Obama Officially Worst Pres since WWII... Wait WTF??

[Eternal_Freedom]

And since the thread is talking about Presidents since WWII, I think it's safe to not count Andrew in there.

[Shinn Langley Soryu]

Regardless, I still find issue with Lyndon Johnson being considered a "bad" President, as if the Vietnam War somehow trumps the Civil Rights Act and the Great Society.

[Borgholio]

Regardless, I still find issue with Lyndon Johnson being considered a "bad" President, as if the Vietnam War somehow trumps the Civil Rights Act and the Great Society.

Well tens of thousands of Americans and possibly ten times as many more Vietnamese civilians died as a result of that conflict, which he escalated. Many presidents of that era signed civil rights legislation so it's not like he was the first or the last. If he hadn't signed those particular bills, a later president likely would have...so it's hardly as if the Civil Rights movement would have been unable to continue without him.

In all fairness to your position, I am not dead-set on considering him a bad president...especially compared to Nixon who was simply a criminal. I just think he left a mark on the world similar to what George Bush Jr did when he started the war in Iraq...not a good one.

[Broomstick]

It's also possible for a president to do both good and bad things in his term(s). Nixon opened relations with China and the Vietnam war ended under his administration. The SALT treaty was the first thawing of the Cold War. He was an advocate of universal healthcare and maybe if he hadn't been forced out of office we would have had that in the mid-70's instead of our current fucked-up systems. Of course, on the downside there was that business of bombing Cambodia and Watergate.

In other words, presidents are both human and limited in their power (the latter probably a good thing). They don't always make the right decision nor do they always get what they want.

[Simon_Jester]

The Nixon pardon was the most controversial thing he ever did. I don't know if it really was the best thing to do, but I do understand his reasoning for doing it and that there was a certain logic at work.

His logic was, "Get over it. Something bad happened, he's pardoned, let's just learn our lesson and move on. Nothing good will come from dwelling on it."

The only other option would have been to prosecute Nixon and I honestly don't know if any real good would have come from that other than the satisfaction of punishing him.

Part of the problem is that, as a result of this, there was never openness, in the 'glasnost' sense of the word, about the process by which the executive branch evolved into its modern form. After a few years for the sheer sense of public outrage to die down, the same kind of people were able to slide back into office doing more or less the same old things... at most, they were more careful about not hiring people to commit 'dirty' felonies like breaking and entering.

[Raw Shark]

I strongly suspect that 100 years from now, every American who attended school will know that Barack Obama was the first black President, and... uh... shit. Democrat, right? Every Hawaiian kid will know that he was from there, and history scholars will go on about the era of obstructionist politics a bit more, and maybe allow that the previous, generally more-well-known guy handed him a giant shit sandwich, but really nothing else has happened on his watch that people will remember outside of living memory.

[Broomstick]

- gay rights/same sex marriage
- diminishing of the war on drugs (Colorado legalizes pot)
- Affordable Care Act
- end of Iraq war, drawdown in Afghanistan.
- President during the Great Recession

Just throwing that out as possible other things he will be remembered for.

[Raw Shark]

- gay rights/same sex marriage

IMHO Obama flip-flopped on this when he realized it was inevitable. Happened on his watch, yes, but 100 years from now somebody else will have claimed that crown when it became universal.

- diminishing of the war on drugs (Colorado legalizes pot)

See #1, only without the flip-flop (Obama's position has always seemed to be, "Y'know I smoked kind of a lot of that stuff in college and it's really not that bad, certainly not as bad as alcohol, but I don't care and I'm not throwing any political capital behind it except a minimal 'Okay' with a 'Don't forget the children' plea for chrome if it's happening anyway, either.") Who was president when alcohol was legalized again? I sure don't know, without looking it up.

- Affordable Care Act

Same situation. Some people might remember this as the first step for a while, but I seriously doubt it'll be the last or the most significant.

- end of Iraq war, drawdown in Afghanistan.

Started by someone else; still going to be a shitshow when he's gone.

