Syriza wins Greece election

[Dalton]

It seriously took only 25 posts for this thread to devolve into a shitshow? Class it up, people. Knock the shit off, and Metahive, shut the fuck up if you don't have anything to contribute.

[Crown]

Well, you seemed to be showing sympathy for Stas Bush's position by implying that wishing such things on America and such is good, or at least less bad, because they're "...the metaphorical Goliath." rather than "...the metaphorical David..." and implying that I should be attacking Thanas instead of Stas Bush, or at least that's how I took it. Apologies if I was mistaken.

All I did was point out they were both advocating the same argument and their only difference was the target.

[K. A. Pital]

Wouldn't it be nice if millions of people suffered from violence and poverty for being born in nations you don't like? Wanker.

Thanas said exactly that, except he said it about a small nation with ca. 11 million people which everyone here apparently considers irrelevant.

And no one, it seems, except myself and Crown, took offense with that.

Know what? Shut the bloody fuck up. What is worse than being born a rich privileged motherfucker never knowing what poverty looks like? Being a rich motherfucker who has never suffered from poverty and simultaneosly wishing poverty upon people that happened to be born in Greece for no reason whatsoever.

I have adequately shown the folly of this nonsense.

[The Romulan Republic]

I thought of dropping this debate out of respect for what Dalton just said, but if you want to continue it I'm not going to take your attacks quietly and frankly I don't think I should be expected to.

I don't think what Thanas said is irrelevant. I only glanced at his posts, but he seems entirely too indifferent, if not gleeful, at the possibility of Greece being further devastated. But if your only defence of your beliefs and conduct is to say that someone else is worse, then you have no defence. And your admission that you condemn people based on the circumstances they were born in makes you no better than a racist, a sexist, a homophobe, or any other piece of trash who bases how they treat people on groups rather than individuals.

Edit: In short, what I want to say is that wishing suffering on anyone, much less millions of people, especially based on something they had no say in like what country they were born in, is something I find despicable. It doesn't matter if its Greeks or Americans. I'm sorry if that belief offends you but I'll stand by it.

[Metahive]

OK, OK, sorry, I apologize and am out of this.

[K. A. Pital]

Yeah, except when it comes to rich Europeans or Americans casually making a comment about some 'unimportant' nation being subjected to economic hardship (without actually following up on this: child malnourhishment, collapse of healthcare, rising mortality, et cetera et cetera), I am not going to shut up either.

I am going to reverse this and magnify it tenfold. I am going to drive the logic behind this comment to its conclusion: if a whole nation deserves to suffer massively due to 'corruption' of its leaders (not its leaders invading other nations and killing millions of people) - then the nations that do these things probably deserve it a thousandfold.

You probably don't understand that I have the same position: no citizen of any nation should answer with his life, limb or food for the misdeeds of the corrupt hacks in government and some high and mighty bastards called 'business tycoons' in the news. That is why I said if anyone is to suffer, it should be the great powers, should we stick to collective responsibility.

The other solution is to ditch collective responsibility and actually admit that the Greeks often had no say in what happened. And it is their right to resist when being cornered. As it is the right of every poor and downtrodden being on this Earth.

[The Romulan Republic]

To hell with collective responsibility.

And I'd love it if someone was able and willing to bail out Greece no strings attached, partly because I don't want fuckers like Golden Dawn to gain power. But that's probably not realistic. International politics isn't big on idealism or happy endings.

[Crown]

To hell with collective responsibility.

And I'd love it if someone was able and willing to bail out Greece no strings attached, partly because I don't want fuckers like Golden Dawn to gain power. But that's probably not realistic. International politics isn't big on idealism or happy endings.

