No indictment in Eric Garner chokehold death

[Elheru Aran]

It shows them choking him. Any sane person knows that chokeholds are not good unless you really want the person to get unconscious.

A properly rendered chokehold as used by law enforcement is not really supposed to choke but strangle, cut off bloodflow and not airflow. It as far as I'm aware IS to render a person unconscious and thus unable to resist their blue overlords. It is still used by law enforcement (though banned for use by the NYPD according to news reports in this thread) so the use of it is not totally hinky. I have unfortunately not watched enough MMA or martial arts movies to say whether or not a chokehold is properly applied or not, so I could not say in regards to the video, "This cop be choking the life out of that dude".

The point is that if a person applies a choke-hold to another person, they are deliberately restricting that person's ability to breathe and their consciousness. Regardless of whether it's a legitimate move or not, it still carries hazards and can result in injury or death if misused. There are other ways to restrain people for facilitating arrest that would have been far more appropriate in the context of Eric Garner.

[Thanas]

Chokeholds are not official policy and I don't see how Jounwhatever is able to defend their use. It is fucking stupid.

[Joun_Lord]

It shows them choking him. Any sane person knows that chokeholds are not good unless you really want the person to get unconscious.

A properly rendered chokehold as used by law enforcement is not really supposed to choke but strangle, cut off bloodflow and not airflow. It as far as I'm aware IS to render a person unconscious and thus unable to resist their blue overlords. It is still used by law enforcement (though banned for use by the NYPD according to news reports in this thread) so the use of it is not totally hinky. I have unfortunately not watched enough MMA or martial arts movies to say whether or not a chokehold is properly applied or not, so I could not say in regards to the video, "This cop be choking the life out of that dude".

The point is that if a person applies a choke-hold to another person, they are deliberately restricting that person's ability to breathe and their consciousness. Regardless of whether it's a legitimate move or not, it still carries hazards and can result in injury or death if misused. There are other ways to restrain people for facilitating arrest that would have been far more appropriate in the context of Eric Garner.

It does carry hazards, much like the choking game can kill people and is the reason why I'm against cops using chokeholds in general even proper ones, but for whatever reason police atleast in Murica consider it a-okay to use in restraining a suspect. I assume its usage is to allow a single officer to overpower a suspect though considering there was like 4 cops on Garner you are quite right there was probably far more appropriate ways to restrain him.

Chokeholds are not official policy and I don't see how Jounwhatever is able to defend their use. It is fucking stupid.

I don't know about official policy but it is used by law enforcement and called lateral vascular neck restraint. While their use is banned in NYC that hasn't stopped them from being used with 219 chokehold complains against NYPD officers in just a single one-year period between 2013 and 2014.

And I wasn't really defending their use so much as saying it is used by police. I made no call whether or not I agree with the practice or any attempt at justifying its use.

[cmdrjones]

It shows them choking him. Any sane person knows that chokeholds are not good unless you really want the person to get unconscious.

A properly rendered chokehold as used by law enforcement is not really supposed to choke but strangle, cut off bloodflow and not airflow. It as far as I'm aware IS to render a person unconscious and thus unable to resist their blue overlords. It is still used by law enforcement (though banned for use by the NYPD according to news reports in this thread) so the use of it is not totally hinky. I have unfortunately not watched enough MMA or martial arts movies to say whether or not a chokehold is properly applied or not, so I could not say in regards to the video, "This cop be choking the life out of that dude".

What he Seemed to be using was a messy headlock, not a blood choke, but it could have easliey turned into one if he pushed his left shoulder forward enough and pulled tight enough for the victim/perps own shoulder to become the other half of a blood choke. Generally, a headlock can be applied with the inside of the forearm pressing against the throat/windpipe and the 'blade" of the forearm digging painfully into the pressure points along and under the jawline. It's meant mainly to control the head and keep the person where you want them to go (usually down) so that they have a hard time orienting themselves or putting up much resistance, and they can be turned into a choke without too much trouble. This looks like (emphasis on LOOKS LIKE) a perfect storm of "im going home tonight-ism" from the cops (all piling on etc) and 43 years old man with little to no cardio capacity who conks out and dies when you put his system under moderate stress.
Sucks all around.