- President during the Great Recession

See above acknowledgement of shit sandwich. Don't get me wrong: I still more-or-less like the guy despite finding him massively flawed and disappointing in a couple of specific ways, and he ate as much as he could, but in the long run I think this will probably be one of the more forgettable presidencies except as a civil rights footnote that grade schools will trumpet every February unless something big goes down in the next year and a half.

[Simon_Jester]

- gay rights/same sex marriage

IMHO Obama flip-flopped on this when he realized it was inevitable. Happened on his watch, yes, but 100 years from now somebody else will have claimed that crown when it became universal.

Maybe, maybe not. History is unpredictable sometimes, and the public often forgets that someone was 'flip-flopping' on an issue if they come out looking dedicated. In this, hindsight is seldom 20/20.

I mean, think about how in hindsight Galileo gets credit for heliocentrism when in fact his views and those of many of the people who ordered him hauled in front of the Inquisition were not that different. The idea of Galileo as the lone genius standing up for his (true) beliefs against the ignorant superstitious Church is compelling enough that we remember it even if it didn't happen that way.

- Affordable Care Act

Same situation. Some people might remember this as the first step for a while, but I seriously doubt it'll be the last or the most significant.

Here, the first step may well be seen as the most significant, even if it isn't most significant to you... because the jump from "government doesn't guarantee anyone health care" to "government is willing to intervene to ensure that people get health care somehow" is very large, and represents literally the first attempt by the US to close a gap that's been open between us and most of the developed world since World War II.

- end of Iraq war, drawdown in Afghanistan.

Started by someone else; still going to be a shitshow when he's gone.

And yet we associate Nixon with the end of Vietnam, both the climactic attempts to bomb them to the peace table and the ultimate decision to draw down our forces.

- President during the Great Recession

See above acknowledgement of shit sandwich. Don't get me wrong: I still more-or-less like the guy despite finding him massively flawed and disappointing in a couple of specific ways, and he ate as much as he could, but in the long run I think this will probably be one of the more forgettable presidencies except as a civil rights footnote that grade schools will trumpet every February unless something big goes down in the next year and a half.

This is actually possible- but on the other hand that is itself a "how history remembers him," just as history remembers Jimmy Carter for being... kind of ineffectual at dealing with the economic slump of the late '70s and with foreign policy crises like the Iran hostage situation.

[Eternal_Freedom]

See, that remark about how in 100 years Obama will be remembered as "the first black president" is kind of annoying. I mean, suppose that a white Democrat had got elected and done everything that Obama has done...would he still be as remembered as Obama will be?

Also, if you want something else to remember Obama for, how about getting that Nobel Peace Prize for not actually doing anything?

[Raw Shark]

- gay rights/same sex marriage

IMHO Obama flip-flopped on this when he realized it was inevitable. Happened on his watch, yes, but 100 years from now somebody else will have claimed that crown when it became universal.

Maybe, maybe not. History is unpredictable sometimes, and the public often forgets that someone was 'flip-flopping' on an issue if they come out looking dedicated. In this, hindsight is seldom 20/20.

I mean, think about how in hindsight Galileo gets credit for heliocentrism when in fact his views and those of many of the people who ordered him hauled in front of the Inquisition were not that different. The idea of Galileo as the lone genius standing up for his (true) beliefs against the ignorant superstitious Church is compelling enough that we remember it even if it didn't happen that way.

Sure it could happen, but Obama himself publicly stated that his stance on it had, "evolved," and never committed anything beyond that to it.

- Affordable Care Act

Same situation. Some people might remember this as the first step for a while, but I seriously doubt it'll be the last or the most significant.

Here, the first step may well be seen as the most significant, even if it isn't most significant to you... because the jump from "government doesn't guarantee anyone health care" to "government is willing to intervene to ensure that people get health care somehow" is very large, and represents literally the first attempt by the US to close a gap that's been open between us and most of the developed world since World War II.

There was an attempt during the Clinton years, it just didn't go so well. If I recall correctly, the Republicans in congress proposed a counterpoint system very similar to the well-meaning but HMO-fellating bellyflop that is the ACA at the time.

- end of Iraq war, drawdown in Afghanistan.

Started by someone else; still going to be a shitshow when he's gone.

And yet we associate Nixon with the end of Vietnam, both the climactic attempts to bomb them to the peace table and the ultimate decision to draw down our forces.

