"Bitcoin Jesus" renounced US citizenship, now can’t get back

[K. A. Pital]

So, rich motherfucker renounces the US passport and suddenly gets same treatment from his former 'motherland' as ~90% of the world's population.

Made my day. Thank you Roger!

[andrewgpaul]

Is the USA in any way legally required to allow him in?

No.

And honestly, since I come *cue you forgot Poland jokes* from country occupying place of donut hole in this here map

As an aside, I don't get that; do you mean the Central African Republic (ie in the middle of the map, where the hole would be on a doughnut)? Or Poland? Or somewhere else that I'm not getting?

[fgalkin]

The United States is fairly unique in that it requires all citizens, regardless of where they live or where else they hold citizenship, to pay federal income taxes.

This is why I do not laugh at him. If this guy was a Brit or a Frenchman there would be nothing unique about what he wanted to do. The United States treats its expatriates exceptionally poorly in this regard, and bullshit like the ex-PATRIOT Act only exists to punish people for rejecting this treatment.

If a nation's interest in it's citizens doesn't end at it's borders, I don't see why it's national taxes should.

Because he's no longer using the nation's services, and is paying taxes in the host nation.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Lonestar]

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

-He used the services from K-12 when he wasn't paying into it at all

-And I'd bet any amount of money if he get into some trouble overseas he'd suddenly be using those services to help get him out of it.

-And obviously, having US Citizenship was a huge benefit for him just from a ease of returning to the States standpoint.

[fgalkin]

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

-He used the services from K-12 when he wasn't paying into it at all

Unless he left the US as soon as he graduated and never paid a penny in taxes, I don't see how this applies. Also, the same applies to people who move out of state. Are you now confined to the state you went to high school to? What if you lived in several states? This makes no sense

-And I'd bet any amount of money if he get into some trouble overseas he'd suddenly be using those services to help get him out of it.

Services that every single nation on earth other than the US provides for overseas citizens without charging them taxes.

-And obviously, having US Citizenship was a huge benefit for him just from a ease of returning to the States standpoint.

Well, yes, but again, that's true of any citizenship and their home country. Yet only the US charges expats taxes.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Grumman]

-He used the services from K-12 when he wasn't paying into it at all

That's a stupid argument. The government forces children to use those services (and rightly so). Even if he had entered into that arrangement freely, civilised countries do not allow children to accrue tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. And even if they did he already paid an expatriation tax that should have more than covered this investment.

[ArmorPierce]

-And obviously, having US Citizenship was a huge benefit for him just from a ease of returning to the States standpoint.

Well, yes, but again, that's true of any citizenship and their home country. Yet only the US charges expats taxes.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Most countries do charge expatriation taxes... it is charged on complete net holdings of the individual when they move away from their country. The United States is one of the only countries that don't do this and one can argue that it is beneficial in the added flexibility that it provides. This is not even mentioning the fact that the United States have far lower taxes than most other western nations for higher income individuals.

Of course people, want to have their cake and eat it too.

[K. A. Pital]

Most countries do charge expatriation taxes... it is charged on complete net holdings of the individual when they move away from their country. The United States is one of the only countries that don't do this and one can argue that it is beneficial in the added flexibility that it provides. This is not even mentioning the fact that the United States have far lower taxes than most other western nations for higher income individuals.

Of course people, want to have their cake and eat it too.

Wrong, sorry. I am not sure which countries you refer to, but none of the countries I resided in charged a 'leave tax' on my total holdings when I left. After several months you cease to be a tax resident of your former host nation and that's it. Over. You never pay any taxes there again unless you move back in and reside for the legal period necessary to become a tax resident again.

[loomer]

Not seeing a problem with a dude who renounced citizenship not being allowed back on the soil of the country of his birth. If he hadn't renounced citizenship there'd be a problem, but the right to go back whenever he pleases is something he deliberately, publicly, and vocally surrendered.

[fgalkin]

-And obviously, having US Citizenship was a huge benefit for him just from a ease of returning to the States standpoint.