[Thanas]

I don't know about official policy but it is used by law enforcement and called lateral vascular neck restraint. While their use is banned in NYC that hasn't stopped them from being used with 219 chokehold complains against NYPD officers in just a single one-year period between 2013 and 2014.

And I wasn't really defending their use so much as saying it is used by police. I made no call whether or not I agree with the practice or any attempt at justifying its use.

It it is banned in NYC and the cops were using it it is not official policy. I don't know what the else you are blathering on about.

[Joun_Lord]

I don't know about official policy but it is used by law enforcement and called lateral vascular neck restraint. While their use is banned in NYC that hasn't stopped them from being used with 219 chokehold complains against NYPD officers in just a single one-year period between 2013 and 2014.

And I wasn't really defending their use so much as saying it is used by police. I made no call whether or not I agree with the practice or any attempt at justifying its use.

It it is banned in NYC and the cops were using it it is not official policy. I don't know what the else you are blathering on about.

I already said it was barred from official usage in the NYPD Blue but pointed out the fact it is still widely used by them there cops in that there place with the large apples and underground trains. Also while I cannot find anything about any departments having choking a bitch as a official department policy as I pointed out the practice is taught to LEOs and considered okay for usage by them.

What else I was blathering on about is you accusing me of defending the usage of chokeholds and I blathered out that nu uh, I didn't.

[Dominus Atheos]

Are you fucking kidding me?

Oh, it gets worse than that.

Chrissie Ortiz, wife of Ramsey Orta, arrested on assault charges, police say

August 06, 2014

STATEN ISLAND, N.Y. -- Chrissie Ortiz, 30, the wife of the man who videotaped police performing what appeared to be a fatal chokehold on Eric Garner, was arrested on assault charges, an NYPD spokesman said.

Ms. Ortiz was arrested at 5:30 p.m. on Tuesday in front of 206 Bay St. in a dispute with a female, the spokesman said.

She was arrested a short distance from 202 Bay St. where police attempted to take Garner, 43, of Port Richmond, into custody by using what appeared to be a banned chokehold that precipitated his death July 17.

Ms. Ortiz is accused of assaulting another woman. She was taken to the 120th Precinct and has been released on a desk appearance ticket, the spokesman said.

Ms. Ortiz faces a misdemeanor assault charge.

She is the wife of Ramsey Orta, 22, who was arrested Saturday on unrelated gun possession charges. Ms. Orta has supported her husband's claims that his most recent arrest was a set-up by police.

So the police on August 2nd arrest the guy who filmed Garner being choked to death, then on the 5th they arrest his wife. Totally not intimidation or retaliation of any sort, no siree.

http://www.silive.com/northshore/index. ... amsey.html

[Kamakazie Sith]

Are you fucking kidding me?

Oh, it gets worse than that.

Chrissie Ortiz, wife of Ramsey Orta, arrested on assault charges, police say

August 06, 2014

STATEN ISLAND, N.Y. -- Chrissie Ortiz, 30, the wife of the man who videotaped police performing what appeared to be a fatal chokehold on Eric Garner, was arrested on assault charges, an NYPD spokesman said.

Ms. Ortiz was arrested at 5:30 p.m. on Tuesday in front of 206 Bay St. in a dispute with a female, the spokesman said.

She was arrested a short distance from 202 Bay St. where police attempted to take Garner, 43, of Port Richmond, into custody by using what appeared to be a banned chokehold that precipitated his death July 17.

Ms. Ortiz is accused of assaulting another woman. She was taken to the 120th Precinct and has been released on a desk appearance ticket, the spokesman said.

Ms. Ortiz faces a misdemeanor assault charge.