That's fair.

- President during the Great Recession

See above acknowledgement of shit sandwich. Don't get me wrong: I still more-or-less like the guy despite finding him massively flawed and disappointing in a couple of specific ways, and he ate as much as he could, but in the long run I think this will probably be one of the more forgettable presidencies except as a civil rights footnote that grade schools will trumpet every February unless something big goes down in the next year and a half.

This is actually possible- but on the other hand that is itself a "how history remembers him," just as history remembers Jimmy Carter for being... kind of ineffectual at dealing with the economic slump of the late '70s and with foreign policy crises like the Iran hostage situation.

I did originally say that I thought he'd be remembered for that stuff by those who care, not completely forgotten.

~~~~~

See, that remark about how in 100 years Obama will be remembered as "the first black president" is kind of annoying. I mean, suppose that a white Democrat had got elected and done everything that Obama has done...would he still be as remembered as Obama will be? [snip]

Probably not, honestly. The glass ceiling that Obama broke through is kind of a bigger deal over here given this long, tumultuous, kind of embarrassing period in our history with regard to black people ranging roughly 50-150 years ago that you may have heard about.

[General Zod]

See, that remark about how in 100 years Obama will be remembered as "the first black president" is kind of annoying. I mean, suppose that a white Democrat had got elected and done everything that Obama has done...would he still be as remembered as Obama will be?

On the flip side, do you think the Republicans would have been working overtime to cockblock virtually every piece of legislation if Obama had been white?

[Eternal_Freedom]

Raw Shark: Certainly I understand that, but the fact that he'll probably be remembered for being black doesn't really fit with the whole equality, there's no difference between whites and blacks thing. I mean, if we really did believe that everyone is equal, then we would only remember him for what he'd done, and not remember him "as the first black guy in the Oval Office."

Zod: Honestly? Not as much, but I bet they'd still have tried because he's in the other party.

[General Zod]

There was an attempt during the Clinton years, it just didn't go so well. If I recall correctly, the Republicans in congress proposed a counterpoint system very similar to the well-meaning but HMO-fellating bellyflop that is the ACA at the time.

Universal healthcare was originally proposed by a Republican administration.

[Raw Shark]

Raw Shark: Certainly I understand that, but the fact that he'll probably be remembered for being black doesn't really fit with the whole equality, there's no difference between whites and blacks thing. I mean, if we really did believe that everyone is equal, then we would only remember him for what he'd done, and not remember him "as the first black guy in the Oval Office."

I agree with that in principle, but we're not going to get there in one fell swoop, especially not in America, the land of Jim Crow. What Obama did in 2008 was not only a huge cultural leap out of the stone age for us, but also carries the kind of pure, feel-good message that primary school teachers seem to enjoy pushing. Little black kids in this country can now hear their parents say, "You can be anything you want to be when you grow up if you try hard enough, even the President," and not think, "Bullshit!"

[Raw Shark]

There was an attempt during the Clinton years, it just didn't go so well. If I recall correctly, the Republicans in congress proposed a counterpoint system very similar to the well-meaning but HMO-fellating bellyflop that is the ACA at the time.

Universal healthcare was originally proposed by a Republican administration.

I stand corrected. All the more reason Obama won't be remembered for it after somebody else finally slam-dunks it, though.

[Eternal_Freedom]

True. It just seems a bit off. Then again, I am probably biased since I'm not an American, or rather, I'm looking at it from the outside rather than in context.

[Broomstick]

- gay rights/same sex marriage

IMHO Obama flip-flopped on this when he realized it was inevitable. Happened on his watch, yes, but 100 years from now somebody else will have claimed that crown when it became universal.

So? Initially Lincoln didn't want to free the southern slaves, he viewed that as a violation of property rights. Yet he is credited with freeing the slaves because that's what he did. Sometimes "flip-flop" doesn't matter.

- diminishing of the war on drugs (Colorado legalizes pot)

See #1, only without the flip-flop (Obama's position has always seemed to be, "Y'know I smoked kind of a lot of that stuff in college and it's really not that bad, certainly not as bad as alcohol, but I don't care and I'm not throwing any political capital behind it except a minimal 'Okay' with a 'Don't forget the children' plea for chrome if it's happening anyway, either.") Who was president when alcohol was legalized again?