Well, yes, but again, that's true of any citizenship and their home country. Yet only the US charges expats taxes.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Most countries do charge expatriation taxes... it is charged on complete net holdings of the individual when they move away from their country. The United States is one of the only countries that don't do this and one can argue that it is beneficial in the added flexibility that it provides. This is not even mentioning the fact that the United States have far lower taxes than most other western nations for higher income individuals.

Of course people, want to have their cake and eat it too.

Wrong on both counts.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[jwl]

I dislike Ver's politics, but I also think the US's taxation of citizens that don't live within US territory is a stupid idea. You don't benefit from the spending of the tax money and people can never intend to live in the US another day in their lives, or vote or do anything else, but desire to maintain that citizenship for ease of visitation or other legitimate personal reasons.

You get a tax credit for taxes paid to a foreign government. So if they tax you more than the US government would, you pay no additional tax. It's when the foreign government taxes you less that you pay the difference.

And you do benefit, even if you never return to live. You retain the ability to use US consulates and embassies, and thereby be able to use the US Government's diplomatic pressure, when applicable. You benefit from ease of visitation: you have guaranteed ability to enter the US (though, admittedly, not necessarily by flying). You've already benefited from the US educational system.

Does stuff like VAT count? I'm curious.

[AMT]

Because he's no longer using the nation's services, and is paying taxes in the host nation.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

A US Citizen living abroad only pays taxes on income over 96,000 dollars (or more, depending on exclusions for housing and such) they make per year, and any taxes paid to the country they are living in can count as additional exclusions or credits, lowering the amount owed even more.

The only time this might be a problem is when someone like this jackass moves to a country to evade paying taxes, at which point they can renounce their citizenship and all debts and obligations to it (i.e. taxes) while losing any and all protections and benefits they are entitled to as a citizen (i.e. returning to the country with no issue, consulate use, etc.)

Personally I see no problem here. If you're a citizen of a country even if living abroad you can still draw upon the services of said country. Those services aren't free. Plus you can return at any time. In return, the country only wants you to pay taxes on your income to defray these costs, and even then provides a generous exclusion cost, as well as credits for taxes paid on that income in the country where you reside.

You're not being double taxes, and believe it or not the US government isn't trying to screw those expats who try to actually make a living outside the country. Now when you're a tax evading idiot, that may change, especially when you have a criminal record...

[Sidewinder]

Social Security benefits are one thing that taxes pay for, and which American expats can enjoy (see here).

[Gaidin]

Social Security benefits are one thing that taxes pay for, and which American expats can enjoy (see here).

That's a payroll tax...granted I don't know much, but insofar as I'm aware of you can't get out of a payroll tax no matter how much you make for exactly that reason.

[AMT]

Regardless though it is a benefit you get for continuing to pay taxes even if you don't physically live in the country, which some of the detractors were asking about why should someone have to continue to do so.

[Gaidin]

I think my point is that if you want to talk about taxes that go light on people because they're busy paying foreign taxes in the countries they're living in, then the taxes that hit everybody regardless of how much they make are kind of not a part of this conversation.

[Simon_Jester]

It's worse than that; Social Security actually charges you less, proportionately speaking, if you have a large income... which is exactly the situation in which people are most likely to tax-evade and most likely to still owe the US government taxes after their own living expenses overseas.

[Broomstick]

Is the USA in any way legally required to allow him in? Despite the fact that he was born in the USA?

Is he presently a US citizen? No? Then the USA has no obligation to let him in the country.

Social Security benefits are one thing that taxes pay for, and which American expats can enjoy (see here).

That's a payroll tax...granted I don't know much, but insofar as I'm aware of you can't get out of a payroll tax no matter how much you make for exactly that reason.

There's a salary cap on social security taxes – that tax is levied only on the first $117,000 you make in a year.

There are some US citizens exempt from that particular tax (railroad workers, who have a comparable retirement system that predates the SS system, and some groups such as the Amish who in return agree to never collect on SS.)

