Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital
And it's PC attitudes like that which make the problem worse. They are immigrants. They immigrated to this country illegally. Thus, they are illegal immigrants. For convenience sake, shortened to illegals.Losonti Tokash wrote:So you're not actually concerned with solving any problems, you just want to see the bad people punished. Good for you.
PS no one is illegal. They're human beings. Attitudes like yours are why people go and destroy water caches or tear families apart.
It is the parent's responsibility to make sure that anything they do will not have a negative impact on their children. If the parent knew he was breaking the law, he should have known it'd have an impact on his daughter. In that case and the case of your uncle, since they had not committed any crimes aside from being illegal immigrants, deportation would not be necessary. Simply require them to go through the process of applying to be legal residents.Losonti Tokash wrote:Friend of mine was brought here as a child and didn't understand she wasn't here legitimately until years later, but it's totally her own fault and the country's best interest is definitely served by preventing someone who grew up here from getting a license or education because of something her parents did.
Edit: my uncle came here in the 80s and was granted amnesty. He's now a citizen and rancher, with a son in the army and another in medical school. Imagine how much better the country would be if he'd been deported or stuck as a day laborer for thirty years.
Illegal immigrant is not a race. Can you please point out the nation of Illegal Immigrantia on the map? No, it's a criminal status and simply "renaming it" doesn't make it go away or fix it.Grandmaster Jogurt wrote:"For convenience sake, shortened to illegals"
Here's a tip, it's not "convenience" that picked out that name for people like that. If you want help, though, it rhymes with "spacism".
How is the problem "made worse" by taking the "PC attitude" of treating human beings as human beings? Legitimate question here, please answer it.
The problem isn't the people, it is a huge complicated problem that includes both impoverished areas they are from (not our fault) and companies here that will exploit people who came here illegally for cheap workforce (that is our fault). I want you to go ahead and think about how shitty the home country has to be for you to smuggle your ass here and earn a couple bucks an hour doing shit labor in the heat/cold/elements that nobody in the actual country would do, and think it's an improvement over home.Borgholio wrote:I'm sorry, I don't see how we're forcing them to live outside the law. Did we force them to jump the border without papers? Are we forcing them to stay here? I agree that they're easily exploited and that's bad, but they're not slaves. They're free to leave if they wish. But they choose to stay here and work, without going through the motions of becoming a legal resident. I have a problem with that. If we force them to do anything, we must force them to obey the law of the land or they can leave, it's their choice. And if they choose to disobey the law, then I choose to call them illegals. I will not censor myself and rename the problem just because your friends and relatives are offended. I don't mean to insult, but they have no right to be offended if I call them out for (accurately) breaking the law.
Are you familiar with US immigration law? It is, if I remember correctly, retardedly hard to actually enter America as a legal immigrant, to the point where a death march through a desert seems less hassle.Borgholio wrote:The problem is made worse by losing sight of the actual problem. You can't fix anything if you have your head buried in the sand (or up your ass, take your pick). They are in this country without the proper immigration paperwork. They are illegal immigrants. Illegal immigrants are still humans. Look back at my previous posts and I specifically said I support giving them medical care and treating them humanely.
I know it was always a somewhat expensive, time consuming process but I didn't know it was actually difficult to enter. What part about it is so hard?Are you familiar with US immigration law? It is, if I remember correctly, retardedly hard to actually enter America as a legal immigrant, to the point where a death march through a desert seems less hassle.
Wow, if it takes that long then we definitely need some kind of reform. I think we could solve many problems if we made it easier to get in legally. 10 years is way too long.Losonti Tokash wrote:You can easily expect to pay thousands of dollars and months if not years before being denied, let alone allowed into the country. Which then can take an additional 12-15 years.
Illegal immigration is going to happen regardless of whether they're allowed licenses or not. So why not limit the damage?Borgholio wrote:I'm sorry, I don't see how we're forcing them to live outside the law. Did we force them to jump the border without papers? Are we forcing them to stay here? I agree that they're easily exploited and that's bad, but they're not slaves. They're free to leave if they wish. But they choose to stay here and work, without going through the motions of becoming a legal resident. I have a problem with that. If we force them to do anything, we must force them to obey the law of the land or they can leave, it's their choice.
So why don't you call those who break non-immigration laws "illegals"?And if they choose to disobey the law, then I choose to call them illegals. I will not censor myself and rename the problem just because your friends and relatives are offended. I don't mean to insult, but they have no right to be offended if I call them out for (accurately) breaking the law.
Los and Fenix have me covered in this debate.Borgholio wrote:I know it was always a somewhat expensive, time consuming process but I didn't know it was actually difficult to enter. What part about it is so hard?Are you familiar with US immigration law? It is, if I remember correctly, retardedly hard to actually enter America as a legal immigrant, to the point where a death march through a desert seems less hassle.
