Terrorist? Wanna Buy a Gun? The GOP Is On Your Side!

[Alkaloid]

Do you people take lessons to be this fucking stupid? He clearly isn't saying he wants to use the watchlist. His point is that its fucking ridiculous that the GOP are vocally supporting people on it being able to but guns but haven't uttered a peep about them being able to board a plane. If asked I'd bet dollars to donuts most of them support the idea of the no fly list. There may also be a dig in there at the hypocrisy of it, but I suspect that's a bit to subtle for you all as apparently anything short of an itemised list of all a persons opinions on a given subject leave you short of oxygen to the brain.

[Sea Skimmer]

Maybe because of the fact that one thing is very explicitly in the constitution, while the other is not plays a factor idiot. They are not even on remotely the same level in any legal terms.

[Alyeska]

Which is it, Flagg? Do you support the goddamn watch list or do you not support it? If you do not support it then why are you advocating using such a flawed system that's so readily abused or nullified?

Oh no, "terrorists" might stockpile weapons. Or some poor bastard who got added to the list by mistake gets their rights infringed on so widdle ol' Fwagg can go to sleep without his goddamn nightlight on. Are terrorists using stockpiled weapons really such a huge fucking threat?

9/11 happened almost 12 years ago, people. Stop shitting your pants every time someone says "terrorist" already. Move on, stop being a bunch of scared little wienies and stop trying to undermine our goddamn civil rights for an illusion of safety.



And no, I haven't been drinking, but goddamn if the level of pussy asshole behavior we've apparently been reduced to doesn't make me want to get a good running start to jump right the fuck off the wagon.

Coffee, I know you're just a dumb hick, but you must be able to fucking read. You do post here... poorly.

Flagg. Answer the fucking question. This isn't a request. This is coming from a mod. You are being evasive now.

[TheFeniX]

American Republicans are hypocrits, news at 11. The NRA was hijacked decades ago by psychos: you people act like you've caught onto something sane (read: a vast majority) of gun owners didn't already know. We actually keep up with this shit because it's a topic that concerns us more so than when you turn on the TV and you hear scary music and the term "Assault X" or "AK-47" and you freak the fuck out. Unfortunately, there just isn't anyone else fighting for gun owner rights and they've done a bang-up job cultivating the religious conservatives (or vice-versa), which makes them a pretty solid conservative lobbying group.

But there's certainly nothing hypocritical about a political party that prides itself on civil liberties to use a system they should oppose on principal to score brownie points with their base while accomplishing absolutely nothing. Just as Republicans could afford to... stop being shit-heads, Democrats could likely bridge a major gap if they actually hired some people to come up with information about gun violence in the US or just started listening to the BATF. As it stands right now, Congressional Democrats know less about how violent crime works in this country than some dumb hick from Texas, at least according to the bullshit they say and vote on.

Hilariously, unless I'm mistaken, a version of the no guns for people on the watch list was attempted by the Bush admin and the NRA flipped it's shit and Bush backed down. But Google is almost useless for anything not related to the current vote right now though. Still, I don't recall Democrats giving two shits about the no-fly list even after it took Ted Kennedy weeks to get himself off it. Before that, he just started to use his middle initial to defeat the system. So, go figure, American Democrats are hypocrits.

As shitty as Republicans are, Democrats will literally stop at nothing in their brain-dead crusade to wipe legal gun owners off the earth. What gun owner is going to associate with a political party that believes you're one road bump away from murdering everyone around you?

[Flagg]

Which is it, Flagg? Do you support the goddamn watch list or do you not support it? If you do not support it then why are you advocating using such a flawed system that's so readily abused or nullified?

Oh no, "terrorists" might stockpile weapons. Or some poor bastard who got added to the list by mistake gets their rights infringed on so widdle ol' Fwagg can go to sleep without his goddamn nightlight on. Are terrorists using stockpiled weapons really such a huge fucking threat?

