Rampage shooting in Santa Barbara by misogynist 22-yo.

[ray245]

I don't think its too far of a stretch to say someone can feel that way at 22. Vast swathes of culture in just about every medium present the idea that sex is something you must have as early and as often as possible or you're not any kind of man. Even here, virgin and permavirigin was a go-to insult for a long time.

Of course most people don't go on killing sprees because of it but still...

I wonder if society is setting 'targets' that is becoming relatively harder and harder for a lot of young males to reach. Not everyone can develop the kind of social skills to get laid at the same age range, so there shouldn't be a need to stigmatise anyone who has yet to have sex at the age of 22.

It's just plain crazy that there are actually people posting comments on youtube defending that guy's actions. How many other young males out there that feels the same with this guy?

[General Zod]

How many other young males out there that feels the same with this guy?

More than a few, apparently.

[ray245]

How many other young males out there that feels the same with this guy?

More than a few, apparently.

It's really sad. Has this become a societal issue rather than a mere one-off incident?

[Grumman]

It's really sad. Has this become a societal issue rather than a mere one-off incident?

No. The PUA response was an attempt to sell a product, a false cure for people like Elliot Rodger. It is as stupid and offensive as if they'd taken the opportunity to shill their homeopathic anti-sociopathy medicine, but it is not the cause.

[Simon_Jester]

I have to wonder if, in real life, these guys manage to set off the CreeperMeter of every woman they encounter, thus why no woman wants to touch them.

It's hard to imagine a man whose inner thoughts are this misogynistic*, and who is somehow managing to outwardly act like a normal, functional human when talking to real women. Certainly I can't imagine him keeping up the act for any real length of time when inwardly he's furious and bitter at women for not throwing themselves at him.

*For crying out loud, this guy literally thought he was God's gift to women...

How many other young males out there that feels the same with this guy?

More than a few, apparently.

It's really sad. Has this become a societal issue rather than a mere one-off incident?

Well, frustrated, misogynistic men who can't get laid to save their lives and blame women for this fact are a commonplace. They're a societal issue. I suspect (but cannot prove) that they're a major factor in why the rape rate is so damned high: because at least several percent of all men have a sense of entitlement about sex, are angry that they don't get "enough" of it, and use force or trickery to get that sex because they have zero respect for women.

Men who match that description and go on a murderous rampage, though, are relatively rare.

[Kitsune]

[Zaune]

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[TithonusSyndrome]

In addition to the websites listed in Zod's link (seriously, you should look at some of PUAhate's 19th century attraction science jargon) he apparently put his videos up on wizardchan as well. If nothing else I hope that the Feds and/or NGOs like the SPLC take it upon themselves to monitor these sites in the future, because they haven't exactly been shy about having a vocal contingent of members who cheer and fantasize about these things.

[Dartzap]

Having worked with people on the spectrum for the last few years, it is very VERY easy to see why they become so frustrated.

This is a very VERY broad descriptive of what I deal with when people are referred to the befriending/enabling service I work for:

They usually have poor social and communication skills, which is related to them having a poor understanding or inability to see the subtlety in things such as body language and speech. As a result, they become very socially isolated, ruminating on the reasons why they do no have any friends, whilst at the same time, living in a self-imposed isolation, destroying whatever ability to interact they had beforehand, often they become so over involved in a particular subject or item, that they refuse to talk about anything else, as nothing else is important.

Many cannot deal with metaphor or sarcasm. They become frustrated at not being able to understand why someone is responding to them in certain ways as a result, which leads to them being angry with both themselves and others. It leads to them being incredibly vulnerable to abuse from others. It's a sad, lonely cycle of desperation and depression often culminating in suicide or self-harm.

The self-destructive obsessions I have encountered have been....horrible to see.

[Zaune]

Sounds about right. Once caught myself thinking I could walk into the shopping centre with a pistol, fire a dozen shots at random and never once hit anyone who didn't do something to deserve it. And I knew a fella who knew a fella who could get me a gun to do it with for the right price, or so he claimed.

