No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

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Jub
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Jub »

Patroklos wrote:Do you think the military operates under your retarded risk rules?

As an active duty member of the most powerful one, I can attest that is not the case. Our ROE is FAR less restrictive than any police officer. If you pull what is thought to be a gun in a situation where I have already identified you as a potential threat you are going to get shot by a soldier even faster than a cop. You don't even have to have a gun, your mere presence can let me kill you given the right circumstances.

I see you still want to wallow in denial regarding the facts of this case, as shooting was indeed the last resort given they only did so because they had what they quite reasonably believed was a weapon drawn on them. The grand jury agrees. The FBI agrees.

These people did not choose to take the risk you imagine they do. The risk they take is to drive towards danger when others run away, which is exactly what they did here. Firefighters, for instance, don't have to go into a building to save anyone once they get there. All this talk from you amounting to taking the first shot is a figment of your imagination. So I ask you again, if you don't want these cowards to take the job, who will? Where is this secret pool of think right, zero risk aversion people numbering in the tens of thousands who will seamlessly slip into the role of bullet sponge. You? Surely you are up for the job.
So how do other nations get by with fewer police shootings and generally less aggressive tactics? Why are German officers trained to fire warning shots? Why do UK officers often go on patrol without a firearm at all? Are these nations just made up of steel balled men and women?

I think US officers are just flat out scared, they buy their own propaganda and fear getting gunned down.Yet when all is said and done their job is less dangerous than logging or fishing.
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Bottom line is that both of those cops shouldn't be cops. The veteran officer (the driver) displayed insanely poor tactics by driving right up to Rice. The rookie officer (the shooter) shouldn't have been there due to the reviews from his former employer.