9/11 happened almost 12 years ago, people. Stop shitting your pants every time someone says "terrorist" already. Move on, stop being a bunch of scared little wienies and stop trying to undermine our goddamn civil rights for an illusion of safety.



And no, I haven't been drinking, but goddamn if the level of pussy asshole behavior we've apparently been reduced to doesn't make me want to get a good running start to jump right the fuck off the wagon.

Coffee, I know you're just a dumb hick, but you must be able to fucking read. You do post here... poorly.

Flagg. Answer the fucking question. This isn't a request. This is coming from a mod. You are being evasive now.

I already fucking answered it. I do not support terrorism watch lists or no fly lists. This is on page one.

[Alkaloid]

Maybe because of the fact that one thing is very explicitly in the constitution, while the other is not plays a factor idiot. They are not even on remotely the same level in any legal terms

That might have done bearing if I mentioned the legality of the situation at all. I was actually rendering to the people demanding to know why flagg supported any sort of terrorist watching which his posts would indicate he doesn't. But hey, what harm can one more person failing to read/wilfully misinterpreting peoples posts in an american gun control thread do?

[Mr. Coffee]

I already fucking answered it. I do not support terrorism watch lists or no fly lists. This is on page one.

Then why do you support such bullshit as a basis for potentially restricting the rights of US citizens?

[The Kernel]

The fact it is "Suspected" terrorists says everything about why you should stand with the GOP on this issue. In fact I know you've had trouble with getting prescription painkillers because you're a suspected drug user, Flagg, so I'd have thought you'd see the obvious parallels to "we take away your constitutional rights over suspicion" that you already suffer under.

You don't know how prescription drug controls work in the US do you? There is no centralized "watch list" of suspected drug users despite what anyone might tell you--there ARE activity databases (such as my state's C.U.R.E.S. database) but they are purely for the purpose of sharing fill activities in a HIPPA compliant fashion--it is at up to the Pharmacist to decide what to do with the data and you have to be doing something pretty fucking obvious to get flagged in these systems (liking picking picking up two prescriptions for similar types of drugs from different doctors at different pharmacies) in order to get caught.

None of this is applicable to a terrorism watch list naturally since no one is going to transparently tell you how anyone ends up on it or give the end consumers of the data the ability to parse false positives based on the raw information. And that's really the difference here and why you (inadvertently) brought up an excellent example of successful use of such data to stop abuse and criminal activity.

[Flagg]

I already fucking answered it. I do not support terrorism watch lists or no fly lists. This is on page one.

Then why do you support such bullshit as a basis for potentially restricting the rights of US citizens?

Who said I did you fucking troglodyte? I just find it hilarious that these asshole Republicans don't give a shit about people's rights until it comes to their oh so precious guns.

[Flagg]

The fact it is "Suspected" terrorists says everything about why you should stand with the GOP on this issue. In fact I know you've had trouble with getting prescription painkillers because you're a suspected drug user, Flagg, so I'd have thought you'd see the obvious parallels to "we take away your constitutional rights over suspicion" that you already suffer under.

You don't know how prescription drug controls work in the US do you? There is no centralized "watch list" of suspected drug users despite what anyone might tell you--there ARE activity databases (such as my state's C.U.R.E.S. database) but they are purely for the purpose of sharing fill activities in a HIPPA compliant fashion--it is at up to the Pharmacist to decide what to do with the data and you have to be doing something pretty fucking obvious to get flagged in these systems (liking picking picking up two prescriptions for similar types of drugs from different doctors at different pharmacies) in order to get caught.

None of this is applicable to a terrorism watch list naturally since no one is going to transparently tell you how anyone ends up on it or give the end consumers of the data the ability to parse false positives based on the raw information. And that's really the difference here and why you (inadvertently) brought up an excellent example of successful use of such data to stop abuse and criminal activity.

Well I haven't done any of that and I got flagged. The formula I'm told is that if you goto the ER too much with things like headaches or abdominal pain and are allergic to NSAIDS you can get flagged, which is apparently what happened to me.