She is the wife of Ramsey Orta, 22, who was arrested Saturday on unrelated gun possession charges. Ms. Orta has supported her husband's claims that his most recent arrest was a set-up by police.

So the police on August 2nd arrest the guy who filmed Garner being choked to death, then on the 5th they arrest his wife. Totally not intimidation or retaliation of any sort, no siree.

http://www.silive.com/northshore/index. ... amsey.html

So, did NYPD hire the victim to get punched by Orta?

[Kamakazie Sith]

I don't know about official policy but it is used by law enforcement and called lateral vascular neck restraint. While their use is banned in NYC that hasn't stopped them from being used with 219 chokehold complains against NYPD officers in just a single one-year period between 2013 and 2014.

And I wasn't really defending their use so much as saying it is used by police. I made no call whether or not I agree with the practice or any attempt at justifying its use.

It it is banned in NYC and the cops were using it it is not official policy. I don't know what the else you are blathering on about.

Joun_Lord is reacting to the hyperbole that this was an execution. He expands on this by pointing out that the choke hold is actually still used by law enforcement in other areas. I'll point out that these type of holds are used in MMA all the time without deadly consequences

So, I think we can agree that labeling Eric Garners death an execution is ridiculous. That was Joun_Lord point. Frankly, I have no idea what you thought he was attempting to say or how you could have misinterpreted him.

[Gaidin]

Joun_Lord is reacting to the hyperbole that this was an execution. He expands on this by pointing out that the choke hold is actually still used by law enforcement in other areas. I'll point out that these type of holds are used in MMA all the time without deadly consequences

So, I think we can agree that labeling Eric Garners death an execution is ridiculous. That was Joun_Lord point. Frankly, I have no idea what you thought he was attempting to say or how you could have misinterpreted him.

I think that MMA's relevance to this discussion is a bit of a stretch given the ref's ability to end the fight when they tap out or start shouting they can't breath. As Eric Garner ably demonstrated...

[Kamakazie Sith]

Joun_Lord is reacting to the hyperbole that this was an execution. He expands on this by pointing out that the choke hold is actually still used by law enforcement in other areas. I'll point out that these type of holds are used in MMA all the time without deadly consequences

So, I think we can agree that labeling Eric Garners death an execution is ridiculous. That was Joun_Lord point. Frankly, I have no idea what you thought he was attempting to say or how you could have misinterpreted him.

I think that MMA's relevance to this discussion is a bit of a stretch given the ref's ability to end the fight when they tap out or start shouting they can't breath. As Eric Garner ably demonstrated...

I disagree. People are calling this an execution. Some people are treating this choke hold like it is deadly force. The choke hold that was applied against Eric Garner did not rise to that level.

Can a choke hold become deadly force? Yes, but 15-17 second choke hold is not deadly force. It's not even close. I cited the MMA because they do not allow techniques that are likely to cause death. A choke hold is not likely to cause death unless it is kept on for over a minute which is why the MMA has refs.

You have a strong chance of recovery if blood flow is restored to the brain in under 3 minutes. I think one minute is a reasonable milestone to call it deadly force because that's when brain cells begin to die.

Anyway, this opinion should not be taken to mean that I think the officer did nothing wrong. He did do something wrong. I think he should have been charged with aggravated assault. I use to think manslaughter was appropriate but I've changed my position on that because the choke hold didn't kill him. Did it contribute to his death. Yes, it did. However, the medical examiner report cites "chest compression and prone positioning during physical restraint" resulted in Eric having a heart attack. The choke hold isn't mentioned. Though I haven't actually read the full report. It doesn't seem to be available.

[Lonestar]

A properly rendered chokehold as used by law enforcement is not really supposed to choke but strangle, cut off bloodflow and not airflow.

Considering how notorious the NYPD are for failing at even basic firearms proficiency I'm not at all confident that they can properly render a chokehold without strangling them.