But I had the love of a good woman and a circle of real, supportive and above all sane friends to drag me back from the brink.

[Eleas]

Many cannot deal with metaphor or sarcasm. They become frustrated at not being able to understand why someone is responding to them in certain ways as a result, which leads to them being angry with both themselves and others. It leads to them being incredibly vulnerable to abuse from others. It's a sad, lonely cycle of desperation and depression often culminating in suicide or self-harm.

The self-destructive obsessions I have encountered have been....horrible to see.

I can imagine. There's however a very destructive trend building in media, and that is to try to dismiss him as a "lone nut" or crazy person, and declare his actions inexplicable. They are not.

<rant follows>
He may have been in the Aspergers spectrum, but that does not mean we can dismiss the logic he followed. He was very clear on why he did what he did: on PUA sites, in movies and by a prevailing cultural narrative, he had been shown a script on how the world should work -- if only he fulfilled the obligation of being a "nice guy", the world was supposed to reciprocate by furnishing him with one or more super-hot and subservient girls. Girls, however, did not magically materialize. They insisted on agency -- they violated the contract and withheld his reward. They did this because they were all evil and had to die. It's all there in his manifest and on his videos, yet people are clamoring to point out how he also killed men (for personal reasons, which he also elucidated), and bemoaning how feminists have to make this political.

This was not a lone crackpot with a homegrown theory, he did no more invent the ideas than Breivik made up his philosophy from nothing. Like Fritzl, this was someone who internalized the ideas of countless other misogynists, but had less restraint and/or fear of the consequences. In his eyes and by his words, women deserved to be breeding stock and all feminists and "sluts" were to be exterminated in camps.

Someone mentioned a war on women. Well, this is what it looks like.
</rant>

[Zaune]

... if only he fulfilled the obligation of being a "nice guy", the world was supposed to reciprocate by furnishing him with one or more super-hot and subservient girls. Girls, however, did not magically materialize.

There's the root of the problem. Being a "nice guy", however you define it, isn't some sort of persona you construct. It's not a sequence of optimal dialogue choices with a particular NPC. It's about understanding what makes other people uncomfortable and more importantly why those things make them uncomfortable.

Some people might claim that neurotypical people understand this stuff instinctively, but I doubt that. I don't think anyone's born understanding how the human mind works; autistic people just have a harder time learning some of it. But it is possible. You just have to be willing to learn, and have positive examples to learn from.

[Eleas]

More or less, yeah, and that's why it incenses me when people talk about this guy as if he's a one-in-a-million freak accident. Now they're trying to shift the blame onto Aspergers or, in the case of Fox News, those damn gays.

[General Zod]

Fox News is classy as ever. http://www.salon.com/2014/05/25/fox_new ... _massacre/

These written and video testimonies will most likely be combed by law enforcement officials while investigating this act of violence, but they are also becoming fodder for speculation by the media and “experts.” One of those “experts” is Dr. Robi Ludwig, who appeared on “Justice with Judge Jeanine.”

There Ludwig, without having treated the suspect, espoused her own theory.

“When I was first listening to him, I was like, ‘Oh, he’s angry with women for rejecting him,’” Ludwig said. “And then I started to have a different idea: Is this somebody who is trying to fight against his homosexual impulses?’”

“Was he angry with women because they were taking away men from him?” she said expanding on her speculation. “But this is a kid who couldn’t connect, and felt enraged, and wanted to obliterate anyone that made him feel like a nothing.”

She also said, while acknowledging that she didn’t know and didn’t diagnose him, that he may have been at the early stages of schizophrenia.

When the host, Jeanine stated that he killed both men and women, Ludwig also added that he could have been “angry at the men for not choosing him.”

[Tanasinn]

If I had to make a useless stab in the dark based on reading his espoused views, Narcissistic Personality Disorder seems pretty plausible.