Strictly speaking, though, it's not a payroll tax – back when I was working free-lance I didn't collect a paycheck but I still had to pay social security taxes (actually, because I was self-employed I payed double being responsible for both the employer and employee portions of the tax). It's usually paid by withholding from a paycheck, but even if you don't collect a paycheck you may well be responsible for paying the tax.

[Ralin]

you're a citizen of a country even if living abroad you can still draw upon the services of said country. Those services aren't free.

What services are these? US embassies charge for passports and other documents, if you're in financial straits their assistance boils down to serving as a glorified Western Union, if you're arrested they give you a list of lawyers and send someone to check whether you're being beaten unusually hard and I've never had to be emergency evacuated but from what I hear it costs more than a first class ticket home and they take your passport away until you pay them back.

[Patroklos]

If you happen to live in Lebanon and shit hits the fan the Marines come and get you. See Anthony Bourdain.

[fgalkin]

If you happen to live in Lebanon and shit hits the fan the Marines come and get you. See Anthony Bourdain.

All countries do that for their citizens. Only the US charges taxes for it.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[fgalkin]

Because he's no longer using the nation's services, and is paying taxes in the host nation.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

A US Citizen living abroad only pays taxes on income over 96,000 dollars (or more, depending on exclusions for housing and such) they make per year, and any taxes paid to the country they are living in can count as additional exclusions or credits, lowering the amount owed even more.

Federal taxes, yes. State taxes.....well, it depends by state. New Jersey wanted to charge me state tax based on income earned while living abroad.

Also, while the first $96,000 are excluded, you still have to file the necessary paperwork. Are you familiar of the method for converting foreign expenses and taxes paid into credits or deductions? Actually, no one is, because the system changes nearly every year. An ordinary person must either essentially become their own tax accountant, or shell out hundreds of dollars for a professional to do their taxes.

The only time this might be a problem is when someone like this jackass moves to a country to evade paying taxes, at which point they can renounce their citizenship and all debts and obligations to it (i.e. taxes) while losing any and all protections and benefits they are entitled to as a citizen (i.e. returning to the country with no issue, consulate use, etc.)

Not the only time, as I've pointed out above.

Personally I see no problem here. If you're a citizen of a country even if living abroad you can still draw upon the services of said country. Those services aren't free. Plus you can return at any time. In return, the country only wants you to pay taxes on your income to defray these costs, and even then provides a generous exclusion cost, as well as credits for taxes paid on that income in the country where you reside.

Credits are incomplete, so you still end up paying double taxes. Plus, well, every other country in the world provides the same services, without taxing its expats.

You're not being double taxes, and believe it or not the US government isn't trying to screw those expats who try to actually make a living outside the country. Now when you're a tax evading idiot, that may change, especially when you have a criminal record...

If that was so, how come it's basically impossible for an American to get a bank account unless they're rich and have a private bank, due to FATCA reporting requirements? The US government is absolutely trying to screw its expats over. We're treated with suspicion and hostility and must prove our innocence at every turn, simply for daring to live outside the Greatest Country In the World (TM).

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[K. A. Pital]

Plus, well, every other country in the world provides the same services, without taxing its expats.

And many provide better public services, too.

[Ralin]

If you happen to live in Lebanon and shit hits the fan the Marines come and get you. See Anthony Bourdain.

All countries do that for their citizens. Only the US charges taxes for it.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

I am so confident that the Marines will hoorah to my rescue if I get in trouble in China, which is a whole lot more likely.

If that was so, how come it's basically impossible for an American to get a bank account unless they're rich and have a private bank, due to FATCA reporting requirements?

So glad I still have a bank account in China

[Gaidin]

If you happen to live in Lebanon and shit hits the fan the Marines come and get you. See Anthony Bourdain.

All countries do that for their citizens. Only the US charges taxes for it.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Is that just a weird way of twisting that or do other countries just not use their military as security in their embassies and for these functions when necessary? Honest question.