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Re: Unpleasant regimes?

Post by fgalkin »

Ymir wrote:Funny you should mention 'unpleasant regimes'. You see, personally, i find the US the most unpleasant of all. Kim Jong-Il might be a rather twisted and patethic figure, but at least his regime only opresses its own people. Unlike USA, who have been playing lawyer, judge and executioner for the whole world since Vietnam or so. There might be many hipocratic lesser regimes in the world, but they are nothing compared to USA.

I can't really tell the difference between dictatorship and a 'democracy' based on a choice between ebola and the plague. But at least i would have prefered the plague. You bleed less that way...


This doesen't mean that i like Saddam Hussein or Kim Jong-Il, but they represent sovereign nations that neither the US or anyone else has a right to invade. What's next? The People's Republic China? That would set the world on fire, indeed...

- Ymir, at least, be humane
I sense a flamewar in the future. :roll:

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Provocation

Post by Ymir »

Yes, if you invade the USA, you will be attacked. But it takes a lot to provoke a serious United States military response.
And exactly what did Iraq do to provoke a serious United States military respons? They happened to be in the wrong geographical spot in the wrong time, and that haven't been a valid excuse for war since the renaissance or so.

- Ymir, who can't really see a legitimate reason behind the invasion of Afghanistan either
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Re: Provocation

Post by Queeb Salaron »

Ymir wrote:- Ymir, who can't really see a legitimate reason behind the invasion of Afghanistan either
Easy. Everyone knows for a FACT that ALL Afghanis are terrorists. Duh. They all deserve to die horrible fiery deaths, and to have their carcasses left to rot in the desert without notification of their families. [/bitter sarcasm]
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Re: Unpleasant regimes?

Post by Montcalm »

Ymir wrote:This doesen't mean that i like Saddam Hussein or Kim Jong-Il, but they represent sovereign nations that neither the US or anyone else has a right to invade. What's next? The People's Republic China? That would set the world on fire, indeed...

- Ymir, at least, be humane
Are you serious Saddam does not represent Iraq if you remember how he got in charge of Iraq,murder murder and more murder and last year the biggest political joke in history having an election with one candidate himself,talk about a landslide victory,how did it happened tell me :twisted:
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Re: Provocation

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Ymir wrote:
And exactly what did Iraq do to provoke a serious United States military respons? They happened to be in the wrong geographical spot in the wrong time, and that haven't been a valid excuse for war since the renaissance or so.

- Ymir, who can't really see a legitimate reason behind the invasion of Afghanistan either
The Iraqi State violated the terms of a cease-fire. The clear and concise legal grounding for War this provides apparently seems incomprehendable to most of the world, which I suppose is why the average person is too dumb to defend themselves in court.
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Re: Provocation

Post by Queeb Salaron »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Ymir wrote:
And exactly what did Iraq do to provoke a serious United States military respons? They happened to be in the wrong geographical spot in the wrong time, and that haven't been a valid excuse for war since the renaissance or so.

- Ymir, who can't really see a legitimate reason behind the invasion of Afghanistan either
The Iraqi State violated the terms of a cease-fire. The clear and concise legal grounding for War this provides apparently seems incomprehendable to most of the world, which I suppose is why the average person is too dumb to defend themselves in court.
Funny thing is, the rest of the world thought that the US had let that one slide. Then we lose the WTC, and we suddenly remember it again. Helluva legal tactic.
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Post by Queeb Salaron »

I actually wonder why the media never played that violation of a ceace-fire as the Sword of Damocles hanging over Sadaam's head. I think that would have been a sweet and original angle to portray.
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Re: Provocation

Post by SirNitram »

Ymir wrote:
Yes, if you invade the USA, you will be attacked. But it takes a lot to provoke a serious United States military response.
And exactly what did Iraq do to provoke a serious United States military respons? They happened to be in the wrong geographical spot in the wrong time, and that haven't been a valid excuse for war since the renaissance or so.
I wish I knew where that came from. Even the rabid pro-war's don't think that's the reason. Have you been in the whacky weed?