Patroklos, FYI police training in this type of situation (man with gun pointing gun at people but not shooting) requires a different response. In this case distance = time. I'm not saying the officers should have parked a block away but they certainly shouldn't have done what they did. Pulling right up like they did is very dangerous for everyone involved. If he does intend on shooting police they will basically be soaking up a lot of rounds before they can respond. If he doesn't intend on doing anything violent but makes a mistake of judgement well we know the result. He still may have been shot even if proper tactics were used because we really don't know what his intentions were but had the officers given themselves some distance they would have had the time to take cover, communicate, etc.
Napoleon the Clown wrote: Shooting in public is more dangerous than not shooting in public. If the police are out to reduce harm to civilians, they should try to avoid gunfire happening at all. Police aren't fucking soldiers surrounded by enemy combatants. Tamir Rice wasn't aiming at anybody when the police arrived, there were just reports of that happening. So immediately charging in like they did, weapons at the ready? That's an issue. They could have been physically on top of him before he could do jack shit with a gun. Drawing and aiming takes time. More time than running six feet and tackling someone to the ground.
Based off our practical exercises this is incorrect. A police car is the most dangerous place to be as a cop when confronting a person armed with a handgun. As for that part about them exiting their car, tacking the guy before he can draw and fire I would like to know your source because I haven't seen anyone do that. Exiting a car takes time as well.
Joun_Lord wrote: Just having a gun isn't reason to be shot, atleast in Murica. Especially when the person with the firearm is in a public area that is frequented by children and possible innocent bystanders, not threatening anyone right that moment, and doesn't have the weapon drawn. That implies they are not an immediate danger. Most likely someone in a public park with a firearm and not killing people is trying to commit suicide or is possibly a child. A person with a lick of common sense would know this.
Agreed. This incident required a more stand off approach.
Frankly the whole "see a gun shoot the fucker" attitude cops have is just disgusting. Cops being such pussies that they have to kill anyone who looks vaguely armed results in a 12 year old being killed for playing with a toy, a kid in his own home being shot for having a Wii-mote, another kid is killed walking home with a plastic AK, and probably much more. Even the wimpy Europeons who are completely terrified of guns because of some probably freudian reason can usually deescalate a situation involving a firearm that doesn't involve shooting someone dead. and no not the fucking retarded as fuck "shoot them in the leg" bullshit.
I'll assume you're talking about cops involved in instances like this. You may want to chose you words better here. Most police shootings in the US involve people armed with deadly weapons AND attacking police or someone else.
American cops act more like soldiers in a occupied country rather then police officers. They act like everyone is a potential enemy, think at anytime someone can pull a gun and blast them. Cops do die but at a rate of about 1/10th that of the people they themselves kill. Thats fucking ridiculous.
Media heads do not speak for cops as a whole. You don't know what you're talking about here.
Now of course a solution to this would be to ban guns. Hard for these big tough men to feel threatened if nobody can defend themselves.......I mean fight back........I mean threaten police lives. Which is an attitude alot of people have, make the public disarm to let police feel more comfortable so they don't kill people.
Unarmed shootings, even if you counted situations where the unarmed person is actively attacking police, account for 9% of police shootings. The majority involve those armed with deadly weapons.
Or the police could be retrained not to fucking kill thousands of people.
Garbage post. How about you focus on the number of people shoot that didn't need to be instead of just pulling out the lump sum and pretending that they are all exactly the same context.
And don't get me wrong, I feel for alot of cops. I don't think most cops are bad, I don't even think most cops want to shoot the people they shoot.
Your words say otherwise.
But they do, through horrible military style training right alongside their military style "assault weapons", military style uniforms, and actual military surplus equipment and vehicles they kill thousands of innocent people every year. Black, white, male, female, mentally sound, and the mentally loony, all are killed at the hands of cops in preventable situations.
Thousands of innocent people a year? You're full of shit, son.
I dunno, I just needed to rant about that. This Tamir Rice shit pisses me right the fuck off. I could have easily been him as a kid considering I was a little shit who loved toy guns. However I was white and lived in a rural area where it ain't that odd to see actual firearms open carried.
Next time try ranting with facts instead of this bullshit.
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Jub wrote:
So how do other nations get by with fewer police shootings and generally less aggressive tactics? Why are German officers trained to fire warning shots? Why do UK officers often go on patrol without a firearm at all? Are these nations just made up of steel balled men and women?
Why do those countries have stricter use of deadly force laws? Why can you kill an intruder in your home in the US but not in Germany or UK? Why was the last murder of a UK police officer back in 2012? Over the last three years the US has had the more police deaths due to just assault then the UK has had for all types of violence in the same time period. (6 vs 3)
* I left out instances of vehicular assault for both because it wasn't clear whether those deaths were caused by accident or the suspect intentionally ran the officer down.
I think US officers are just flat out scared, they buy their own propaganda and fear getting gunned down.Yet when all is said and done their job is less dangerous than logging or fishing.
Not if you're talking about deaths due to homicide. Police rank #2 on that list and even then using just death is a narrow metric. Just because I survive being shot at doesn't mean it wasn't dangerous. Of course, this shouldn't be taken to mean that I buy into that propaganda because you are right about that. There is propaganda that there is a war on cops but police deaths due to firearm violence is actually down by 17%.
Last edited by Kamakazie Sith on 2015-12-31 10:04pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

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Kamakazie Sith wrote:Why do those countries have stricter use of deadly force laws? Why can you kill an intruder in your home in the US but not in Germany or UK? Why was the last murder of a UK police officer back in 2012? Over the last three years the US has had the more police deaths due to just assault then the UK has had for all types of violence in the same time period. (6 vs 3)
Obviously, some of those differences are due to very different social safety nets and the simple lack of weapons among the populace. Both things which the US can and should take steps towards reforming. Beyond that, I can see things like, unified national training standards rather than allowing each state to handle things themselves making a difference in the quality of officers, the lack of a war on drugs, the lack of a permanent underclass made up of primarily non-whites, the lack of a for-profit prison system, and better education making differences.
Not if you're talking about deaths due to homicide. Police rank #2 on that list and even then using just death is a narrow metric. Just because I survive being shot at doesn't mean it wasn't dangerous. Of course, this shouldn't be taken to mean that I buy into that propaganda because you are right about that. There is propaganda that there is a war on cops but police deaths due to firearm violence is actually down by 17%.
I wasn't talking homicide. Yeah, homicide sucks, but dead is dead regardless of the fact that a tree did it as opposed to a criminal. I also think that police should be allowed to take steps to avoid getting killed or wounded in the line of duty, I just disagree that the current methods are accomplishing that in the best way possible.
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Patroklos »

Jub wrote:... the lack of a permanent underclass made up of primarily non-whites....
More? Yes. Primarily? No.

