Yet Another School Shooting in the United States

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Re: Yet Another School Shooting in the United States

Post by Joun_Lord »

Brother-Captain Gaius wrote:That's true enough, and it's not that I want to be dismissive of non-American perspectives in most matters. In this particular case, however, it's uniquely unhelpful. I mean, as Americans we usually hear no end of it about how ignorant we are of whatever other country's internal culture and should keep our noses out of the rest of the world's business. Which is fair. But squid pro row. I hear a lot of non-Americans interject themselves in this debate, citing how x or y country doesn't have guns and does fine, why can't you Americans figure it out? Well, there's your answer; you don't have guns like America does and are ignorant of the internal culture. What gets exported by Hollywood is not representative of how America actually functions.

Even the liberal, urbane parts of this country are, I think, sometimes pretty ignorant of the rest of this country. I'm lucky in a sense, in that my father's side of the family are all ranchers scattered around rural Colorado, and that's a very different America than urban and suburban America. Guns are not just self-defense weapons, they're also vital tools for dealing with the mountain lions and bears of America's vast wilderness that surrounds rural areas, not to mention the more mundane concern of hunting game. If you have a pet dog (nevermind livestock), and you live on a relatively isolated ranch... mountain lions occasionally get hungry, and you're going to want a gun whenever they decide your golden retriever looks like a good meal.
Americans still stick our dicks in things we don't understand so our Europeon cousins are allowed that same right or privilege dependent of government permission. They do help bring an outsiders perspective to the problem and can show why other countries and peoples do things differently.

The problem is when they think they automatically knows whats best, when they try to inject their own countries culture onto another, and speak of things they have no idea about as if it was fact and refuse to acknowledge any different. America is different, different in culture, different in size, different in laws and customs, just different. We have a different perspective and history on guns then Eurocommies which is something they don't seem to grasp. Its like when people from Euroland talk about how its strange we don't have a national public transit system because they don't understand the sheer size of America (its like our waistlines and fake titties, its pretty big) and the car culture that makes riding the bus not something alot of people like to do.

And it was the same for me growing up as it was with you, guns weren't penis compensators but tools to eat and protect oneself with. At times especially during winter when we couldn't make it out to the store it was hunt or go hungry. To walk around on our property carrying a gun was a must because of snakes, bears, mountain lions, psycho turkeys, and who knows what else (maybe insane inbred rednecks? Never ran into any but you never know). Much like with someone in a big ol city with them there trains what run underground and them fancy glass buildings with the movin' pictures on the sides who might carry a firearm for defense I never had to actually fire a gun at a threat but very easily I might have needed to, I had friends growing up who were attacked by wild animals. Worse I was ever attacked by was some turkeys though that was bad enough. Fucking psycho birds. Don't know what I did to piss them off but was walking in the woods when a whole swarm of the bastards came out me and my sister.

Apparently wild turkey attacks have got pretty common as of late even outside rural areas.
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Re: Yet Another School Shooting in the United States

Post by Tribble »

Americans still stick our dicks in things we don't understand so our Europeon cousins are allowed that same right or privilege dependent of government permission. They do help bring an outsiders perspective to the problem and can show why other countries and peoples do things differently.

The problem is when they think they automatically knows whats best, when they try to inject their own countries culture onto another, and speak of things they have no idea about as if it was fact and refuse to acknowledge any different. America is different, different in culture, different in size, different in laws and customs, just different. We have a different perspective and history on guns then Eurocommies which is something they don't seem to grasp. Its like when people from Euroland talk about how its strange we don't have a national public transit system because they don't understand the sheer size of America (its like our waistlines and fake titties, its pretty big) and the car culture that makes riding the bus not something alot of people like to do.

And it was the same for me growing up as it was with you, guns weren't penis compensators but tools to eat and protect oneself with. At times especially during winter when we couldn't make it out to the store it was hunt or go hungry. To walk around on our property carrying a gun was a must because of snakes, bears, mountain lions, psycho turkeys, and who knows what else (maybe insane inbred rednecks? Never ran into any but you never know). Much like with someone in a big ol city with them there trains what run underground and them fancy glass buildings with the movin' pictures on the sides who might carry a firearm for defense I never had to actually fire a gun at a threat but very easily I might have needed to, I had friends growing up who were attacked by wild animals. Worse I was ever attacked by was some turkeys though that was bad enough. Fucking psycho birds. Don't know what I did to piss them off but was walking in the woods when a whole swarm of the bastards came out me and my sister.