It happened with West Germany in 1953, all it takes is for countries to stop acting like cunts for 15mins (or as you alluded to the political will) and realise the undeniable truth; Greece is bankrupt. She cannot repay her debts. Major debt restructuring needs to occur (like tying debt repayment to a maximum percentage of GDP of say 3% - just like West Germany), or some of the debt needs to be written off (also just like West Germany). And making austerity as a condition of financing needs to be removed. Or Greece will have to default. Because the alternative is to be 'propped' up continuously by the EU and be a debt black hole where the only people making money are the bankers until the end of time.

Things cannot continue the way they are; it's unsustainable.

[stormthebeaches]

Thanas said exactly that, except he said it about a small nation with ca. 11 million people which everyone here apparently considers irrelevant.

And no one, it seems, except myself and Crown, took offense with that.

Know what? Shut the bloody fuck up. What is worse than being born a rich privileged motherfucker never knowing what poverty looks like? Being a rich motherfucker who has never suffered from poverty and simultaneosly wishing poverty upon people that happened to be born in Greece for no reason whatsoever.

Aside from the fact that Thanas never said that. When he said " Just pull the plug and watch the whole corrupt nation fall into a spiral of depression" he was giving an example of something the EU could realistically do if it wanted to screw Greece over, not once did he actually endorse such a policy. And that was direct response to Crown making a crass Nazi reference.

The other solution is to ditch collective responsibility and actually admit that the Greeks often had no say in what happened. And it is their right to resist when being cornered. As it is the right of every poor and downtrodden being on this Earth.

Why about this, Greece can refuse austerity, and Germany can refuse to give Greece bail out money. How does that sound?

[Crown]

Aside from the fact that Thanas never said that. When he said " Just pull the plug and watch the whole corrupt nation fall into a spiral of depression" he was giving an example of something the EU could realistically do if it wanted to screw Greece over, not once did he actually endorse such a policy. And that was direct response to Crown making a crass Nazi reference.

I simply pointed out that in living memory Greece had been through far worse than the EU could do to it if it defaults (and still maintain a veneer of righteousness) so it should hardly feel scared to do what's in the best interest of Greece. And the only difference between what Thanas said and Stas Bush said was that Stas added 'suffering', so I guess if you want to play semantics, congrats you've made a point without distinction.

Why about this, Greece can refuse austerity, and Germany can refuse to give Greece bail out money. How does that sound?

I don't remember austerity being a condition of the Marshal Plan. Or part of Greece's debt forgiveness to Germany in 1953. But hey if Germany will only give on the condition of austerity (and it wont, that will go away first), then Greece gets no money, it defaults and the Grexit is on. Which is a better scenario for Greece then continuing austerity. Do you get that?

[mr friendly guy]

IMO at some point the Greeks would rather risk seeing their economy tank that being told over and over by Brussels what is verboten and what is not.

Yeah, no. You can't imagine what will happen to Greece if Europe decides to seriously screw them over.

But what would happen to Europe though, if the EU and Greece can't agree on anything. Let just hypothetically say the EU negotiators are feeling like being dicks and would rather accept a Greece exit. I get all these adverse consequences would happen to Greece, but not sure what about Europe?

[Crown]

IMO at some point the Greeks would rather risk seeing their economy tank that being told over and over by Brussels what is verboten and what is not.

Yeah, no. You can't imagine what will happen to Greece if Europe decides to seriously screw them over.

But what would happen to Europe though, if the EU and Greece can't agree on anything. Let just hypothetically say the EU negotiators are feeling like being dicks and would rather accept a Greece exit. I get all these adverse consequences would happen to Greece, but not sure what about Europe?

The EU has to hope that their Emergency Stability Mechanism works to stop a run on its banks, which for a Grexit it most likely would, what would be a complete disaster is if a Grexit is followed by Spain or Italy exit, at which case this is where all bets are off.

[Starglider]

D is for default. I expect Greece to use threats of a default (which would explode many of the bond holders and set off a chain reaction in credit default swaps) to extract concessions from the EU, then selectively default if their demands aren't met.