It's a headache to once again watch the media circus use this incident to hawk shit on commercials while pushing various inane sociopolitical agendas vis a vis his motives and actions.

[Vympel]

Given he was quite normal looking and relatively privileged - I can only assume (judging from the awkward and cartoon supervillain shit he was saying in the videos) that his personality was the problem re: social interaction generally. The press has started to talk to people who knew him and he was described by one as a "whiner" who never stopped complaining. Sure, its only one person, but its not inconsistent with his videos I guess.

[Simon_Jester]

I can imagine. There's however a very destructive trend building in media, and that is to try to dismiss him as a "lone nut" or crazy person, and declare his actions inexplicable. They are not.

The problem is that he is definitely 'lone' (if he wasn't he wouldn't do this). He's a 'nut' in the sense that he is mentally disturbed (if he wasn't he wouldn't do this).

His actions are explicable, they make sense, in terms of pathology. You can understand how he came to be insane enough to do this, and the mechanism through which it occurred.

<rant follows>
He may have been in the Aspergers spectrum, but that does not mean we can dismiss the logic he followed. He was very clear on why he did what he did: on PUA sites, in movies and by a prevailing cultural narrative, he had been shown a script on how the world should work -- if only he fulfilled the obligation of being a "nice guy", the world was supposed to reciprocate by furnishing him with one or more super-hot and subservient girls. Girls, however, did not magically materialize. They insisted on agency -- they violated the contract and withheld his reward. They did this because they were all evil and had to die. It's all there in his manifest and on his videos, yet people are clamoring to point out how he also killed men (for personal reasons, which he also elucidated), and bemoaning how feminists have to make this political.

This was not a lone crackpot with a homegrown theory... Like Fritzl, this was someone who internalized the ideas of countless other misogynists, but had less restraint and/or fear of the consequences. In his eyes and by his words, women deserved to be breeding stock and all feminists and "sluts" were to be exterminated in camps.

Someone mentioned a war on women. Well, this is what it looks like.
</rant>

I fully agree. The problem is that he's a lone nut in that he acted alone, but that he's one of many similar nuts that all grow from the same tree. So he's not a member of an organized group of violent anti-woman terrorists, but he's one of hundreds of thousands if not millions of people who might do exactly what he did, if their mental block against committing mass violence snaps hard enough.

So yeah, it's a societal issue that this could happen, and could start happening far more often, and is already happening to individual women who are often raped or beaten or killed by men who are only slightly less insane than this guy

... if only he fulfilled the obligation of being a "nice guy", the world was supposed to reciprocate by furnishing him with one or more super-hot and subservient girls. Girls, however, did not magically materialize.

There's the root of the problem. Being a "nice guy", however you define it, isn't some sort of persona you construct. It's not a sequence of optimal dialogue choices with a particular NPC. It's about understanding what makes other people uncomfortable and more importantly why those things make them uncomfortable.

Some people might claim that neurotypical people understand this stuff instinctively, but I doubt that. I don't think anyone's born understanding how the human mind works; autistic people just have a harder time learning some of it. But it is possible. You just have to be willing to learn, and have positive examples to learn from.

Agreed. The key issue here is the males who think of women as NPCs (that's a very good analogy, by the way). Because outside of very formal or very cursory interactions, you can't treat any human like an NPC if you want to get along with them.

NPCs don't care if you hem and haw and leave them waiting for three minutes while you come up with the appropriate response. They usually don't mind or even notice if you repeat yourself, ignore selected bits of their dialogue to concentrate on the 'important' bits. They stay where they belong and don't move around looking for you- or if they do move around, they don't mind if you follow them everywhere. If they start to associate with you they will usually follow orders unflinchingly, and tell you immediately if they have a problem with your actions. If they ask for a favor it's probably part of some complicated thing that you do for them once and they'll remember forever.

I've lost count of the number of ways, in the above paragraph, that NPCs deviate from the way normal humans behave. And of the number of ways that you could screw up a relationship by treating your significant other like an NPC.