Apparently wild turkey attacks have got pretty common as of late even outside rural areas.
The OP is Canadian, as am I. I find it rather entertaining that Canadians are frequently mistaken for those damn Eurocommies (though I'm not aware of any western European country that is communist at the moment), I figured our love for hockey, maple syrup and moose were enough to set us apart. Oh well. Note that despite being from the same country we have different views on the topic of US gun-control - Jub seems to be of the opinion that banning guns will work to reduce violent crime in the US, while I don't.

Although we are not part of the USA, I think more comparisons can be made between the USA and Canada than the USA and Europe. Especially because we are on the same continent and share many (though not all) of the same customs. Why is it that gun control appears to have an effect in reducing violent crime in Canada, while it doesn't appear to do so in the US? Why is it that the USA has 3x the violent crime rate as Canada? Why is it that the crime rates are falling in both countries while the ratio of crime between the two remains relatively constant? Are the American people simply 3x more prone to violence? Or is there something more at work here? Is it something that can be managed and changed (I presume that the Americans on this board want to see the violent crime rate continue to go down)? What measures would work in the USA, as opposed to Canada?

And most importantly, why is it that wild American turkeys apparently attack people left and right, while Canadian bears, wolves, coyotes and our own wild turkey populations rarely attack anyone (though watch out for our geese!)?
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Re: Yet Another School Shooting in the United States

Post by Joun_Lord »

Tribble wrote:The OP is Canadian, as am I. I find it rather entertaining that Canadians are frequently mistaken for those damn Eurocommies (though I'm not aware of any western European country that is communist at the moment), I figured our love for hockey, maple syrup and moose were enough to set us apart. Oh well. Note that despite being from the same country we have different views on the topic of US gun-control - Jub seems to be of the opinion that banning guns will work to reduce violent crime in the US, while I don't.
Canada, Europe same difference. Really though I'm just using Eurocommie as a catch all term for non-Americans because I can write less funny stuff by saying non-American or Canadian (Canudian maybe, are nudists in Canada a big thing or is it too cold and cause too much shrinkage?). Many of you suspiciously nice snowy types are closer in sensibility to Europingas types then AmeriKHAAAANNNNNNNN!!!!s in many ways with alot of overlap between their beliefs and yours. However like Americans their is also no agreed on position. Hell same is true for Europe too just most of their pro-gun sorts are beaten down and quiet for fear of being branded a crazy or worse yet a wannabe American.
Although we are not part of the USA, I think more comparisons can be made between the USA and Canada than the USA and Europe. Especially because we are on the same continent and share many (though not all) of the same customs. Why is it that gun control appears to have an effect in reducing violent crime in Canada, while it doesn't appear to do so in the US? Why is it that the USA has 3x the violent crime rate as Canada? Why is it that the crime rates are falling in both countries while the ratio of crime between the two remains relatively constant? Are the American people simply 3x more prone to violence? Or is there something more at work here? Is it something that can be managed and changed (I presume that the Americans on this board want to see the violent crime rate continue to go down)? What measures would work in the USA, as opposed to Canada?
More comparisons can be made between you lot and me lot compared to me lot and those lot because we do have a lot in common but we also have a lot that is different. There is a lot of reason why things might work for Canada that doesn't for America in regards to gun control. You have a social safety net that doesn't suck donkey balls (or I guess moose balls), you have health care for all plus weed, your society (seems) more homogeneous, doesn't have the same history of racism, seems more economically even, isn't filled with boorish Americans save draft dodgers and their delusions of 2nd Amendment rights, and maybe the fact you are part French so surrender is in your blood. ;)

I'd dare say your violent crime rate going down didn't have anything to do with gun control considering the fact as you said violent crime went down here in America at the same time as America's hat despite no gun control. Clearly other factors might be involved.
And most importantly, why is it that wild American turkeys apparently attack people left and right, while Canadian bears, wolves, coyotes and our own wild turkey populations rarely attack anyone (though watch out for our geese!)?
Because they are !!!!!AMERICAN!!!!!! turkeys thats why! We're just glad they don't have thumbs to sign up for the NRA!