I'm sure they will, but it would be better if they just default, pre-emptively and thoroughly. None of the state or quasi-state lenders actually need their money back from Greece; they can trivially print their way back to solvency. The ECB is already doing open QE now (having done stealth QE for years), it's not as if this would be any significant change in policy. The fact that some Greek politicians lied through the late 90s to get into the euro and to get those loans is irrelevant, it has no bearing on whether the money can be repaid now (it can't) or whether the population deserves further suffering (it doesn't). If Greece has to exit the euro, so be it, spiking import prices will hurt but at least exports will be highly competitive which should create some jobs.

The sad thing is, despite all the superficial moaning and groaning Germany is actually loving this, because German exporters are always pushing for a lower euro and it hasn't been this low (vs USD) for over ten years. The PIGS are the ballast that lets the German manufacturing u-boat savage the competition, jettison them and the high euro would leave it bobbing ineffectively on the surface.

[Thanas]

Wouldn't it be nice if millions of people suffered from violence and poverty for being born in nations you don't like? Wanker.

Kinda unclear as to who you're responding to here since Thanas appeared to be perfectly fine if such a fate befell the Greeks - the metaphorical David - and Stas Bush would rather it happen to the metaphorical Goliath.

A) You are the fucking asshole who compared the EU to fucking Nazis.
B) Nobody would be fine with Greece being scuttled. I was responding to a hypothetical on what could happen if Greece decides to break treaties and the EU decides to play rough. Do I want it to happen? No.

Personally I think it would be more constructive if we all just spoke about truths; i.e. Greece is completely and utterly bankrupt. It either needs to default on its loans (triggering the Grexit doomsday scenario) or the powers that be need to face reality that austerity has resulted in a 25% reduction in the Greek economy in 4 years, an unemployment rate of 25% (50% for those in their 20s), mass emigration, an increase in homelessness, an increase people no longer being food secure, an increase in suicide rates and homes being disconnected from the electrical grid. All of which adds up to austerity not working and any hope of Greece paying back it's loans can only be achieved by some major re-structuring of its debt repayment options or outright debt right off.

No. Those are not the only options. Greek society needs a major reforms that needs to finally touch special interests. If the debt is just written off what incentive is there for further reform?

Aside from the fact that Thanas never said that. When he said " Just pull the plug and watch the whole corrupt nation fall into a spiral of depression" he was giving an example of something the EU could realistically do if it wanted to screw Greece over, not once did he actually endorse such a policy. And that was direct response to Crown making a crass Nazi reference.

I simply pointed out that in living memory Greece had been through far worse than the EU could do to it if it defaults (and still maintain a veneer of righteousness) so it should hardly feel scared to do what's in the best interest of Greece.

Oh right, because you just happened to make a nazi reference in response to a German posting.

But what would happen to Europe though, if the EU and Greece can't agree on anything. Let just hypothetically say the EU negotiators are feeling like being dicks and would rather accept a Greece exit. I get all these adverse consequences would happen to Greece, but not sure what about Europe?

Nothing. Greece is less than 2% of the European economy and a net loss. If the EU were the heartless Nazis crown thinks them to be, they would have cut ties as soon as it became public knowledge that the Greeks had lied about their economy to be accepted into the EU in the first place.

EDIT:

The sad thing is, despite all the superficial moaning and groaning Germany is actually loving this, because German exporters are always pushing for a lower euro and it hasn't been this low (vs USD) for over ten years. The PIGS are the ballast that lets the German manufacturing u-boat savage the competition, jettison them and the high euro would leave it bobbing ineffectively on the surface.

Actually wrong, German Government has been pushing for higher domestic imports (=higher currency) since the last four years to stimulate consumers and get a better trade balance.

[J]

Something to think about

[Thanas]

This chart is meaningless and has more to do with outsourcing to China than "ZOMG GERMANY IS ROBBING THE OTHERS". Link

You will find that German industrial production rose about 4% at the most.

[J]

You will find that German industrial production rose about 4% at the most.

