Welcome to the age of the printed gun
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Re: Welcome to the age of the printed gun
This really doesn't seem that impressive, especially for the price. Manuals on how to make far more effective guns for far cheaper have been available for a long time. This is pretty much just a really fucking expensive zip gun that isn't much safer or more effective then one you can make for a tiny fraction of the cost. Hell, for 8 grand you could probably set up a production line of homemade submachine guns.
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- Sith Acolyte
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Re: Welcome to the age of the printed gun
A complete ban would be impossible to justify. But that is not what I'm asking about.RogueIce wrote:How exactly would you justify that restriction, since there are other applications for 3D printers than just "making guns".bilateralrope wrote:I'm not talking about making the 3d printers unable to print guns.
I'm talking about making the 3d printer itself hard for the gun wanting individual to acquire.
I'm only asking how hard it would be to increase the cost of acquiring a 3d printer than anyone wanting an illegal gun will acquire it without first acquiring a 3d printer. Maybe make the 3d printers more expensive, maybe make them take longer to acquire. Maybe 3d printers are already expensive enough that no action is needed.
Since when is trying to stop gun violence from increasing pointless ?Starglider wrote:Everyone with a clue in this thread and the previous thread has told you that 3D printers are just an incremental addition to the existing possibilities for home made guns, that does not significantly change the situation authorities already deal with. Yet off you go trying to fulfil some desperate need to crush innovation, imprison random creative people and generally shove yet more pointless and ineffective beurecracy in everyone's faces.bilateralrope wrote:I'm talking about making the 3d printer itself hard for the gun wanting individual to acquire.
Some consistency from you would also be nice. Someone figures out a way to make it easier for people to kill each other, you complain about an attempt to stop it. But when unemployed people are made to carry out bullshit tests in order to receive welfare, tests that probably increase the cost of the welfare system as a whole, you support it.
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Re: Welcome to the age of the printed gun
They already are.bilateralrope wrote:
A complete ban would be impossible to justify. But that is not what I'm asking about.
I'm only asking how hard it would be to increase the cost of acquiring a 3d printer than anyone wanting an illegal gun will acquire it without first acquiring a 3d printer. Maybe make the 3d printers more expensive, maybe make them take longer to acquire. Maybe 3d printers are already expensive enough that no action is needed.
"Gun violence" is a result of social and economic factors, as is most crime. Direct your ire at the people who obstruct those changes. This will still be a novelty for hobbyists ten years from now and people who want an illicit gun will do what they all do. Go see that sketchy friend.Since when is trying to stop gun violence from increasing pointless ?Starglider wrote:Everyone with a clue in this thread and the previous thread has told you that 3D printers are just an incremental addition to the existing possibilities for home made guns, that does not significantly change the situation authorities already deal with. Yet off you go trying to fulfil some desperate need to crush innovation, imprison random creative people and generally shove yet more pointless and ineffective beurecracy in everyone's faces.bilateralrope wrote:I'm talking about making the 3d printer itself hard for the gun wanting individual to acquire.
Some consistency from you would also be nice. Someone figures out a way to make it easier for people to kill each other, you complain about an attempt to stop it. But when unemployed people are made to carry out bullshit tests in order to receive welfare, tests that probably increase the cost of the welfare system as a whole, you support it.
Re: Welcome to the age of the printed gun
3D Printers by their nature are big loud and expensive as hell. The printer for this gun can be purchased for the cost of a decently equipped luxury car. And is pointed out from time to time someplace like Switzerland despite having half as many guns it does not have half the violence rate it has only 14% the number of gun related homicides per thousand. Which if you eliminate American big cities is a rate most of a America has. Turns out if you strip out poverty, dense urban conditions and large lucrative criminal organizations you get Virgina's murder rate VS Washington DC's.
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Re: Welcome to the age of the printed gun
That's actually the scenario I worry about the most. At least for me, a new method of making Saturday Night Specials doesn't change too much. But I think there are a lot of people who would like to see 3D printing fail, and this might be their excuse to strangle it in the crib. For The Children, of course.Zaune wrote:That's a thought, actually. This popgun's just given governments an excellent excuse to ban 3D printers, which have the potential to break a lot of long-established business models and therefore cause a lot of very influential people to lose money.
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Re: Welcome to the age of the printed gun
Apart from the demonstration model's lump of inert steel to ensure it's legal, we're talking about a gun that might not set off metal detectors, which last I checked was illegal in the US.