Really though a google search for "wild turkey attacks canada" shows that turkey attacks up there are fairly common and a quite a few relatively recent bear attacks happen in the Hockeyland.
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Re: Yet Another School Shooting in the United States

Post by biostem »

Canada has about 1/10th the population of the US, as well as fewer large and dense urban areas. It also doesn't suffer from the same intensely hot summers as the US does, which is also a factor in riling people up. While I certainly agree that better gun control measures should be put in place, it always irks me when people try to compare managing countries with relatively small populations vs much larger ones. You cannot simply scale up what works in a country with 20-30 million people to one with over 300 million.
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Re: Yet Another School Shooting in the United States

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From a cursory google search, Regina has the highest crime rate in Canada. They also have a population density of 3,438.4/sq mi. Chicago's is around 12,750/sq mi. Houston's density is around Regina's last I checked (about 3,500), not including the Greater Houston Area. The murder rate is half that of Chicago, but still 3 times that of Regina.

So what makes Houston so violent?

Regina is 85% white where Houston is around 50%. And Canada doesn't have a history of racism leading to poor minorities that make up 13% of the population but are 50% +of the victims of crime. The entrenched racism also makes it hard for these minorities to even trust police, which further screws them. I doubt the minorities in Canada deal with the kind of racism African-Americans and Hispanics deal with. They deal with crime and they turn to crime to make ends meet. The justice system has been content to lock as many up as possible (black incarceration rates are 5 times that of whites and they make up a fraction of the population. Hispanics don't fare much better).

But those people have to be let out sometime. Back into the same area with the same lack of opportunities that made them turn to crime in the first place. There's a reason recidivism is so high in America and guns have little to do with that.

I could also go into the prison industrial complex preferring to keep non-violent offenders over violent ones, the prison over-population leading to violent criminals being released to soon, and a whole other laundry list of problems that lead to actual crime, but whatever: gun ownership HAS to be the real problem. Everyone would just attack each other with hugs if there were no guns.
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Re: Yet Another School Shooting in the United States

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Nobody is saying gun ownership is the only problem here. Clearly, the American Gulag for minorities that we call the "prison system" is a major contributing factor to violence. But the point is simply that wide availability of firearms exacerbates an already difficult situation. Again, this is real simple: if you have a poverty stricken hellhole in your country, you've got one problem. Now throw in a stream of easily obtainable firearms flowing in from the suburbs. Now you have two problems. It's really that simple.

I mean, just look up the local news or crime stats for any of America's leading crime centers. Places like Camden New Jersey, Detroit Michigan, Oakland California, Gary Indiana, Newark New Jersey, etc. A lot of these cities actually have convenient websites that show you where the latest shooting occurred (there's an app for everything these days) so you can avoid those areas. I use this website sometimes, since I visit Newark a lot for work-related reasons. Like 95% of these crimes are drive-bys or like, an incident where the perp runs up to someone on the sidewalk, shoots them, jumps in a car and flees. Many times innocent people are wounded in random gunfire exchange. In that particular incident, some random 13 year old girl just went outside to take out the trash, and ended up getting hit by a stray bullet. Unsurprisingly, you don't find too many outspoken gun advocates in places like this. The people there are sick of guns.

The point is, without guns, these cities would still be crime-ridden shitholes, due to a failing infrastructure, corrupt local politicians, the revolving-door prison system, and little or no realistic opportunities for most poor minority individuals who aren't somehow exceptional in some way. But there wouldn't be innocent bystanders killed, there wouldn't be as many armed robberies, or as many victims in general, because stabbing somebody is way more difficult than just shooting them and fleeing the scene. Plus you wouldn't have gunfire exchange with the police.

See, it's like, the pro-gun side points out (correctly) that guns are not the root of the problem. The anti-gun side points out (also correctly) that guns exacerbate the existing problem of poverty. Then the pro-gun side says "well, until we fix our social issues, we need our guns because we need to defend ourselves from violent criminals." Then, the anti-gun side says, "but that attitude is what continues to feed the existing cycle of gun violence, since wide availability of guns in the suburbs is exactly what feeds into gun violence in the inner-cities. Inner-city criminals generally obtain illegal firearms via straw deals from unethical suburban gun owners", etc.