The reasons are simple as fucking pie: Shrubbery wants to avenge Daddy, and his assistants want the oil. Of course, the reason they're able to go after him is twofold: One, the son of a bitch has been in violation of the Cease Fire(On WMD's? Questionable. Extremely so. But he has been hording weapons he wasn't supposed to have, for a start), and he's commiting atrocities on his civilians.

We'll now hear the typical 'Well, he's not the only cruel dictator' whine, but yes, I know that. I simply take what victories I can.. You are all aware politicians are liars, scumbags, and assholes, right? You take whatever you can get.
- Ymir, who can't really see a legitimate reason behind the invasion of Afghanistan either
How about because we found shitloads of Bin Laden's people there, and managed to dispose of a nasty little group that the US installed there? You want a damn good reason why both the Taliban and Saddam should be removed by the US? The US put them there! When they turned out to be assholes, they should have undone it then, but at least it's being done.

Of course, this doesn't apply to the intelligent anti-war group.. Just those that think like I've rebutted to.
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Political jokes

Post by Ymir »

Personally, i can't really tell the difference between having one candidate and having three-four with largely the same opinions. Between, i have never said that Saddam Hussein does not represent Iraq. His rulership is as common a fact as that many nations have had elections with only one candidate before Iraq. North Korea, for instance.


The Iraqi state violated the terms of a cease-fire? What terms was that? They was in the middle of the process of destroying weapons that they for some reason wasen't allowed to have, when nations* that represent a much greater threath to worldwide peace have them in uncountable numbers.

*Do you really have to guess which one of those nations are?

- Ymir, seem to miss the logic in weapon allowances
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Post by Ymir »

You want a damn good reason why both the Taliban and Saddam should be removed by the US? The US put them there! When they turned out to be assholes, they should have undone it then, but at least it's being done.
How about the asshole behind it all, then? Shouldn't it do something about itself?

- Ymir, wondering.
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Re: Political jokes

Post by SirNitram »

Ymir wrote:Personally, i can't really tell the difference between having one candidate and having three-four with largely the same opinions. Between, i have never said that Saddam Hussein does not represent Iraq. His rulership is as common a fact as that many nations have had elections with only one candidate before Iraq. North Korea, for instance.
So because it happens it should be allowed to happen? See, when people cite America as not caring what happens to others, then another American says something like this when trying to support the first, I crack the fuck up. It's okay to have a dictator because he's somewhere else, huh? :roll:
The Iraqi state violated the terms of a cease-fire? What terms was that? They was in the middle of the process of destroying weapons that they for some reason wasen't allowed to have, when nations* that represent a much greater threath to worldwide peace have them in uncountable numbers.
Hrm, the Cease Fire was 12 years ago. He had those missiles today. Do you really need me to spell this out for you, or do I just need to let you take off your shoes so you can count above ten and figure this one out? As for your petty whinge about him not being allowed them, guess what? He used those long range missiles to repeatedly hit another nation, Isreal. Why, I wonder, would we take them away? Oh yea, because he was a BAD FUCKING BOY AND SHOT AT CIVILIANS. Moron.
*Do you really have to guess which one of those nations are?

- Ymir, seem to miss the logic in weapon allowances
I'm not surprised you missed the logic. You probably miss most of the logic around here that doesn't fit your views.
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Post by SirNitram »

Ymir wrote:
You want a damn good reason why both the Taliban and Saddam should be removed by the US? The US put them there! When they turned out to be assholes, they should have undone it then, but at least it's being done.
How about the asshole behind it all, then? Shouldn't it do something about itself?

- Ymir, wondering.
Alright, find me the assholes responsible for implanting them, and we'll despose them.