United States:

White:19,027,400
Black:10,312,400
Hispanic: 12,853,100
Other:3,555,500

TOTAL: 45,748,400

http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/po ... ethnicity/

Close to half of impoverished Americans are white. Perhaps you need to take a look at the underlying assumptions you have about the country you live in.
Last edited by Patroklos on 2015-12-31 10:16pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

Jub wrote:
Kamakazie Sith wrote:Why do those countries have stricter use of deadly force laws? Why can you kill an intruder in your home in the US but not in Germany or UK? Why was the last murder of a UK police officer back in 2012? Over the last three years the US has had the more police deaths due to just assault then the UK has had for all types of violence in the same time period. (6 vs 3)
Obviously, some of those differences are due to very different social safety nets and the simple lack of weapons among the populace. Both things which the US can and should take steps towards reforming. Beyond that, I can see things like, unified national training standards rather than allowing each state to handle things themselves making a difference in the quality of officers, the lack of a war on drugs, the lack of a permanent underclass made up of primarily non-whites, the lack of a for-profit prison system, and better education making differences.
I strongly agree with all of this. A national police training standard and I would add national discipline/termination record for police.
Not if you're talking about deaths due to homicide. Police rank #2 on that list and even then using just death is a narrow metric. Just because I survive being shot at doesn't mean it wasn't dangerous. Of course, this shouldn't be taken to mean that I buy into that propaganda because you are right about that. There is propaganda that there is a war on cops but police deaths due to firearm violence is actually down by 17%.
I wasn't talking homicide. Yeah, homicide sucks, but dead is dead regardless of the fact that a tree did it as opposed to a criminal. I also think that police should be allowed to take steps to avoid getting killed or wounded in the line of duty, I just disagree that the current methods are accomplishing that in the best way possible.[/quote]

I know, but that's the thing though. People use these statistics to push a particular narrative so they can make statements such as "not as dangerous". It's intellectually dishonest. There are different types of danger.
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

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Patroklos wrote:More? Yes. Primarily? No.

United States:

White:19,027,400
Black:10,312,400
Hispanic: 12,853,100
Other:3,555,500

TOTAL: 45,748,400

http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/po ... ethnicity/

Close to half of impoverished Americans are white. Perhaps you need to take a look at the underlying assumptions you have about the country you live in.
The country I live in? I'm Canadian born and raised, you might want to take a look at the underlying assumptions you have about the nation I live in.

Not to mention that the programs available to help the poor aren't even from city to city or state to state. African Americans, for example, are concentrated in the south where social programs tend to be less available. You also have to look at poverty numbers as a percentage of the ethnic groups population rather than the population as a whole. It's a lot easier to feel isolated and incapable of upwards mobility as a minority than as a member of the white majority.

In short, get a clue.
Kamakazie Sith wrote:I strongly agree with all of this. A national police training standard and I would add national discipline/termination record for police.
I would fully support that. Also, record sharing for disciplinary and mental health issues for ex-military members could help given the number of soldiers turned police officers.
I know, but that's the thing though. People use these statistics to push a particular narrative so they can make statements such as "not as dangerous". It's intellectually dishonest. There are different types of danger.
I see it this way, some jobs pace you at a high risk of death and serious injury alike. Other jobs are lower risk, but when things do go bad they tend to go very badly, I'd place police and soldiers in this category. Explaining the risk involved to those entering these fields in a way that promotes understanding, but minimizes fear would be the best approach to take. It would also be useful to explain these risks to outsiders so they understand your thought process.

Of course, there will always be people who are poor at evaluating risk, or who conflate the severity of the risk with the likelihood of that risk ever coming up, but that's life.
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

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Thanas wrote:EDIT: Because I can see the argument that the police could not know it was a toy gun already in the near future, the only reason why the police office even had cause to fear was because he put himself in an escalated position. They should never have driven up so fast. They should never have gotten so close that they felt it was self defence (if we want to be charitable to them. I personally believe that they drove up intended to be as aggressive as they could be).
The officer who shot didn't put himself into that position, the officer driving the car did. They're two separate people, and the officer who took the shot had no real control over his positioning. He was just a passenger.