Then there's the whole 'doesn't care about the consequences'....
Then there's the whole 'doesn't care about the consequences'....
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Re: Welcome to the age of the printed gun
The groups stated intention is to go full Ayn Rand and bring down ALL GOVERNMENTS through total deregulation of firearms and arming extremists.
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Re: Welcome to the age of the printed gun
Did you actually read their web site? I did and that position is not stated anywhere.The Yosemite Bear wrote:The groups stated intention is to go full Ayn Rand and bring down ALL GOVERNMENTS through total deregulation of firearms and arming extremists.
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Re: Welcome to the age of the printed gun
I don't think another method how to very expensively obtain a crude gun will change much. People who usually tinker with electronics and DIY gadgetry usually are not the type of person who would go out on a shooting spree.
A criminal desperately wanting a gun in a country with tight gun laws could much less expensively construct a gun of similar crudeness from hardware store parts. If he has some metalworking skills and tools or know people who know the right people he could get something more effective and lethal than this piece of plastic.All for fraction of the cost of 3D printer.
If I really wanted to make a crude gun I probably could make it from various pieces of metal I have lying around in my house. Use ball bearings as projectiles and get propellant from fireworks. Probably would be as deadly as any 18 th centurey musket. No 3d printer required.
A criminal desperately wanting a gun in a country with tight gun laws could much less expensively construct a gun of similar crudeness from hardware store parts. If he has some metalworking skills and tools or know people who know the right people he could get something more effective and lethal than this piece of plastic.All for fraction of the cost of 3D printer.
If I really wanted to make a crude gun I probably could make it from various pieces of metal I have lying around in my house. Use ball bearings as projectiles and get propellant from fireworks. Probably would be as deadly as any 18 th centurey musket. No 3d printer required.
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Re: Welcome to the age of the printed gun
Or you could build a crossbow. Not exactly on the same level of usefulness as a gun, but the mechanics and engineering involved are more within the grasp of your average Bubba-Joe.
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Re: Welcome to the age of the printed gun
Or buy a crossbow for that matter.
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- Aaron MkII
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Re: Welcome to the age of the printed gun
Certainly cheaper then either the 3D gun or a street gun. They aren't subject to the same controls either, at least here, just have to be 18+
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Re: Welcome to the age of the printed gun
with the right tip for the arrows wouldn't any modern bow/crossbow be more or less just as leathal as a regular handgun and I mean stuff like serrated or barbed tips.
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Re: Welcome to the age of the printed gun
If you buy one for hunting and the proper arrows, then yes. People use them all the time here for deer and bear.
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Re: Welcome to the age of the printed gun
Any good crossbow will enable you to hit a fist sized target at 100 yards, and a man's torso reliably at 200+ yards. It will penetrate 30+ inches of flesh and most bulletproof vests. That is more than you could expect of most handguns. Same for a bow. People say in a duel between handgun and an archer(or crossbowyer) at range, you should always bet on the archer.Lord Revan wrote:with the right tip for the arrows wouldn't any modern bow/crossbow be more or less just as leathal as a regular handgun and I mean stuff like serrated or barbed tips.
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Re: Welcome to the age of the printed gun
A crossbow also make very little noise when fired. If you want to assasinate someone and get away unnoticed then crossbow have major advantage. Only problem it is bulky and more difficult to hide, but so is most rifles. that would reliably hit and kill someone at 100+ meters.
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Re: Welcome to the age of the printed gun
How hard are they to cock (or draw, whatever the proper xbow term is)? I know 150lb draw weight is recommended for deer/black bear but I've never used one.LaCroix wrote:Any good crossbow will enable you to hit a fist sized target at 100 yards, and a man's torso reliably at 200+ yards. It will penetrate 30+ inches of flesh and most bulletproof vests. That is more than you could expect of most handguns. Same for a bow. People say in a duel between handgun and an archer(or crossbowyer) at range, you should always bet on the archer.Lord Revan wrote:with the right tip for the arrows wouldn't any modern bow/crossbow be more or less just as leathal as a regular handgun and I mean stuff like serrated or barbed tips.
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Re: Welcome to the age of the printed gun
Well, you step in a footrest and pull with your back muscles and arms in unison, and usually have a pull cable to save your fingers, so 150lb is easily manageable.
In this vid, you can see that each "missing" arrow would have missed the target by less than a foot, and was quite dead center - he just had to dial in his scope...
Extrapolating the flat angle of arrival, this crossbow could probably deliver a bolt over 500+ yards, if you hunt for garden sheds or small barns...