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Oh wait, they have no power here anymore. I think a few are dead.
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Post by Montcalm »

Allowing creeps like Saddam acquire weapons of mass destruction is just as dumb as giving a gun to a caveman. :evil:
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Post by meNNis »

Ymir-

I'm sorry, I could be a good little debator, and rebut your stupidity, but you are too well set in your ways of being Anti-US for every single detail, and obviously don't have the intelligence to comprehend anything I would attempt to explain to you anyways. Not that those two are related in any way.

Eleas-

Die, you fucking troll. Prove your points and contribute something worthwhile. Instead of just pulling things out of your ass.

That is all.
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Post by meNNis »

Montcalm wrote:Allowing creeps like Saddam acquire weapons of mass destruction is just as dumb as giving a gun to a caveman. :evil:
<middle finger> Fuck political correctness </middle finger>

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Post by SirNitram »

meNNis wrote: Eleas-

Die, you fucking troll. Prove your points and contribute something worthwhile. Instead of just pulling things out of your ass.
Never thought I'd see the day when Eleas was called a troll. :shock: :shock: :shock:
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Post by Ymir »

He used those long range missiles to repeatedly hit another nation, Isreal. Why, I wonder, would we take them away? Oh yea, because he was a BAD FUCKING BOY AND SHOT AT CIVILIANS. Moron.
That sounds exactly like the US activities in Iraq, Jugoslavia and Afghanistan. I remember the Chinese Embassy in Belgrad being hit by a US missile, for instance. If i were Jiang Zhemin, i would have been rather angry about that.


My point is not that Saddam is some kind of good guy, he is a cruel dictator of the worst sort. I'm just saying that those attacking him right now are almost as bad as him, although in a rather different way...and a lot more dangerous in a global perspective.

- Ymir, war is not the answer anymore
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Post by Joe »

meNNis wrote:Ymir-

I'm sorry, I could be a good little debator, and rebut your stupidity, but you are too well set in your ways of being Anti-US for every single detail, and obviously don't have the intelligence to comprehend anything I would attempt to explain to you anyways. Not that those two are related in any way.

Eleas-

Die, you fucking troll. Prove your points and contribute something worthwhile. Instead of just pulling things out of your ass.

That is all.
Dude, I agree with you on this issue. But this is the worst case of style-over-substance I've seen for a while.
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Post by Queeb Salaron »

Montcalm wrote:Allowing creeps like Saddam acquire weapons of mass destruction is just as dumb as giving a gun to a caveman. :evil:
As a caveman and a card-carrying member of the NRA (no, I am not Charlton Heston OR Ted Nugent,) I resent that comment.

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I was joking. Lighten up. [/joke]
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Post by Dalton »

meNNis wrote:Eleas-

Die, you fucking troll. Prove your points and contribute something worthwhile. Instead of just pulling things out of your ass.

That is all.
Do not throw around the word "troll" every time someone deigns to have a differing opinion, toolie. Furthermore, I've been keeping track of this thread and I challenge you to prove that Eleas is pulling things out of his ass.
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Post by Enforcer Talen »

Ymir wrote:
He used those long range missiles to repeatedly hit another nation, Isreal. Why, I wonder, would we take them away? Oh yea, because he was a BAD FUCKING BOY AND SHOT AT CIVILIANS. Moron.
That sounds exactly like the US activities in Iraq, Jugoslavia and Afghanistan. I remember the Chinese Embassy in Belgrad being hit by a US missile, for instance. If i were Jiang Zhemin, i would have been rather angry about that.


My point is not that Saddam is some kind of good guy, he is a cruel dictator of the worst sort. I'm just saying that those attacking him right now are almost as bad as him, although in a rather different way...and a lot more dangerous in a global perspective.

- Ymir, war is not the answer anymore
course, we dont aim at civilians. saddam does.
and, war is often the strongest answer.
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Post by Montcalm »

Queeb Salaron wrote:
Montcalm wrote:Allowing creeps like Saddam acquire weapons of mass destruction is just as dumb as giving a gun to a caveman. :evil:
As a caveman and a card-carrying member of the NRA (no, I am not Charlton Heston OR Ted Nugent,) I resent that comment.