A part of me wonders if, from a legal perspective, that's part of why he was not indicted? Because yeah, bad positioning forcing an escalation of the situation...but the officer who fired didn't intentionally place himself in that position. His partner did. So can he be held accountable (criminally) for what his partner did?
Kamakazie Sith wrote:Bottom line is that both of those cops shouldn't be cops. The veteran officer (the driver) displayed insanely poor tactics by driving right up to Rice. The rookie officer (the shooter) shouldn't have been there due to the reviews from his former employer.
My question, along the lines I outlined above:

Assuming the officer who took the shot had a 'clean' record (no bad past history) but a similar situation occurred: his partner, the one driving, put him in a bad position. But because of that bad position, the second officer was forced to fire in a situation that might have been avoided with better tactical positioning.

Do you still hold the second officer, who was a passenger and had no control over where the car ended up, accountable for the screw-up of his partner?
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Joun_Lord »

Kamakazie Sith wrote:I'll assume you're talking about cops involved in instances like this. You may want to chose you words better here. Most police shootings in the US involve people armed with deadly weapons AND attacking police or someone else.
Yes I was talking about the Eurocommie cops. People aren't being shot by other people too much in Euroland because they haven't many civilian weapons and those that do are apparently magical lands. Anyway those 3 instances I mentioned do not involve a deadly weapon against the police. Plenty of other instances of people being shot while not having a weapon, not attacking LEOs, or not doing much of anything to warrant being shot ded.
Media heads do not speak for cops as a whole. You don't know what you're talking about here.


I know in 2014 there were 133 police officers killed in the line of duty o which 47 were killt by gunfire (27 died in automocar accidents). I know police in the same year killed over a thousand people. Maybe it is just the media focusing on it but police officers atleast seem to be blasting fools for little reason and getting a buttload of military surplus to use against the good little citizens.
Unarmed shootings, even if you counted situations where the unarmed person is actively attacking police, account for 9% of police shootings. The majority involve those armed with deadly weapons.
That still would be around a 100 people being killed wrongly by police assuming the OVER ONE THOUSAND!!!! (this isn't me trying to draw attention to that number but me making a very bad and very played out DBZ joke) is correct. Compared to the overall number of deaths by cops that isn't a majority but thats still a shitton of people dead that shouldn't be.
Garbage post. How about you focus on the number of people shoot that didn't need to be instead of just pulling out the lump sum and pretending that they are all exactly the same context.
Of course they aren't all the exact same context. But in the context they are in that shows US law enforcement kills far more people then any other developed nation, that there is literally piles of dead civilians the result of police action. Other context is important but for the purpose of this thread the number itself is what is important.
Your words say otherwise.
My words say I'm disappointed and disgusted by the actions of some law enforcement, angry that some cops are essentially murdering people and getting away with it. Doesn't mean I blame all the cops or anything. Hell I don't even blame the cops themselves for the shootings at times. The police that do this shit are a product of their training and environment. They have bad training, they work in an environment where they are bombarded by instructors and the media about how dangerous it is to be a police officer. They are forced to go after people that shouldn't need going after because of shitty quotas and unfair, vaguely racist, and certainly terrible drug laws.

Thats not me giving police a pass either. They are the ones who hold the Glawks and Short and Weak M&P-9s, and surplus M4 evil black assault weapons and choose to use in poorly.
Thousands of innocent people a year? You're full of shit, son.
Maybe I misspoke, mistyped, a bit with the "thousands" but over a thousand people are killed in the US by law enforcement according to sources. And I'm full of guts, huge guts, father. Also links.

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/data-s ... cops-2014/

https://reason.com/blog/2014/12/09/more ... n-killed-b

http://www.killedbypolice.net/kbp2014.html

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-i ... s-database#

http://www.killedbypolice.net/
Next time try ranting with facts instead of this bullshit.
Can't I do both?
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Kamakazie Sith »

RogueIce wrote: The officer who shot didn't put himself into that position, the officer driving the car did. They're two separate people, and the officer who took the shot had no real control over his positioning. He was just a passenger.