Franklin Roosevelt. Which is always a good guess for that time period given he was elected four times.

- Affordable Care Act

Same situation. Some people might remember this as the first step for a while, but I seriously doubt it'll be the last or the most significant.

Doesn't have to be the "last" or "most significant" for it to be memorable. JFK certainly didn't finish the race to the Moon but we sure do remember that speech he made about ti.

- end of Iraq war, drawdown in Afghanistan.

Started by someone else; still going to be a shitshow when he's gone.

The Vietnam war was started by someone else and didn't end until after Nixon was out of office but he is still remembered for his part in the wind-down.

Or maybe a better analogy is that Nixon is not remembered for just Watergate. Even Trekkers and Vulcans know he opened relations with China.

- President during the Great Recession

See above acknowledgement of shit sandwich.

You mean like we've forgotten FDR after he was given the shit sandwich called the Great Depression?

As a general rule, the president gets credit for and is remembered for whatever occurs while he is in office whether they are good things or bad things. Yes, there will be a certain percentage of people who won't remember anything about him - I'm sure there are people today in the US who have no clue who the president currently is but anyone not completely asleep in US history will remember more than just "Obama was first African-American PotUS".

[Raw Shark]

- gay rights/same sex marriage

IMHO Obama flip-flopped on this when he realized it was inevitable. Happened on his watch, yes, but 100 years from now somebody else will have claimed that crown when it became universal.

So? Initially Lincoln didn't want to free the southern slaves, he viewed that as a violation of property rights. Yet he is credited with freeing the slaves because that's what he did. Sometimes "flip-flop" doesn't matter.

Conceded.

- Affordable Care Act

Same situation. Some people might remember this as the first step for a while, but I seriously doubt it'll be the last or the most significant.

Doesn't have to be the "last" or "most significant" for it to be memorable. JFK certainly didn't finish the race to the Moon but we sure do remember that speech he made about ti.

A lot of Presidents have made a lot of great speeches. I think we can all agree that JFK was already very memorable for other reasons.

- end of Iraq war, drawdown in Afghanistan.

Started by someone else; still going to be a shitshow when he's gone.

The Vietnam war was started by someone else and didn't end until after Nixon was out of office but he is still remembered for his part in the wind-down.

Or maybe a better analogy is that Nixon is not remembered for just Watergate. Even Trekkers and Vulcans know he opened relations with China.

Sure, but opening relations with China was huge. If Obama does anything comparable in the next year and a half, I'll gladly revise my opinion.

- President during the Great Recession

See above acknowledgement of shit sandwich.

You mean like we've forgotten FDR after he was given the shit sandwich called the Great Depression?

Again, the shit sandwich was something I believe people who read history (not a majority here) will know about. Also, FDR's an even worse comparison than Nixon. If Obama pulls off something as big and effective as the New Deal to fix this mess while he's in office, I will of course reconsider my prediction, as well as possibly get overcome with emotion and charge past the Secret Service to high-five the man before I die from the dozens of bullet wounds, but unless we see very significant changes in Congress next year I'm not holding my breath.

As a general rule, the president gets credit for and is remembered for whatever occurs while he is in office whether they are good things or bad things.

Sure, but what if the highs and lows have been comparatively mediocre? All the wailing and gnashing of teeth and "Worst POTUS EVER!" BS about Obama sorely lacks the perspective of history.

Yes, there will be a certain percentage of people who won't remember anything about him - I'm sure there are people today in the US who have no clue who the president currently is but anyone not completely asleep in US history will remember more than just "Obama was first African-American PotUS".

Which brings us back to what I originally said regarding history scholars, ie: the kids who actually study.

[Replicant]

When history looks back and sees that Obama advanced environmental protection, brought our economy back from the brink, tried to bring about universal healthcare, got us out of Iraq and Afghanistan, and kept us out of any new wars...he will probably get much higher marks than the Bushes.

And yes I know that Obama himself isn't fully responsible for much of that stuff, but that's how people will look at it in 20 years.

ROFLMAO