[The Kernel]

Being on a government blacklist does not mean you are a terrorist or should be treated like one. Extrajudicial punishments like this seem to be on shaky ground outside the US let alone within its borders.

Shaky grounds is being incredibly generous. The constitution doesn't rank civil rights; how far would anyone support a watch list to deny suspected terrorists the right to practice Islam? Oh but hey better yet, since foreign nationals without green cards already are banned from buy guns or ammunition, we just found our precedent for not applying the constitution to foreigners, so all that torture is now plainly 100% legal. Go freedom.

Do you feel the same way about bank AML/CFT lists? Because people on these lists are denied access to the entire international financial system (in addition to giving the banks authority to freeze your assets) which seems to be a bit more of an imposition than controls over firearms.

[The Kernel]

Well I haven't done any of that and I got flagged. The formula I'm told is that if you goto the ER too much with things like headaches or abdominal pain and are allergic to NSAIDS you can get flagged, which is apparently what happened to me.

You aren't flagged, it's up to the Pharmacist or prescribing MD to interpret that information. Go to a different Pharmacy or Doctor and you might get a different interpretation--also if you see someone you have a longstanding relationship with they can count that as a factor in your favor. These things are like credit checks in that they provide historical data but they aren't the end-all-be-all and people are allowed to interpret the data and take into account patient circumstances.

And yes you certainly run the risk of looking like a drug seeker by doing things like that--people with chronic pain issues shouldn't be going to the ER but rather should be seeing a specialist in such matters.

[The Kernel]

I already fucking answered it. I do not support terrorism watch lists or no fly lists. This is on page one.

Then why do you support such bullshit as a basis for potentially restricting the rights of US citizens?

Maybe because it is already used as the basis for hosts of other controls that don't involve things that kill people?

I'm not saying I particularly enjoy how opaque the terrorism lists are but complaining that they are hindering the purchasing of firearms when you can't fly or even have money in a bank account when you are on one of these lists seems like complaining about the color of the drapes when the house is on fire.

[The Kernel]

For anyone who doesn't know what I'm talking about, please follow this link:

WorldCompliance

This is the company that acts as a centralized database for most of the world's financial institutions. The way most banks look at this is that they are better safe than sorry so they cast a wide net and anyone who trips the flags gets a boot out the door. They also monitor their internal customer lists against these databases regularly so if you ever match up you can count on all your assets being frozen right away.

If you probe into the source lists that this company uses you will notice that its a compiled list that basically scrubs and normalizes government databases from all over the world but does nothing to interpret the truth of them. So if you are on the UK terror list then you won't be able to open a bank account in the US and vice-versa. There is no appeal and no oversight to this in any meaningful way.

[Sea Skimmer]

Do you feel the same way about bank AML/CFT lists? Because people on these lists are denied access to the entire international financial system (in addition to giving the banks authority to freeze your assets) which seems to be a bit more of an imposition than controls over firearms.

The US Government has a clear constitutional power to regulate interstate commerce, which includes the banking system. This power has been interpreted incredibly broadly since the 1930s when FDR threatened to pack the supreme court. That power actually happens to be the only reason most US gun laws get away with existing at the federal level, and its used extensively to ban items and services on a nationwide basis; like all drug laws for the easy example, but also near total bans on things like sports gambling.

Those lists are overused sure, but they are not blatantly unconstitutional power grabs by the standard of nearly the last century of US government. Simply declaring an explicit constitutional right no longer applies on mere suspicion remains a much greater misuse of government power, that is just the reality of how the US constitution works. Its a government of limited but vast power, while the citizens have limited rights at the same time. You aren't supposed to use the damn power to take away the rights. That's the entire point of writing down certain ones. Everything else might as well be a grab bag.