A part of me wonders if, from a legal perspective, that's part of why he was not indicted? Because yeah, bad positioning forcing an escalation of the situation...but the officer who fired didn't intentionally place himself in that position. His partner did. So can he be held accountable (criminally) for what his partner did?
Possibly. According to some legal experts the positioning of the car and then the actions of the Rice would make it very difficult to prosecute for even manslaughter.
My question, along the lines I outlined above:

Assuming the officer who took the shot had a 'clean' record (no bad past history) but a similar situation occurred: his partner, the one driving, put him in a bad position. But because of that bad position, the second officer was forced to fire in a situation that might have been avoided with better tactical positioning.

Do you still hold the second officer, who was a passenger and had no control over where the car ended up, accountable for the screw-up of his partner?
No, I don't. Though if it was found out that they both talked about their approach and agreed on that then I would.
Joun_Lord wrote: Yes I was talking about the Eurocommie cops. People aren't being shot by other people too much in Euroland because they haven't many civilian weapons and those that do are apparently magical lands. Anyway those 3 instances I mentioned do not involve a deadly weapon against the police. Plenty of other instances of people being shot while not having a weapon, not attacking LEOs, or not doing much of anything to warrant being shot ded.
It's because of of many factors, but a big one is our stance on deadly force which is much less restrictive than our European cousins. For example, if someone breaks into my house I can shoot them dead without discussion or negotiation. Any civilian can. Just a couple years ago two 14 year old kids broke into a man home and he one of them dead as they were coming in through the window. Ruled justified.
I know in 2014 there were 133 police officers killed in the line of duty o which 47 were killt by gunfire (27 died in automocar accidents). I know police in the same year killed over a thousand people. Maybe it is just the media focusing on it but police officers atleast seem to be blasting fools for little reason and getting a buttload of military surplus to use against the good little citizens.
I also know that in 2014 there were 1932 assault on officers with firearms. 966 with knives, and 6812 with other weapons. Even if we reduce it by 75% to account for instances where multiple officers are attacked by the same person that is 2,427 instances where deadly force by the police would have been justified.

Well, it is the media focusing on it and for good reason because there are police officers that are blasting people for little reason.
That still would be around a 100 people being killed wrongly by police assuming the OVER ONE THOUSAND!!!! (this isn't me trying to draw attention to that number but me making a very bad and very played out DBZ joke) is correct. Compared to the overall number of deaths by cops that isn't a majority but thats still a shitton of people dead that shouldn't be.
Shootings by police are at 980 right now. The figure by the guardian, which is at 1134, is all deaths when police are involved whether it be due to gunfire, taser, or fight.

Well, saying they shouldn't be dead doesn't work when you disregarding context for the unarmed. Take the time that a police officer shot an unarmed off duty firefighter because he was beating the officer so severely that he broke the officers face bones. That is a justified shooting. So, if we're going to make the statement that there are people dead that shouldn't be we do need to look at the other possibility. If we assume that all attacks in progress against officers by unarmed people are justified that leaves just 5% of all shootings unjustified.
Garbage post. How about you focus on the number of people shoot that didn't need to be instead of just pulling out the lump sum and pretending that they are all exactly the same context.
Of course they aren't all the exact same context. But in the context they are in that shows US law enforcement kills far more people then any other developed nation, that there is literally piles of dead civilians the result of police action. Other context is important but for the purpose of this thread the number itself is what is important.
My words say I'm disappointed and disgusted by the actions of some law enforcement, angry that some cops are essentially murdering people and getting away with it. Doesn't mean I blame all the cops or anything. Hell I don't even blame the cops themselves for the shootings at times. The police that do this shit are a product of their training and environment. They have bad training, they work in an environment where they are bombarded by instructors and the media about how dangerous it is to be a police officer. They are forced to go after people that shouldn't need going after because of shitty quotas and unfair, vaguely racist, and certainly terrible drug laws.

Thats not me giving police a pass either. They are the ones who hold the Glawks and Short and Weak M&P-9s, and surplus M4 evil black assault weapons and choose to use in poorly.
Ok, that's fair. Remark retracted. Thanks for clarifying.
Maybe I misspoke, mistyped, a bit with the "thousands" but over a thousand people are killed in the US by law enforcement according to sources. And I'm full of guts, huge guts, father. Also links.
You misspoke when you called all one thousand innocent. You said "they kill thousands of innocent people every year". That's bullshit. The thousand number is true. The innocent part is not but innocent people certainly are victims but not thousand.
Haha @ freethoughtproject. I know you probably don't realize this but here's another FTP concern.