Brought the economy back? The largest factor reducing the unemployment rate is the number of people no longer collecting unemployment and no longer looking for jobs and thus not being recorded in the unemployment numbers.

His improvement in environmental protection has amounted to little more than power grabs by various federal agencies by "interesting" interpretation of laws.

Got us out of Afghanistan and Iraq? Really? He did both years later than he said he would and later than the previous administrations estimates on leaving. Oh and he has left both as steaming piles of shit.

How about the bad he has done?

Whether you like him or not his flagrant disregard for the separation of powers is just setting this country up for more and more abuse by presidents that follow him.

His administration has had more unanimous decisions against it by the Supreme Court than any other.

The IRS has been used as a political weapon.

The list goes on and on. Obama is by no stretch a great or even a good president. He is out of his depth and has surrounded himself with people who have done far more harm than good.

Adios, I am leaving now while wiping the tears from my eyes from laughing so hard and before the liberal extremists (and the mentally unbalanced, both appear on this website in equal numbers) descend to "ravage" my post with their liberal supremacy.

Bye bye.

[General Zod]

Hit and run trolls are adorable.

[Borgholio]

I'm not EVEN going to reply to that. Out of my pending 5 or 6 requests for proof or statistics that I will require of him, he will find some way to weasel his way out of them all.

[Kuja]

When history looks back and sees that Obama advanced environmental protection, brought our economy back from the brink, tried to bring about universal healthcare, got us out of Iraq and Afghanistan, and kept us out of any new wars...he will probably get much higher marks than the Bushes.

And yes I know that Obama himself isn't fully responsible for much of that stuff, but that's how people will look at it in 20 years.

ROFLMAO

Brought the economy back? The largest factor reducing the unemployment rate is the number of people no longer collecting unemployment and no longer looking for jobs and thus not being recorded in the unemployment numbers.

His improvement in environmental protection has amounted to little more than power grabs by various federal agencies by "interesting" interpretation of laws.

Got us out of Afghanistan and Iraq? Really? He did both years later than he said he would and later than the previous administrations estimates on leaving. Oh and he has left both as steaming piles of shit.

How about the bad he has done?

Whether you like him or not his flagrant disregard for the separation of powers is just setting this country up for more and more abuse by presidents that follow him.

His administration has had more unanimous decisions against it by the Supreme Court than any other.

The IRS has been used as a political weapon.

The list goes on and on. Obama is by no stretch a great or even a good president. He is out of his depth and has surrounded himself with people who have done far more harm than good.

Adios, I am leaving now while wiping the tears from my eyes from laughing so hard and before the liberal extremists (and the mentally unbalanced, both appear on this website in equal numbers) descend to "ravage" my post with their liberal supremacy.

Bye bye.

gr8 b8 m8 i r8 it 8/8 congratul8

[Raw Shark]

When history looks back and sees that Obama advanced environmental protection, brought our economy back from the brink, tried to bring about universal healthcare, got us out of Iraq and Afghanistan, and kept us out of any new wars...he will probably get much higher marks than the Bushes.

And yes I know that Obama himself isn't fully responsible for much of that stuff, but that's how people will look at it in 20 years.

[snip] liberal extremists (and the mentally unbalanced, both appear on this website in equal numbers) descend to "ravage" my post with their liberal supremacy. [snip]

It's pretty funny to me that you read Borgholio's quoted text and jumped to trolling the board about liberal extremism, in a thread where most of us are actually discussing the quality of his performance in less-than-glowing terms. My reaction was more like, "Ooooh, damned with faint praise!"

[Borgholio]

Yeah I'll admit, I am a bit disappointed in how effective Obama has been, but I still hold that he did more good in office than any of the recent GOP candidates would have done. That doesn't make me a liberal extremist, that makes me a realist. Romney is a piece of shit sleazebag who should be kept as far away from public office as possible, and McCain would have started a new war for every year of his term. And don't get me started on what if McCain had a heart attack and we had to deal with President Palin. *shudder*

I say we could certainly done a hell of a lot worse than Obama. Maybe once congress actually starts functioning normally again we can get a progressive president who can actually do most of what he planned to do.