The point is we're currently bleeding badly (literally and metaphorically). A proper solution involves decades-spanning social and institutional reform. But in the meantime, severely limiting the availability of guns would at least be a band-aid solution that could help save lives.
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Re: Yet Another School Shooting in the United States

Post by Purple »

Joun_Lord wrote:Hell same is true for Europe too just most of their pro-gun sorts are beaten down and quiet for fear of being branded a crazy or worse yet a wannabe American.
There is some truth in this. Like where I am from if anyone expressed the desire to own a firearm for the explicit purpose of resisting oppression by the evil big government he would be considered mentally ill. Where you are from it's part of the constitution.
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Re: Yet Another School Shooting in the United States

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Purple wrote:There is some truth in this. Like where I am from if anyone expressed the desire to own a firearm for the explicit purpose of resisting oppression by the evil big government he would be considered mentally ill. Where you are from it's part of the constitution.
The same is true for here. Most people who own guns and Americans in general consider the anti-government nuts to be just that, nuts. Anyone who attempts to buy a gun for fightin' the gubmint will be turned down for purchase.

Fearing the government is one thing, its not like the government hasn't given people reason to fear them what with the massive amounts of spying, running guns to cartels, drone striking American citizens, and on a more local note the thousands killed every year by law enforcement quite a few of which weren't criminal and the police who fudged up are rarely punished. However actively wanting to fight the government, looking forward to killing cops, having "2nd Amendment solutions, watering the tree of liberty, and all the other shit Sovereign Citizens and crazies spout are considerably different. They are crazy bastards who shouldn't even own forks.

Thats probably the only thing Eurocommies and Americunts can agree on.
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Re: Yet Another School Shooting in the United States

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Executor32 wrote: No, but through their bought-and-paid-for friends in Congress, they have considerable clout in the American political machine, enough that all they have to do is say the word and they can effectively torpedo any attempt at meaningful regulation. I'm not talking about pointless bullshit like magazine size restrictions, either, but common-sense things like closing the gun show loophole. Any Tom, Dick, or Harry should not be able to walk into a gun show and purchase a firearm without at least a cursory background check, but even hint at trying to remedy that, and the NRA starts screeching like it's the end of the fucking world.
Define "loophole" for me please.

Do you think that all those FFLs who have tables are selling firearms without conducting background checks? Serious question. Because, it sounds like you haven't a clue as to how gun shows operate if you're going on about "loopholes".
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Re: Yet Another School Shooting in the United States

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Channel72 wrote:Unsurprisingly, you don't find too many outspoken gun advocates in places like this. The people there are sick of guns.
And yet, you do find outspoken advocates of the criminals themselves in places like this. A man like Michael Brown is still being treated like a martyr for being too fucking stupid to quit after his first attempt to steal a cop's gun failed.
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Re: Yet Another School Shooting in the United States

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Lonestar wrote:
Executor32 wrote: No, but through their bought-and-paid-for friends in Congress, they have considerable clout in the American political machine, enough that all they have to do is say the word and they can effectively torpedo any attempt at meaningful regulation. I'm not talking about pointless bullshit like magazine size restrictions, either, but common-sense things like closing the gun show loophole. Any Tom, Dick, or Harry should not be able to walk into a gun show and purchase a firearm without at least a cursory background check, but even hint at trying to remedy that, and the NRA starts screeching like it's the end of the fucking world.
Define "loophole" for me please.

Do you think that all those FFLs who have tables are selling firearms without conducting background checks? Serious question. Because, it sounds like you haven't a clue as to how gun shows operate if you're going on about "loopholes".
I'm not talking about FFLs. It's been a long time since I've been to a gun show, but most still have a lot of private parties selling their own personal firearms there, yes? Last I checked, they had no requirement to do any kind of background check in most states.
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Re: Yet Another School Shooting in the United States

Post by biostem »

Lonestar wrote:
Executor32 wrote: No, but through their bought-and-paid-for friends in Congress, they have considerable clout in the American political machine, enough that all they have to do is say the word and they can effectively torpedo any attempt at meaningful regulation. I'm not talking about pointless bullshit like magazine size restrictions, either, but common-sense things like closing the gun show loophole. Any Tom, Dick, or Harry should not be able to walk into a gun show and purchase a firearm without at least a cursory background check, but even hint at trying to remedy that, and the NRA starts screeching like it's the end of the fucking world.
Define "loophole" for me please.