We may have not forced them to jump the borders without papers but the current situation in their country may have forced them. It's easy to sit there and say that while comfortable and safe in your home but it is quite another thing to say that when you consider the fact that many of these people are coming from areas with no job prospects and/or the possibility of starving to death and/or being murdered by out of control gangs/government.Borgholio wrote:I'm sorry, I don't see how we're forcing them to live outside the law. Did we force them to jump the border without papers? Are we forcing them to stay here? I agree that they're easily exploited and that's bad, but they're not slaves. They're free to leave if they wish. But they choose to stay here and work, without going through the motions of becoming a legal resident. I have a problem with that. If we force them to do anything, we must force them to obey the law of the land or they can leave, it's their choice. And if they choose to disobey the law, then I choose to call them illegals. I will not censor myself and rename the problem just because your friends and relatives are offended. I don't mean to insult, but they have no right to be offended if I call them out for (accurately) breaking the law.
Because it's the term appropriately applied to Illegal Immigrants.So why don't you call those who break non-immigration laws "illegals"?
The way you describe it, sounds more like a refugee situation than anything else.We may have not forced them to jump the borders without papers but the current situation in their country may have forced them. It's easy to sit there and say that while comfortable and safe in your home but it is quite another thing to say that when you consider the fact that many of these people are coming from areas with no job prospects and/or the possibility of starving to death and/or being murdered by out of control gangs/government.
And what exactly are we supposed to do in the mean time? Wait for the House to pass the immigration reform act that has already made its way through the Senate? Have Governor Moonbeam simply order all law enforcement officers to stop turning over undocumented folks to DHS, which he's not particularly inclined to do and would probably be unconstitutional anyway? Do you have any evidence whatever that this is going to create a separate, perhaps segregated, system of justice for undocumented immigrants? Are you aware that the State Ledge also passed the TRUST Act, which would, for the most part, end local authorities holding undocumented immigrants accused of minor crimes until DHS can take them away?Mr Bean wrote:Look what California has done might seem noble but what they are enabling is something very ugly and nasty. What this measure like many other measures before it are enabling is a new separate but equal style system. A new setup designed to produce nothing less than a permanent American underclass made up of second class citizens.
What we need is immigrant reform and these halfway steps are building the foundation of something that some what works but is horribly oppressive in the long term.
Let me throw this what if at you
What if it was possible to come to America without papers, pay taxes on your salary, drive and live here legally but at the first brush with the law you would be deported and your goods taken? Unable to vote or sue in American courts because your accusers are full blooded Americans unlike you. We've had similar systems in place to deal with previous immigration waves. Not exact but the pitfalls of the past make a handy signpost on why well meaning reforms can bite you in the ass.
It's also a term that only the crypto-racists in California politics use. I'm sure this is a complete coincidence.Borgholio wrote:Because it's the term appropriately applied to Illegal Immigrants.
People who happen to be born in proximity to the US don't have more "right" to illegally immigrate, it's just physically easier to cross the border. Someone from Mexico or Canada merely has to cross a line in the dirt (and in the case of Canada, a line that's largely unguarded and so poorly marked one can cross it without realizing it in many places). Someone in China or India has to cross an entire ocean to get to the US. The physical obstacles have a lot to do with the ethnic make up of illegal immigrants.energiewende wrote:I'm generally in favour of legal immigration, but I wish the US would decide to just open immigration to the whole world instead of only to those who randomly happened to be born next to the US and willing to break its laws. I dont see why these people have more right to come to the US than much poorer people in India and China.
It takes about infinitely many years to get a green card if you are Juan Ordinaries, unskilled farm laborer. Unskilled laborers, all of them, have to grab one of 10,000 green cards issued annually. His brother, with a higher education, Jesus, went to university, got a job offer from a company in the US, and will have to wait 6-10 years for his green card, with another 5-6 year wait if he applies for citizen ship. If his job offer can't wait 6 years minimum, he'll have to apply for a H-1B Visa, but those visas always are snatched up the day they become available because there are only about half as many as there are people who apply for them. And just applying for one is a hassle for worker and employer. If Jesus doesn't have a job offer, doesn't have an employer willing to help file all this paperwork, or if they loose patience with the government, he's SOL.Borgholio wrote:I know it was always a somewhat expensive, time consuming process but I didn't know it was actually difficult to enter. What part about it is so hard?Are you familiar with US immigration law? It is, if I remember correctly, retardedly hard to actually enter America as a legal immigrant, to the point where a death march through a desert seems less hassle.
Commander of the MFS Darwinian Selection Method (sexual)A better immigration system would be ideal despite the opposition it would face, which is ironic because Reagan, the Republican god, is better known in Greece for his amnesty to illegals than for any actual policy. I'd expect it's the same in a lot of countries.energiewende wrote:Yes. The term is "dispirate impact". An amnesty might in principle also apply to illegal Chinese and Indian immigrants, but in practice the systemic policy of kinda-allowing illegal immigration and then granting an amnesty every decade or two strongly discriminates against Chinese and Indians. The alternatives are to never grant citizenship to illegals, or to devise a more equitable system of allowing large-scale non-skilled, non-family reunification immigration.