[Vendetta]

Anyway, this opinion should not be taken to mean that I think the officer did nothing wrong. He did do something wrong. I think he should have been charged with aggravated assault. I use to think manslaughter was appropriate but I've changed my position on that because the choke hold didn't kill him. Did it contribute to his death. Yes, it did. However, the medical examiner report cites "chest compression and prone positioning during physical restraint" resulted in Eric having a heart attack. The choke hold isn't mentioned. Though I haven't actually read the full report. It doesn't seem to be available.

Thing is, that "chest compression and prone positioning", yeah, that was the result of the pigpile on top of Garner.

And it's not like they shouldn't know that, because it's in their own guidelines (and those published by the DoJ) for restraining people that they should get them off their stomach as soon as possible because being on your stomach with pressure on your back causes breathing difficulties because it prevents the diaphragm from contracting properly.

Particularly for very overweight or obese people.

It wasn't just the chokehold, it was the chokehold and the officer pinning him on his stomach by piling on his back.

A manslaughter charge would be entirely appropriate, possibly with lesser charges for other officers involved, Officer Pantaleo and the other officers who jumped on the pigpile were all contributory to Eric Garner's death, and their actions were both out of proportion to the situation and contrary to guidance they had received on how to do the thing they were doing and had a reasonably predictable negative outcome.

[Kamakazie Sith]

A properly rendered chokehold as used by law enforcement is not really supposed to choke but strangle, cut off bloodflow and not airflow.

Considering how notorious the NYPD are for failing at even basic firearms proficiency I'm not at all confident that they can properly render a chokehold without strangling them.

Well, a 12lb trigger pull will do that to most.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Thing is, that "chest compression and prone positioning", yeah, that was the result of the pigpile on top of Garner.

The video shows the one that used the choke hold holding his head to the ground. This is actually a technique that is very useful because it makes it difficult for someone to move when they can't move their head. Then there are two others using their arms to hold him down.

And it's not like they shouldn't know that, because it's in their own guidelines (and those published by the DoJ) for restraining people that they should get them off their stomach as soon as possible because being on your stomach with pressure on your back causes breathing difficulties because it prevents the diaphragm from contracting properly.

Particularly for very overweight or obese people.

True. The video cuts out so I'm not sure what happened immediately after they handcuffed him but you can see him on his side.

It wasn't just the chokehold, it was the chokehold and the officer pinning him on his stomach by piling on his back.

Nobody piled on his back. The one officer held his head down while keeping it turned to the side. Two other officers are making contact. One is holding is legs. The other is holding is hips or lower body area. Controlling the head and hips makes it next to impossible to move. Nobody was piling on him.

A manslaughter charge would be entirely appropriate, possibly with lesser charges for other officers involved, Officer Pantaleo and the other officers who jumped on the pigpile were all contributory to Eric Garner's death, and their actions were both out of proportion to the situation and contrary to guidance they had received on how to do the thing they were doing and had a reasonably predictable negative outcome.

Nobody jumped on him. You should watch the video carefully this time. Again, at the most there were only three officers that were in a position to apply their body weight onto him. The one in the rear was standing up and bending over. The one near the mid section was on his knees which were rested on concrete. The third, Pantaleo, was also on his knees and bracing Garner's head against the concrete with his head turn to the side. His hands were placed against Garner's skull.

If there was any actual piling then I would agree with you.

[Beowulf]

Considering how notorious the NYPD are for failing at even basic firearms proficiency I'm not at all confident that they can properly render a chokehold without strangling them.

Well, a 12lb trigger pull will do that to most.

Of course, if they actually had trigger discipline, maybe they wouldn't think they need it. Which goes back to basic firearms proficiency.

[Joun_Lord]

A properly rendered chokehold as used by law enforcement is not really supposed to choke but strangle, cut off bloodflow and not airflow.

Considering how notorious the NYPD are for failing at even basic firearms proficiency I'm not at all confident that they can properly render a chokehold without strangling them.