Do you think that all those FFLs who have tables are selling firearms without conducting background checks? Serious question. Because, it sounds like you haven't a clue as to how gun shows operate if you're going on about "loopholes".

I thought the issue has more to do with how a gun store can fill out some paperwork and report that several firearms "went missing", and there's not a huge amount of problems or liability on their part - basically, they sell some firearms on the side, report them missing, then carry on like nothing happened. I'm not saying that this is a common or normal practice, but it may be widespread enough that it should be better addressed - especially if a store is a "repeat offender" in this regard.
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Re: Yet Another School Shooting in the United States

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Channel72 wrote:The point is we're currently bleeding badly (literally and metaphorically). A proper solution involves decades-spanning social and institutional reform. But in the meantime, severely limiting the availability of guns would at least be a band-aid solution that could help save lives.
What Band-aid solution? Making it harder to buy guys legally? Registration? 3-day waiting periods? How does this do anything when FFLs exist solely to sell guns to people they know can't legally own a gun and/or "lose" a bunch of stock, go "whoops," and collect insurance payouts while their guns are used to commit felonies? You really think a few more, largely unenforced, gun purchasing laws are going to stop these people?

But even taking the idea of a Band-aid solution: there is no short-term way to reduce the amount of guns in America: illegal or otherwise. You're going for the long-haul solution one way or the other. Better off making it count.
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Re: Yet Another School Shooting in the United States

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Executor32 wrote: I'm not talking about FFLs. It's been a long time since I've been to a gun show, but most still have a lot of private parties selling their own personal firearms there, yes? Last I checked, they had no requirement to do any kind of background check in most states.

So your argument is that Bubba and Ray-ray are paying the venue to set up a table to illegally sell firearms? What makes a gun show especially dangerous because someone is walking around with a sign that says "ask me about my Glock"?

If you're worried about private sales, say you're worried about private sales, don't make shit up about "gun show loopholes". Most private sales happen through venues like armslist or FB gun trading groups. Most sellers do their due diligence however(I have), and if you want to ban private sales I'd like to see something about opening NICS up to the general public. Oddly, that is never offered up whenever a proposal comes down the pike. It's almost as if the goal isn't to improve screening, but to maximize interference.
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Re: Yet Another School Shooting in the United States

Post by Executor32 »

Lonestar wrote:So your argument is that Bubba and Ray-ray are paying the venue to set up a table to illegally sell firearms? What makes a gun show especially dangerous because someone is walking around with a sign that says "ask me about my Glock"?
No, Bubba and Ray-Ray are paying the venue to set up a table to legally sell firearms. I'm arguing that those sales, in their current form, should not be legal.
If you're worried about private sales, say you're worried about private sales, don't make shit up about "gun show loopholes". Most private sales happen through venues like armslist or FB gun trading groups. Most sellers do their due diligence however(I have), and if you want to ban private sales I'd like to see something about opening NICS up to the general public. Oddly, that is never offered up whenever a proposal comes down the pike. It's almost as if the goal isn't to improve screening, but to maximize interference.
All right, I'm worried about private sales. I don't think they should be banned, though, and I apologize if I came off that way. I just believe they should be treated no differently than FFL sales under the law, which would require NICS to be available to the public as you suggest.
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Re: Yet Another School Shooting in the United States

Post by Gaidin »

Executor32 wrote:
Lonestar wrote:So your argument is that Bubba and Ray-ray are paying the venue to set up a table to illegally sell firearms? What makes a gun show especially dangerous because someone is walking around with a sign that says "ask me about my Glock"?
No, Bubba and Ray-Ray are paying the venue to set up a table to legally sell firearms. I'm arguing that those sales, in their current form, should not be legal.
If an FFL is being used as a table to legally sell firearms he has to do his due diligence and run a background check. At least, back when I've seen it done. Are you saying this is a bad thing? Or was I witnessing extra work?
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Re: Yet Another School Shooting in the United States

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TheFeniX wrote:What Band-aid solution? Making it harder to buy guys legally? Registration? 3-day waiting periods? How does this do anything when FFLs exist solely to sell guns to people they know can't legally own a gun and/or "lose" a bunch of stock, go "whoops," and collect insurance payouts while their guns are used to commit felonies? You really think a few more, largely unenforced, gun purchasing laws are going to stop these people?
The number of FFLs that exist solely to sell guns to people they know can't legally own one is vanishingly small. The ATF does check on FFLs fairly often, and will hose you if there's too much off. I don't know specifics of how far off your books can be, but this reason is part of why Red Jacket Firearms (as seen on TV) is no longer is business (over, apparently, 10 firearms being misplaced).