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/americ ... er-forget/

They're basically another infowars so I would be cautious when using them as a source.
I'm not disputing the 1000 number. I'm disputing your claim that they are innocent.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics ... shootings/

Go there and then select "deadly weapon" and "attack in progress" then read the descriptions. Here's a couple. Note I am picking the instances where there is no argument as to whether or not they are innocent based off the description.

Fred Perez, a 55-year-old man armed with a knife, was shot on Dec. 30, 2015, in an apartment in Fresno, Calif. Fresno police responded to a report of a disturbance. When officers arrived, they saw Perez inside the residence stabbing a woman.

Terrozza Tyree Griffin, a 24-year-old black man armed with a gun, was shot on Dec. 24, 2015, in a house in Lansing, Mich. Lansing police officers were responding to a report of a home invasion. Griffin exchanged gunfire with the officers.

Charles Reynolds, a 61-year-old man armed with a gun, was shot on Dec. 22, 2015, in a parking lot in Ludlow, Ky. A Ludlow police officer stopped Reynolds for a traffic violation. He exchanged gunfire with the officer, who was wounded.
Can't I do both?
I retract my statement here it was insensitive. Regardless of your position on the shooting of Tamir Rice it is quite clearly a tragedy so you should be able to do both without being dressed down for it.
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Thanas »

I really wish more police officers in the USA were as levelheaded as you, KS.

But I still don't get how there is not a national movement to clean this shit up and why the police unions and prosecutors seem to be more interested in backing "their guys" up. I don't get it.
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Thanas wrote:I really wish more police officers in the USA were as levelheaded as you, KS.

But I still don't get how there is not a national movement to clean this shit up and why the police unions and prosecutors seem to be more interested in backing "their guys" up. I don't get it.
In-group processes. Groups of humans that self-identify with eachother tend to circle the wagons and protect their own. No one wants to think that their friend Steve murdered someone, or that they have a serial rapist walking about amongst them. This translates up to the unions who are contractually obliged to defend their members tooth and nail, and to the prosecutors who dont want to ruffle feathers in the police department.

And the public wont indict because of blind faith in police.
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Joun_Lord »

Kamakazie Sith wrote:It's because of of many factors, but a big one is our stance on deadly force which is much less restrictive than our European cousins. For example, if someone breaks into my house I can shoot them dead without discussion or negotiation. Any civilian can. Just a couple years ago two 14 year old kids broke into a man home and he one of them dead as they were coming in through the window. Ruled justified.
Are you talking about this? Because atleast in this case the shooting was not justified. Here in the US we thankfully don't have self-defense and home defense laws that are pants on head retarded (mostly) but even so excessive force can still be unjustified. And there should be a considerable difference in the response to a scared home owner with no training and a law enforcement officer with atleast some training. Police officers have an important job, one that has peoples lives (including their own) in their hand, they need to be held to a higher standard then Juan Average.
I also know that in 2014 there were 1932 assault on officers with firearms. 966 with knives, and 6812 with other weapons. Even if we reduce it by 75% to account for instances where multiple officers are attacked by the same person that is 2,427 instances where deadly force by the police would have been justified.

Well, it is the media focusing on it and for good reason because there are police officers that are blasting people for little reason.


Mind you I never said being a cop isn't dangerous. But walking down Main St USA is considerably less deadly or dangerous then some Army trooper troopin' down the streets of Afghanistan and there is no reason to have the same mindset. Be wary, most definitely, but not insta-kill any possible threats.
Shootings by police are at 980 right now. The figure by the guardian, which is at 1134, is all deaths when police are involved whether it be due to gunfire, taser, or fight.