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...



...



I was joking. Lighten up. [/joke]
I thought Charlton Heston was busy shooting those damn dirty apes :lol: :lol:
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Re: Provocation

Post by MKSheppard »

SirNitram wrote: The reasons are simple as fucking pie: Shrubbery wants to avenge Daddy, and his assistants want the oil.
:roll:

If Bush's assistants really want the oil, then why did Coalition troops move
in quickly to sieze the southern oilfields so engineers could put out the
oil fires there?

Supply and Demand, man. If all of Iraq's oil fields go up in blazes, then the
price of OIL goes up, and Bush's friends stand to make SHEETLOADS of cash.
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Re: Political jokes

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Ymir wrote: The Iraqi state violated the terms of a cease-fire? What terms was that? They was in the middle of the process of destroying weapons that they for some reason wasen't allowed to have, when nations* that represent a much greater threath to worldwide peace have them in uncountable numbers.

*Do you really have to guess which one of those nations are?

- Ymir, seem to miss the logic in weapon allowances
Nuclear weapons are not a threat to worldwide peace necessarily - They kept the cold war Cold for fifty years because of Strategic Paralysis, for example. You could argue they're even a Good Thing in that vein. The problem is when someone irrational has them.

Strategic Paralysis is the idea that nuclear weapons are so destructive that the rational ruler of a country will, on realizing their potential, do his best to avoid their getting used on his nation. Stalin and Mao saned up nice and good when they got the bomb. We seen other examples of this in the foreign policy of other states - Two wars between India and Pakistan were probably averted because of their nuclear arsenals, for example. So once you have the bomb you're not going to use it against a nation which also has it - Not first, anyway, and not if you're rational.

That's part of why NMD is so important - It could take out an accidental launch, give people time to think (The Russians mistook a Norweigan research rocket launch for a nuclear missile in the 90s, but didn't begin launching their arsenal because they thought the ABM system* around Moscow could handle a single strike, for example) - give some leeway into the system for things like that.

The bigger problem is that someone who is irrational might start running a country with nukes. Then the system goes out the window. What if they don't care? What if they think they can get away with a launch at an ally, or at troops? What if they have some group ideology which will make their commanders obey an obvious suicide order even under circumstances where it's avoidable? All sorts of things like that. And Saddam's regime has demonstrated irrational behaviour of that sort.

This makes his efforts to gain nuclear devices very worrying. Once he already has them it is to late - strategic paralysis is in place, and if he proves himself irrational the Mid-East gets hot. Now, on to lesser WMDs - Chem and Bio and radiological weaponry. We need to clean these out of Saddam's possession because, in principle, they are part of the same arsenal. The response by the USA to that sort of thing is a nuke; they're counted as the same. I'd argue a bio-weapon is worse than a nuke, for that matter - Which could kill more people, an atomic bomb or a vial of smallpox? And he already has those weapons and the same irrational mindset that makes us worrying about him getting the Bomb.

So of course we wanted him disarmed in '91 and of course we viewed his failure to disarm as a serious thing - Which, considering it violated the terms of a cease-fire, had serious consequences.
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Anti-US?

Post by Ymir »

I'm sorry, I could be a good little debator, and rebut your stupidity, but you are too well set in your ways of being Anti-US for every single detail, and obviously don't have the intelligence to comprehend anything I would attempt to explain to you anyways. Not that those two are related in any way.
I have nothing against the US as a nation, although i do not much like it either. It only disturbes me to see how the most influental nation on earth continuosly override or ignore UN, exploit less powerful countries and plays marshal around the world. It seems like i will live in a world were one single, ruthless nation is able to do whatever it wants to others, and man, do i feel sad about that. But i guess i do believe in karma...

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