~1000$ will give you a crossbow (usually with optics) capable this range and accuracy. He used this one here - Darton Fireforce 185lbs. A useful standard 150lbs recourve crossbow (Barnets are quite nice) will go for 2-400$ new.
Look for fps - they are a better indicator than draw weight - everything over 300fps is a fine machine, 400fps are about max performance these days. Always choose a compound over recourve, the efficiency is worlds better - a compound will achieve easily 50% more fps for the same draw weight.
In this vid, you can see that each "missing" arrow would have missed the target by less than a foot, and was quite dead center - he just had to dial in his scope...
Extrapolating the flat angle of arrival, this crossbow could probably deliver a bolt over 500+ yards, if you hunt for garden sheds or small barns...
~1000$ will give you a crossbow (usually with optics) capable this range and accuracy. He used this one here - Darton Fireforce 185lbs. A useful standard 150lbs recourve crossbow (Barnets are quite nice) will go for 2-400$ new.
Look for fps - they are a better indicator than draw weight - everything over 300fps is a fine machine, 400fps are about max performance these days. Always choose a compound over recourve, the efficiency is worlds better - a compound will achieve easily 50% more fps for the same draw weight.
A minute's thought suggests that the very idea of this is stupid. A more detailed examination raises the possibility that it might be an answer to the question "how could the Germans win the war after the US gets involved?" - Captain Seafort, in a thread proposing a 1942 'D-Day' in Quiberon Bay
I do archery skeet. With a Trebuchet.
I do archery skeet. With a Trebuchet.
Re: Welcome to the age of the printed gun
Forget manufacturing a crossbow. A fucking slingshot is a lethal weapon. Along with being much more concealable, easier to manufacture (as far as I can see, the only big thing is decent rubber. Spear-gun rubber should do it), better rate of fire, you can also carry a shit-load more ammo. In your pocket.
The guy's best results are:
The guy's best results are:
That may not match a rifle, but three inches into someone's body sounds like it could be lethal enough.The heavy lead projectiles that were doing 150 - 175 fps made it through 6 inches of water with some energy to spare. That would translate to over 3 inches penetration in ballistics gelatin.
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Re: Welcome to the age of the printed gun
I considered the sling, but I wanted to draw a line at a reasonable middle point between ease-of-use, effectiveness, and cost. Slingshots are cheap and simple, but I would wonder if they represent too much of a trade-off in overall effectiveness to make gains in cost and simplicity.
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Re: Welcome to the age of the printed gun
Because it's an irrational and unfounded fear to start with, and because the proposed methods can't and won't work. Your desperate 'ban everything that makes me scared' mentality is the same one that resulted in the massively counterproductive and excessive war on drugs and the abandonment of civil liberties in the hysteria-driven war on terrorism.bilateralrope wrote:Since when is trying to stop gun violence from increasing pointless?
If there was a strong trend of 3D printed guns being used to commit crimes, then we should look and see if there are any viable mitigation measures, and consider whether the likely reduction in crime is worth the restriction of commerce and liberty (probably not). Since this isn't going to happen there is no cause for any sort of legislation. Trying to make up restrictions in advance of a real problem and without any understanding of the technology involved is the definition of a fear-driven statist power-grab.
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Re: Welcome to the age of the printed gun
I worry more about these guns literally failing in the hands of users than I do about their illegal use.
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Re: Welcome to the age of the printed gun
Anyone have an idea of its expected service life?FSTargetDrone wrote:I worry more about these guns literally failing in the hands of users than I do about their illegal use.
Re: Welcome to the age of the printed gun
Well, from the OP:
And:
Of course, I have no idea of the fairness of that test, whether a normal pistol would also explode if loaded with a rifle round.The printed gun seems limited, for now, to certain calibers of ammunition. After the handgun round, Wilson switched out the Liberator’s barrel for a higher-charge 5.7×28 rifle cartridge. He and John retreated to a safe distance, and John pulled his yellow string again. This time the gun exploded, sending shards of white ABS plastic flying into the weeds and bringing the Liberator’s first field trial to an abrupt end.
And:
Don't know how catastrophic the "break" was, but all in all something that you won't find me wrapping my hand around.Wilson showed me a video of an ABS plastic barrel the group printed attached to a non-printed gun body firing ten rounds of .380 ammunition before breaking on the eleventh
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Re: Welcome to the age of the printed gun
No. I'll wait for the technology to mature.