Which is why the New York Constable chokehold ban should actually be enforced. While probably many NYPD officers can do so without killing someone it needs banned for public safety and to show cops we won't put up with their bullshit. Yes its punishing a whole group of people for the actions of a small minority (how small is open for debate) much like the calls to criminalize millions of guns owners for the actions of a few nutters or create laws baring many from voting because of a pitiful few instances of voter fraud. However the police should be held to a higher standard then Joe Average because of the power they wield. Also considering they usually are far more cohesive then Joe Average and his fellows, far more able and willing to protect their own as a group, I think its safer to punish the lot of them for their actions to help let them know hiding behind the blue wall or whatever isn't cool brah.

The fact is the NYPD has something seriously wrong with it. This isn't 1 or 2 officers on the force of thousands fucking up, but dozens of officers if not hundreds mag dumping on suspects, using racial tactics that weren't cool when sheriff Joe did it, and violating a rule put into place for the protection of the public, namely protecting their lives.

That sort of shit should stop being allowed to fly. I don't know if some federal agency needs to be up their ass or what but something substantial needs to be done to limited (if not eliminate) this dangerous behavior.

Thats not to say I don't empathize with these law enforcement officers just doing their jobs, I do, but it is their responsiblity to report on and help root out these instances of fuckery and if they didn't they are just as responsible for this mess as the cunts who was choking and shooting and racisming people.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Considering how notorious the NYPD are for failing at even basic firearms proficiency I'm not at all confident that they can properly render a chokehold without strangling them.

Well, a 12lb trigger pull will do that to most.

Of course, if they actually had trigger discipline, maybe they wouldn't think they need it. Which goes back to basic firearms proficiency.

Is NYPD notorious for having poor trigger discipline?

[Beowulf]

Of course, if they actually had trigger discipline, maybe they wouldn't think they need it. Which goes back to basic firearms proficiency.

Is NYPD notorious for having poor trigger discipline?

The NYPD banned use of the Kahr K9 as a off duty gun, saying it had too many accidental discharges due to it's light (7.5lb) trigger pull. I'm failing to see anyway for an increase of trigger pull to have solved the accidental discharge problem that teaching them to keep their booger hook off the bang switch won't be better at. There's a reason why the NY trigger is pretty much only used by the NYPD: everyone else is able to use sensible trigger weights because they do manage to train their officers to not keep their damn finger on the trigger.

[Agent Fisher]

The reason NYPD went with such a heavy trigger is because when they first switched from S&W revolvers to guns like the glock, the officers who had been in forever kept having negligent discharges cause of the "light" trigger, so they over reacted and went with 12 lbs to keep their officers from shooting themselves in the foot.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Anyway, this opinion should not be taken to mean that I think the officer did nothing wrong. He did do something wrong. I think he should have been charged with aggravated assault. I use to think manslaughter was appropriate but I've changed my position on that because the choke hold didn't kill him. Did it contribute to his death. Yes, it did. However, the medical examiner report cites "chest compression and prone positioning during physical restraint" resulted in Eric having a heart attack. The choke hold isn't mentioned. Though I haven't actually read the full report. It doesn't seem to be available.

Problem: If you commit aggravated assault and the person dies... Um.... Yeah. Manslaughter at min.

Other than that though, chest compression and prone position during physical restraint after a choke hold? Yeah. The combined effect can very easily be lethal, especially if the person cannot right themselves due to unconsciousness.

Respiratory distress--> Panic response--> Blood pressure skyrockets--> plaque gets thrown, clot forms--> myocardial infarction-->death

Other etiologies can include non-penetrative thoracic trauma leading to a clot in the artery (deceleration injuries can get nasty) and thus infarction, a pre-existing plaque gets knocked loose due to impact trauma or increased blood pressure due to chest compression, clot forms. Infarction.

Police cannot necessarily avoid impact trauma when wrestling someone to the ground. But making it worse with enforced chest compression? Oh yeah. And they should know this (if not, I despair for the training police officers receive). It is dangerous to keep someone on their chest, more dangerous the bigger they are.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Problem: If you commit aggravated assault and the person dies... Um.... Yeah. Manslaughter at min.