There are some FFLs that tend to show up more often in firearm traces. This usually isn't due to any misconduct on their part, but rather, due to the fact these FFLs tend to be large businesses, and so tend sell the most guns.
Gaidin wrote:
Executor32 wrote:No, Bubba and Ray-Ray are paying the venue to set up a table to legally sell firearms. I'm arguing that those sales, in their current form, should not be legal.
If an FFL is being used as a table to legally sell firearms he has to do his due diligence and run a background check. At least, back when I've seen it done. Are you saying this is a bad thing? Or was I witnessing extra work?
You can rent a table at a gunshow to sell stuff without being a FFL. You can sell your personal collection of firearms at a table this way. And due to NICS being FFL only, they can't run a background check themselves. They can get a FFL to do so, for prices ranging from reasonable, to atrocious. There's no statutory limit on how much could be charged. And some states have waiting periods for firearms bought from a FFL. But if you're having a FFL do the NICS check, it has to go on their books. So you "buy" it from the FFL. So now the FFL has to hold onto this firearm for another 10 days, or whatever.
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Re: Yet Another School Shooting in the United States

Post by Replicant »

Shootings are terrible. Death is terrible. Kids being killed in drive-bys when they were not the target is terrible.

So what is the solution?

There are millions of guns in the USA. Trying to collect them all in a meaningful timeframe is fruitless. If you tried the only guns you would easily find are the registered ones. So you would take away guns from law-biding citizens, and yes that would reduce some shootings. I believe the Oregon shooting was done with guns that were legally owned.

But that is a small fraction. Over any weekend in a city like Chicago, in the summer, there are going to be multiple shootings. Most if not all will be gang related, most if not all will be done with unregistered guns bought in areas where you can guy without checks, bought illegally, or straight out stolen.

Those weekend shootings far outweigh the school shootings and other nightly news "we must do something about this shootings".

So what is the solution? I don't know the answer. I just know it sickens me when children are killed because the wrong people possess a gun.
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Purple
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Re: Yet Another School Shooting in the United States

Post by Purple »

So let me get this right. You can't solve all of the problem so you should not bother solving any of it? Although that logic does explain the mess that is your tax code.
It has become clear to me in the previous days that any attempts at reconciliation and explanation with the community here has failed. I have tried my best. I really have. I pored my heart out trying. But it was all for nothing.

You win. There, I have said it.

Now there is only one thing left to do. Let us see if I can sum up the strength needed to end things once and for all.
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Joun_Lord
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Re: Yet Another School Shooting in the United States

Post by Joun_Lord »

Purple wrote:So let me get this right. You can't solve all of the problem so you should not bother solving any of it? Although that logic does explain the mess that is your tax code.
Well its the attitude pro-drug legalization people have so why not do the same with guns? I'm sure all the liberals who say we should repel all drugs laws because they don't work and only make criminals of law abiding citizens will support those efforts, surely.

Really though, I don't think he was saying "do nothing". It seems he was asking what the solution is because he don't know and complaining about the fact gang shootings (of minorities) are far more of a problem then these rare but newsworthy mass shootings (of white people) yet are mostly ignored. Possibly also complaining about the "we must do something" public outcry adopted after mass shootings that creates worthless fast "fixes" that wouldn't help stop any of these mass shootings and doesn't come up when piles of black kids in Chicago die.
Simon_Jester
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Re: Yet Another School Shooting in the United States

Post by Simon_Jester »

Purple wrote:So let me get this right. You can't solve all of the problem so you should not bother solving any of it?
No, you should tackle the parts of the problem that are soluble.

It's stupid, utterly, staggeringly stupid, to try to address a complex problem by mindlessly chasing after the one part of it you will never be able to solve.