More or less, yeah, and that's why it incenses me when people talk about this guy as if he's a one-in-a-million freak accident. Now they're trying to shift the blame onto Aspergers or, in the case of Fox News, those damn gays.

How the FUCK do you go from "I'm God's gift to women, why can't I find an attractive woman?" to "I am secretly seeking men..."

That really is kind of sad and disturbing that someone would say this, with a straight face, and actually expect a meaningful chunk of their audience to buy it.

[Zaune]

Agreed. The key issue here is the males who think of women as NPCs (that's a very good analogy, by the way). Because outside of very formal or very cursory interactions, you can't treat any human like an NPC if you want to get along with them.

Oh, I doubt this guy's issues with social interaction were limited to the half of humanity he wanted to get his leg over. He probably set of most men's CreeperMeters, as Broomstick put it earlier in the thread, with the end result that he probably never got to interact with anyone who wasn't every bit as fucked up in the head as he was.

Maybe the world needs some sort of Befriend That Creepy Guy campaign.

[Broomstick]

I have to wonder if, in real life, these guys manage to set off the CreeperMeter of every woman they encounter, thus why no woman wants to touch them.

It's hard to imagine a man whose inner thoughts are this misogynistic*, and who is somehow managing to outwardly act like a normal, functional human when talking to real women. Certainly I can't imagine him keeping up the act for any real length of time when inwardly he's furious and bitter at women for not throwing themselves at him.

It's unlikely but it is possible. Let me introduce you to Ted Bundy.

[Kitsune]

Somebody posted this on one of the other forums I am on
Thought it was Poe at first but does not seem to be
http://thatincelblogger.wordpress.com/2 ... /#comments

[FSTargetDrone]

Somebody posted this on one of the other forums I am on
Thought it was Poe at first but does not seem to be
http://thatincelblogger.wordpress.com/2 ... /#comments

The kid was scum, and so were those he killed. Spoiled, stupid brats. I have no pity for, as one commentator said “blonde sorority sisters in Isla Vista”. These girls were bad, immoral trash. And so was he.

Damn my eyes for even going there, for as reading down as far as I did until I got to that. MRAs, "wizards," "incels," fuck all these people and all of this shit and I wish I could just erase this garbage from my mind. The more I read up on this story the worse shit I come across.

[Broomstick]

It's "wah-wah-wah I can't figure out how to get laid so women should be chattel so I can force my will on them and get the sex I want from the sex dispensing machines women."

Tip for those guys: in evolutionary terms the "fittest" are those who leave the most descendants, and that's not you.

[Terralthra]

Simon, Zaune, I love your idea of MRAs/PUAs treating women like NPCs. If I develop and repeat this idea, how would you like me to attribute you both for its inception and initial development?

[His Divine Shadow]

I actually kind of pity the guy, to be honest. How totally empty, bereft of meaning or purpose and generally shit does your life have to be that you still determine your entire worth as a human being by what base you've got to and how often ten years after puberty?

I wonder if this kind of cultural standard is a recent phenomenon? It's crazy that a guy would feel the need to feel this way at the age of 22. At the age of 22 you are still relatively young and you are likely not to be financially independent. There's more stuff to be worried about, and more stuff to feel your worth about than whether you are a virgin or not.

Unfortunately, Aspergers can seriously impair the logical or procedural faculties that would have someone else thinking it though and coming to the same conclusion as you.

I've never heard that about Aspergers, I've seen various experts on TV and newspapers stating the opposite through the years. That people with aspergers aren't illogical or irrational or dangerous, just less socially adept, and that this is the kind of stigmatizing view we should be vary of.

[Ralin]

Somebody posted this on one of the other forums I am on
Thought it was Poe at first but does not seem to be
http://thatincelblogger.wordpress.com/2 ... /#comments

Isn't he that guy who said his mother should be charged with attempted murder for refusing to have sex with him?