What you say appears to make sense but the problem is the mental state for manslaughter doesn't allow it.


New York
§ 125.15 Manslaughter in the second degree.
A person is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree when:
1. He recklessly causes the death of another person; or
2. He commits upon a female an abortional act which causes her death,
unless such abortional act is justifiable pursuant to subdivision three
of section 125.05; or
3. He intentionally causes or aids another person to commit suicide.
Manslaughter in the second degree is a class C felony.

§ 125.20 Manslaughter in the first degree.
A person is guilty of manslaughter in the first degree when:
1. With intent to cause serious physical injury to another person, he
causes the death of such person or of a third person; or
2. With intent to cause the death of another person, he causes the
death of such person or of a third person under circumstances which do
not constitute murder because he acts under the influence of extreme
emotional disturbance, as defined in paragraph (a) of subdivision one of
section 125.25. The fact that homicide was committed under the influence
of extreme emotional disturbance constitutes a mitigating circumstance
reducing murder to manslaughter in the first degree and need not be
proved in any prosecution initiated under this subdivision; or
3. He commits upon a female pregnant for more than twenty-four weeks
an abortional act which causes her death, unless such abortional act is
justifiable pursuant to subdivision three of section 125.05; or
4. Being eighteen years old or more and with intent to cause physical
injury to a person less than eleven years old, the defendant recklessly
engages in conduct which creates a grave risk of serious physical injury
to such person and thereby causes the death of such person.
Manslaughter in the first degree is a class B felony.


Obviously you're likely thinking that recklessly falls under this category. A reckless mental state is defined as


Recklessly." A person acts recklessly with respect to a result or
to a circumstance described by a statute defining an offense when he is
aware of and consciously disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk
that such result will occur or that such circumstance exists.


In my opinion a 15-17 second choke hold does not pose a substantial risk of death. Neither does holding someone down when they are still able to talk though that is assuming you aren't putting undue pressure on the chest, back, or upper body.

First degree felony assault fits better and it is also a class B felony just like voluntary manslaughter.

Other than that though, chest compression and prone position during physical restraint after a choke hold? Yeah. The combined effect can very easily be lethal, especially if the person cannot right themselves due to unconsciousness.

Respiratory distress--> Panic response--> Blood pressure skyrockets--> plaque gets thrown, clot forms--> myocardial infarction-->death

Other etiologies can include non-penetrative thoracic trauma leading to a clot in the artery (deceleration injuries can get nasty) and thus infarction, a pre-existing plaque gets knocked loose due to impact trauma or increased blood pressure due to chest compression, clot forms. Infarction.

I am aware. The challenge presented is it is extremely difficult to handcuff someone in the prone position while they are on their side if you had resistance to that equation it is practically impossible without resorting to pain compliance.

Police cannot necessarily avoid impact trauma when wrestling someone to the ground. But making it worse with enforced chest compression? Oh yeah. And they should know this (if not, I despair for the training police officers receive). It is dangerous to keep someone on their chest, more dangerous the bigger they are.

I would agree with you had the officers restrained Eric Garner by sitting on his chest or back. Feel free to watch it yourself and if you see it please point it out.

[Gaidin]

In my opinion a 15-17 second choke hold does not pose a substantial risk of death. Neither does holding someone down when they are still able to talk though that is assuming you aren't putting undue pressure on the chest, back, or upper body.

Why should the time length of the choke hold matter when it's banned by policy, and the autopsy says it's part of the cause of death?

[Terralthra]

In my opinion a 15-17 second choke hold does not pose a substantial risk of death.

When the NYPD banned chokeholds by officers in 1993, it was because they were implicated in a number of desks and were already called out in a 1985 policy restricting their use as "potentially lethal". NYPD policy acknowledges that chokeholds pose a substantial risk of death. The officer in question should have been aware of that policy, and he then disregarded it. That is textbook recklessness.

[Terralthra]

....deaths. Not desks. Oops.