant or interesting.

But AU doesn't have the additional disability of wanting specifically Australian books.

[Connor MacLeod]

'Marketing' is a good way to describe this, because what it amounts to is to try to connive some clever way to brainwash kids into being smarter. Thats not how you go about it, but I think its indicative of the mindset that the person thinks that because THEY like this stuff, they can force it on other kids and expect tHEM to like it.


Edit: This would be an interesting idea to, like, use fiction stories (not just technologically oriented ones) to promote discussion of ideas and concepts relating to humans (something like 'The moon is a Harsh Mistress' or if we go with the Asimov example we could go with the robot stories, as the nature of the different factions of humanity (and how they relate to robots) in the books... but this really isn't about discussion of ideas so much as a form of propoganda.

[Simon_Jester]

This is really the core of it. If you ask a 'scifi person' what books can sell scifi to normal people or children or the less educated, you'll just get a list of scifi that person likes...

Yeah. Anvil works better if you have background knowledge, for example. Not science in particular, but just general stuff about human nature and so on, though I bet a smart kid could like some of his stuff.

Its the accessibility that is lacking in modern scifi, and something like sciencey Harry Potter or sciency Twilight or other mass market thing is what you need. Something anyone can read or enjoy whilst also being exposed to the ideas you want to encourage.

People used to specifically write that kind of thing, stuff like the Heinlein juveniles. Which would actually be good choices if they weren't so dated.

I think the mentioned works are particularily odd in that many of Asimov's stories don't really deal with tech directly.. the technology (like in Asimov's robot novels) is largely an artifice to drive the plot and the discussion of ideas, and that wouldnt have much to do with 'science'.

Asimov's problem is that his stories are very cerebral. Call it a glorified logic puzzle if you like, but there's a certain delight in being a kid who can grasp the logic puzzle that drives a story; that's where a lot of the fun of things like detective stories comes from. Asimov, though, is good for engaging smart kids who are already in the habit of wrestling with and enjoying idea-driven stories, not so good for engaging kids who don't already have that knack.

[B5B7]

The idea of a compulsory SF course is basically ridiculous. The rationale doesn't work - want to make kids interested in science and maths - well make them interesting, and encourage respect for them. Now having SF as an actual elective course subject has potential, if have qualified good specialist teachers. When I was in high school way back when (1960s) we had several books in English - I remember in particular Shakespeare's 'Julius Caesar', 'The Red Badge of Courage' (which I don't think I actually bothered reading at that time, but I have read it since leaving school) and John Wyndham's 'The Chrysalids' - the latter of course being SF. Also, 'Animal Farm' (not SF as such but related).
The school library also had some SF books, but my main source for SF was the public library.

[Stark]

Are you telling me you think the suggestion is to institute 45 minutes of science fiction a day?

[Irbis]

Honor Harrington isn't so much right wing as it is libertarian (IIRC)

Series where good guys are an alliance of jingoist monarchies, RELIGION makes you strong, every center- or left-leaning party is populated by imbeciles, gun owning is Holy™ and both main enemies are parodies of European socialist state is not right wing?

Maybe in comparison to Kratman, indeed.
Spoiler

Also of note, decision by left-leaning guy who found himself in power to turn down military spending on FUCKHUGE military and instead to invest in technological edge is one single thing that saved his country, and gave Manticore source of free manpower to continue the war. Yet he is still vilified, disgraced, and shat upon, and it's jingoist right-wingers who grabbed power from him that get to reap rewards from his reforms - despite voting against them. How a character can in one chapter tear her political enemy for decommissioning obsolete ships, then in battle several chapters later say few remaining obsolete ships she has are only junk weighting her modern ones down, and never reflect on how idiotic her speeches were (despite her being supposedly military genius) I will never know.

[The Romulan Republic]

Bear makes a great point...could this be some obfuscated way of getting Ayn Rand books declared mandatory in official school curricula?

Since your article says the politician behind this likes Verne and Asimov, I am optimistic that this is sincere and not just an attempt to get libertarian propaganda.

[Simon_Jester]

Honor Harrington isn't so much right wing as it is libertarian (IIRC)

Series where good guys are an alliance of jingoist monarchies,

Parliamentary democracy is right-wing now?

RELIGION makes you strong,

Unless it makes you a homicidal maniac antagonist...

every center- or left-leaning party is populated by imbeciles...

NOW you have a point.

Also of note, decision by left-leaning guy who found himself in power to turn down military spending on FUCKHUGE military and instead to invest in technological edge is one single thing that saved his country, and gave Manticore source of free manpower to continue the war.

Wait who what?

[sorry, I'm despoilering because anyone who by now hasn't read the earlier Harrington novels has no excuse, some of them have been in print for 15-20 years and are literally available online for free]

Yet he is still vilified, disgraced, and shat upon, and it's jingoist right-wingers who grabbed power from him that get to reap rewards from his reforms - despite voting against them. How a character can in one chapter tear her political enemy for decommissioning obsolete ships, then in battle several chapters later say few remaining obsolete ships she has are only junk weighting her modern ones down, and never reflect on how idiotic her speeches were (despite her being supposedly military genius) I will never know.

Good point. When exactly did that happen? I don't disagree, but I don't remember, either.

Also, yes real military geniuses are sometimes political idiots. Frankly, Harrington's political skills never really matured beyond the "sit quietly and listen to advisers" level, or at least I can't remember her ever exercising political skills herself instead of borrowing someone else's.