It's even stupid to go chasing after the hard parts of a problem, when there are easier parts that could be addressed with much less expenditure of resources and political capital.

If my problem is a leaky faucet, I don't solve it by buying a new house. I solve it by hiring a plumber.
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Replicant
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Re: Yet Another School Shooting in the United States

Post by Replicant »

Purple wrote:So let me get this right. You can't solve all of the problem so you should not bother solving any of it? Although that logic does explain the mess that is your tax code.
I said that where?

Tell me what your solution is. Do you want to start by disarming the people who legally own and register their guns and then what? Puppy dogs and Rainbow fairies? Tell me what your solution is for the millions of unregistered guns in the hands of young people with no regard for life. How are you going to disarm the gangbangers who think being "disrespected" means someone should die and if someone innocent dies in the process, well too damn bad for that 6 yo who cannot even play safely on the floor of their own living room.

I want to hear it because I do not have a solution and one is needed.

Or are you just here to win snarky points because you do not have a fucking clue how to solve the problem, but you would rather look clever and superior with comments instead of admitting you do not have an answer.
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Re: Yet Another School Shooting in the United States

Post by Replicant »

Simon_Jester wrote:
Purple wrote:So let me get this right. You can't solve all of the problem so you should not bother solving any of it?
No, you should tackle the parts of the problem that are soluble.

It's stupid, utterly, staggeringly stupid, to try to address a complex problem by mindlessly chasing after the one part of it you will never be able to solve.

It's even stupid to go chasing after the hard parts of a problem, when there are easier parts that could be addressed with much less expenditure of resources and political capital.

If my problem is a leaky faucet, I don't solve it by buying a new house. I solve it by hiring a plumber.
You need the support of the public to solve the hard part and I would be willing to bet that you would do quite a bit of damage to your political capital by ignoring the BIG problem to solve the easier LITTLE problem. You might, in fact, do so much damage to your political capital that solving the BIG problem really does become the IMPOSSIBLE problem.

Still looking for solutions as opposed to snarky comments.

As of right now there have been 385 murders in the city of Chicago in 2015.

http://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/2015-chicago-murders

Still going to stick with that solving the easy problem first?
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biostem
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Re: Yet Another School Shooting in the United States

Post by biostem »

Purple wrote:So let me get this right. You can't solve all of the problem so you should not bother solving any of it? Although that logic does explain the mess that is your tax code.
It's more like: Don't try and "fix" one part of the problem, when you haven't properly planned out just how to do so, and when said ill conceived efforts may actually cause more problems down the line.

I have looked in several places, but still cannot find a concrete answer to just how much US gun violencecrime is caused by people who are the legal owners of said firearm...
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Re: Yet Another School Shooting in the United States

Post by Simon_Jester »

Replicant wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:
Purple wrote:So let me get this right. You can't solve all of the problem so you should not bother solving any of it?
No, you should tackle the parts of the problem that are soluble.

It's stupid, utterly, staggeringly stupid, to try to address a complex problem by mindlessly chasing after the one part of it you will never be able to solve.

It's even stupid to go chasing after the hard parts of a problem, when there are easier parts that could be addressed with much less expenditure of resources and political capital.

If my problem is a leaky faucet, I don't solve it by buying a new house. I solve it by hiring a plumber.
You need the support of the public to solve the hard part and I would be willing to bet that you would do quite a bit of damage to your political capital by ignoring the BIG problem to solve the easier LITTLE problem. You might, in fact, do so much damage to your political capital that solving the BIG problem really does become the IMPOSSIBLE problem.

Still looking for solutions as opposed to snarky comments.

As of right now there have been 385 murders in the city of Chicago in 2015.

http://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/2015-chicago-murders

Still going to stick with that solving the easy problem first?
I think you badly misunderstood me; what are you arguing should be done here?

My point is that we should not choose deliberately inefficient ways of trying to 'solve' a problem. We should choose avenues that use our resources efficiently and have a realistic probability of success. We should do things that are easy to implement and likely to produce good results, not things that will be hard to implement and unlikely to produce good results.

Because I'm responding to Purple, who just explicitly denied everything I just said in the above paragraph. It's a collateral effect of his tyranny-fetish.

Why is this controversial in your eyes?
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