The chart to which you've linked disagrees.




But that's not important, and neither is it the point of the graphs I posted.
I invite everyone to think about it a bit more.
It doesn't have anything to do with Germany being evil, southern European countries being oppressed, or things along those lines.

[Tribble]

Rightly or wrongly, Syriza was democratically elected by the people of Greece with a mandate to renegotiate the austerity measures. The EU basically has 3 options:

1. Ignore the election results and try to maintain the status quo.
2. Renegotiate.
3. Kick Greece out of the Eurozone.

Which one do you think is the most likely outcome?

[Thanas]

But that's not important, and neither is it the point of the graphs I posted.

Then what is your point? Make it, don't bore me.

Rightly or wrongly, Syriza was democratically elected by the people of Greece with a mandate to renegotiate the austerity measures. The EU basically has 3 options:

1. Ignore the election results and try to maintain the status quo.
2. Renegotiate.
3. Kick Greece out of the Eurozone.

Which one do you think is the most likely outcome?

You are attempting to frame the debate in a manner that is quite wrong. The EU doesn't have to do anything. The Greeks will be the ones who will have to initiate that process.

[J]

Then what is your point? Make it, don't bore me.

Try thinking outside of your little Germanic box and consider the broader picture. This isn't about Germany vs. Greece, the EU vs. Greece, the core EU countries vs. the periphery, or the other conflicts of sovereign & financial interests in which yourself & others choose to frame the discussion. The first graph is your key.

[Thanas]

Then what is your point? Make it, don't bore me.

Try thinking outside of your little Germanic box and consider the broader picture. This isn't about Germany vs. Greece, the EU vs. Greece, the core EU countries vs. the periphery, or the other conflicts of sovereign & financial interests in which yourself & others choose to frame the discussion. The first graph is your key.

I repeat myself - make your argument. I'm not playing your boring games. Either do so or I will throw this out of this thread.

[J]

How sad. You don't even try. The point is very simple. Up until fairly recently, Greece & the rest of the southern European countries had some measure of success in their economies, not much, but some. So rather than playing the blame game and forcing the discussion into us vs. them and who owes who what and how they must pay, we need to look at how we can return some measure of success & dignity to these failing countries. More of the same is obviously not working, so all the talk of debt repayments & austerity are futile. The EU, if it is to live to its ideals, must work with Greece and the rest of the less fortunate countries and help them towards success through debt forgiveness, investments, and meaningful reforms, among other things.

If the EU is unwilling to do so and persists in its current course, the view expressed by Stas Bush is correct. If a supposed union of nations refuses to help its less fortunate members and arguably contributes to their hardship, that union is exactly what he says they are.

[Thanas]

Nothing of what you said is new, so hurrah for stating the obvious, you giant waste of time.

[J]

Nothing of what you said is new, so hurrah for stating the obvious, you giant waste of time.

Really. Maybe you'd like to point out where it's been mentioned?
I sure don't remember you saying anything about it, though I know Crown, Stas Bush, and possibly Starglider have mentioned it at times.

[Edi]

Nothing of what you said is new, so hurrah for stating the obvious, you giant waste of time.

Really. Maybe you'd like to point out where it's been mentioned?
I sure don't remember you saying anything about it, though I know Crown, Stas Bush, and possibly Starglider have mentioned it at times.

Not in this thread, but it was discussed to death in all previous ones. The big problem there is that for your point to have any meaning, there must be a willingness to actually do reforms in those countries. currently there is NO indication of anything of the kind. Thus zero incentive to play along with them.

Let them demonstrate they are serious about getting their shit together, then there might be some consideration. And before anyone starts accusing me of not giving a shit, Finland is going worryingly far in the same direction because we have a number of structural problems that there has not been any willingness to address. If we get in trouble and don't fix our shit and show no willingness to do so, I don't expect anyone to help us out, so why the fuck should Greece be a special case in this respect?