[Dr. Trainwreck]

Does Weber provide any hint that he is even aware of the discrepancy? I mean Honor ragging about something one moment and praising it the next, sure, that happens to real life people too. Does the writer have another character acknowledge she's being stupid, or drop a hint in the narrative? It smacks of bad writing.

[Zixinus]

Not a bad thought, but do you know what would also raise interest in maths and natural sciences?

Investing in the teaching of maths and natural science education. I have nothing more to substantiate that than anyone else, but does that not make more sense?

I mean, if they can be paid, you can invest in making more educational resources available (there is potential in that with the internet and smartphones becoming popular). Then there are more traditional ideas, like "science summer camp" or organizing science shows, math competitions between schools (of course, these have the danger that they may make kids over-specialized towards competition rather than the subject), etc. Hell, why not hire some small-scale media maker to work together with teachers to present material in new and interesting way? Does anyone know how popular stuff like smartphones and tablets are among high-schoolers? Because if it is, then I believe there is potential in using that media to educate.

As for SF books, they are literature and should be handled as such. I cannot imagine having truly much of a plot worth reading in the first place and having a story that relies primarily on good, classroom-science that kids can do themselves. Or if it is done, it would be very hard to pull off and would likely be a balancing act that will inevitably fall towards one end or the other. So you have either a good book that apparently randomly drops classroom-level problems, or a workbook with very imaginative problem descriptions.

I don't believe that reading SF books would necessarily make one better able to understand real science or even math. That sounds something SF fans would like to believe. What the OP politician is talking about however, is not actually to necessarily raise educational standards, but to have SF books that offer new, different ideas than what the existing curriculum offers. Maybe that curriculum should be updated as a whole, rather than thought fixed by showing in some SF books?

[Stark]

And literally none of those ideas are as cheap as 'put some more sciencey books on the reading list'. I think they recognise that a cultural shift is required after twenty years or more of HAHA SCIENCE NURDS (ironicaly nerds don't even know science anymore lol). Where does culture start? In the way people talk about things. Changing that attitude is a good start, even if 'what terrible books the kids are forced at gunpoint to write shitty reports on' probably isn't the best place.

Where you do get your claim that reading SF books should make you better able to understand real science?

[Zixinus]

And literally none of those ideas are as cheap as 'put some more sciencey books on the reading list'.

By that, do you mean non-fiction books?

Where you do get your claim that reading SF books should make you better able to understand real science?

Maybe it was implied somewhere. Probably an implication of the "reading sf books will make more students take up math and science". It can be disregarded.

[Stark]

My point is, pal, that you appear to have fundamentally missed the point of the article. They recognise that many people don't value or respect these industries as they did in the past, and feel that exposing children to ideas like 'science isn't actually boring' and 'maths is interesting' early on might in some way shift attitudes toward them. Media is a powerful tool for shaping attitudes, and its arguable that the modern perception of science and maths was created in the media of the 70s and 80s.

[Simon_Jester]

Does Weber provide any hint that he is even aware of the discrepancy?

Not... really.

He's got the same problem that, say, Stuart had: he's keenly aware of military logic, but he's not so hot at understanding the economic underpinnings and grand strategic stuff that makes good military strategy practical. At least, not beyond the caveman-like Fox-News-watching-intellectual version of "freedom causes prosperity causes victory!"

I mean Honor ragging about something one moment and praising it the next, sure, that happens to real life people too. Does the writer have another character acknowledge she's being stupid, or drop a hint in the narrative? It smacks of bad writing.

"It smacks of bad writing." Yep, that's the word.

[Dr. Trainwreck]

I'd love to see science fiction that doesn't bother with numbers, I'd really do. Basically, give me a writer who is actually a writer, not an overspecialized idiot with a political agenda to screech about, and I'll just... forgive his other flaws, I really will.

[Simon_Jester]

There's actually a huge amount of SF that doesn't bother with numbers, or in which the numbers are so, so very subordinate to the story that they don't matter. Except maybe for understanding stuff like "we lost three things out of twelve, and they're important, which means bad news."

The real challenge is finding the SF that's been written by a truly good writer, and there's plenty of that, you just won't find it at Baen Books unless the writer in question is David Drake.

[fordlltwm]

I read some of E.E. Doc Smiths works when I was ~16 and really enjoyed them, that sort of space opera with science thrown in would work better in schools, but probably can't be over-analysed like books on reading lists have to be. Literature class in secondary school nearly put me off reading all together due to it's stupid analysis of irrelevant details, to (mis)quote someone "Sometimes the curtains are just blue,". It's a great idea in principal but I suspect you'd get SFs version of Shakespeare, tedious, irrelevant, and completely overrated. I can't say that dissecting the first chapter of many Sci Fi books would really thrill me.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Based purely on my own experiences with GCSE English Literature, pretty much anything would have been better than what we got. I would have much preferred to do an in-depth analysis of 2010: Odyssey Two or The War of the Worlds. It would certainly beat Far From The Madding Crowd. The other two books at least had guns and rockets and pew pew to grab hold on the interest of the male-only school.

[Stark]

I'd love to see science fiction that doesn't bother with numbers, I'd really do. Basically, give me a writer who is actually a writer, not an overspecialized idiot with a political agenda to screech about, and I'll just... forgive his other flaws, I really will.

You mean like... all those books? In actual stories, infodumps and obsession with mechanical features are a feature of only a part of the genre. Hell, even lots of pew pew stuff doesn't push clunky bullshit to the foreground and is instead about people and events and that sort of thing. Ironically, the 'hardest' scifi stuff I've read ALSO has no actual number wanking bullshit, because it's about fundamental stuff and not RESEARCHED ULTRACRETE FOR 5X THE PSI.