[The Kernel]

I'm not sure why you think the government having the right to seize all of your money without due process is not a violation of your rights but regulating firearms is, especially when you need money in order to purchase firearms in the first place.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

The fact it is "Suspected" terrorists says everything about why you should stand with the GOP on this issue. In fact I know you've had trouble with getting prescription painkillers because you're a suspected drug user, Flagg, so I'd have thought you'd see the obvious parallels to "we take away your constitutional rights over suspicion" that you already suffer under.

You don't know how prescription drug controls work in the US do you? There is no centralized "watch list" of suspected drug users despite what anyone might tell you--there ARE activity databases (such as my state's C.U.R.E.S. database) but they are purely for the purpose of sharing fill activities in a HIPPA compliant fashion--it is at up to the Pharmacist to decide what to do with the data and you have to be doing something pretty fucking obvious to get flagged in these systems (liking picking picking up two prescriptions for similar types of drugs from different doctors at different pharmacies) in order to get caught.

None of this is applicable to a terrorism watch list naturally since no one is going to transparently tell you how anyone ends up on it or give the end consumers of the data the ability to parse false positives based on the raw information. And that's really the difference here and why you (inadvertently) brought up an excellent example of successful use of such data to stop abuse and criminal activity.

I was going off what Flagg had himself said before. Nothing more and nothing less.

[Mr. Coffee]

Who said I did you fucking troglodyte? I just find it hilarious that these asshole Republicans don't give a shit about people's rights until it comes to their oh so precious guns.

Yes, just like I find it hilarious that democrats do the exact same shit when it's one of their political hobby horses on the block. Welcome to US politics. So did you just make a thread so you can spew bullshit or yet another thread where you talk a bunch of shit, gets called out on it, and then run behind the "I was just making fun of republicans, hurr hurr" bullshit? Seriously, if all you wanted to do was troll then be fuckin' honest about it. Better yet, just shut the fuck up so those of us with an actual opinion beyond shallow asshole politics trolling can talk.

[Mr. Coffee]

I already fucking answered it. I do not support terrorism watch lists or no fly lists. This is on page one.

Then why do you support such bullshit as a basis for potentially restricting the rights of US citizens?

Maybe because it is already used as the basis for hosts of other controls that don't involve things that kill people?

So you're saying "hey, the government already does shady bullshit, let's let them go ahead and do even more shady shit"?

I'm not saying I particularly enjoy how opaque the terrorism lists are but complaining that they are hindering the purchasing of firearms when you can't fly or even have money in a bank account when you are on one of these lists seems like complaining about the color of the drapes when the house is on fire.

No, you're not saying anything beyond "well, it sucks, but since they're already trying to infringe on peoples rights we shouldn't complain when they expand what rights they want to restrict based on mere suspicion".

[Thanas]

I was going off what Flagg had himself said before. Nothing more and nothing less.

I am not much of a fan of you using information given in private venting threads on this board or on others and using it in public.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

It was, strangely enough, an honest mistake. I've already taken action on the matter personally with Flagg and the operators of that other board. I'm asking Dalton to delete my account and all posts after I've saved all of my fanfic threads, you don't need to worry about me anymore. My only interest at this point is in having my account completely deleted instead of merely being banned, which I hope will be granted as a favour to an old friend (and that this not go in effect for about twelve hours).

[Thanas]

That's a bit of an overreaction, but your call.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Thank you, but it's been a long time in coming. Sometimes events that nonetheless happened quite sincerely as mistakes or miscalculations still result in outcomes which were long awaited.

[Ralin]

I am not much of a fan of you using information given in private venting threads on this board or on others and using it in public.

I've really never understood why the mods on this forum treat those threads as private. Yeah they're not publically viewable, but it takes, what, a minute or so to register? I damned well wouldn't say anything in them that I meant to keep private.

[Thanas]

I've really never understood why the mods on this forum treat those threads as private. Yeah they're not publically viewable, but it takes, what, a minute or so to register? I damned well wouldn't say anything in them that I meant to keep private.

Same reason why it is still a breach of privacy to post the contents of your journal on the internet despite there being no lock on a book etc.