Well, saying they shouldn't be dead doesn't work when you disregarding context for the unarmed. Take the time that a police officer shot an unarmed off duty firefighter because he was beating the officer so severely that he broke the officers face bones. That is a justified shooting. So, if we're going to make the statement that there are people dead that shouldn't be we do need to look at the other possibility. If we assume that all attacks in progress against officers by unarmed people are justified that leaves just 5% of all shootings unjustified.
I probably worded it badly (you would think English is a second language for me but no, I'm just that terrible at it) but I know most shootings by cops aren't unjustified. Someone who is a clear and present danger needs put down. But there is still alot of times when people are shoot for little reasons. Those kids I mentioned. The guy in a Walmart with a airgun. Some guy sitting in his car with another airgun. The crazy chick in a police station with a note.

Now I know its media dramatization to make the problem seem worse then it is, they only report the bad. They aren't going to be reporting on a cop getting someone to stand down or stopping someone from taking their own lives. Its like reporting on hospitals. More or less the only time they make the news is when something goes wrong.

But still for police stuff goes wrong and if its preventable that should be unacceptable.
Ok, that's fair. Remark retracted. Thanks for clarifying.


I like cops. I've met a few in my time, even some during less then ideal circumstances, and for the most part all were pretty nice. I can think of only one cop who was a total asshole out of the probably dozens of encounters with police. I respect the, I respect the job they do, a job I probably couldn't do if for nothing else then I don't do well with people and all dat power would instantly go to my brain bits.

Thats why it strikes me so fiercely when police do such shit as discussed.
You misspoke when you called all one thousand innocent. You said "they kill thousands of innocent people every year". That's bullshit. The thousand number is true. The innocent part is not but innocent people certainly are victims but not thousand.


Okay, you got me there. I retract my "innocent" statement. Certainly the majority of people shot by police are not just innocent people.


http://thefreethoughtproject.com/data-s ... cops-2014/

Haha @ freethoughtproject. I know you probably don't realize this but here's another FTP concern.

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/americ ... er-forget/

They're basically another infowars so I would be cautious when using them as a source.


They seemed a bit sketchy but they were mostly refering to other sources that seemed less sketchy. And apparently less insane.
I'm not disputing the 1000 number. I'm disputing your claim that they are innocent.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics ... shootings/

Go there and then select "deadly weapon" and "attack in progress" then read the descriptions. Here's a couple. Note I am picking the instances where there is no argument as to whether or not they are innocent based off the description.

Fred Perez, a 55-year-old man armed with a knife, was shot on Dec. 30, 2015, in an apartment in Fresno, Calif. Fresno police responded to a report of a disturbance. When officers arrived, they saw Perez inside the residence stabbing a woman.

Terrozza Tyree Griffin, a 24-year-old black man armed with a gun, was shot on Dec. 24, 2015, in a house in Lansing, Mich. Lansing police officers were responding to a report of a home invasion. Griffin exchanged gunfire with the officers.

Charles Reynolds, a 61-year-old man armed with a gun, was shot on Dec. 22, 2015, in a parking lot in Ludlow, Ky. A Ludlow police officer stopped Reynolds for a traffic violation. He exchanged gunfire with the officer, who was wounded.
Stuff like that is most definitely a justified shooting. It the times that its not so clear cut that I got a rant boner for.
I retract my statement here it was insensitive. Regardless of your position on the shooting of Tamir Rice it is quite clearly a tragedy so you should be able to do both without being dressed down for it.
No worries. This is clearly a emotional topic for all. Tempers will be less then ideal giving the nature of what transpired. The shooting of Tamir Rice is a thing that gets to me but that was no reason to fly off the handle half cocked myself and I apologize if I made any dickish statements.
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Napoleon the Clown »

Patroklos wrote:
Napoleon the Clown wrote: Consider his entire posting history. He almost always supports the right-wing views. Right-wing views tend to view negotiating as weakness. Right-wing views hold that anything other than immediate use of force makes you weak and will cause everyone to walk all over you. If Patroklos wants to prove he supports attempts at peaceful resolution he can point me to an instance of him doing so. I'll concede that he respects attempts at non-violent resolution.
Sorry Clown, that's not how the debate rules on SD work. First you need to support your accusation before I even have to consider responding. So put up, or shut up, and if its shut up provide the required retraction.
Which part do you disagree with here? That you've got a posting history supporting conservative views? That conservatives tend to view violence as the best first option? I can link to your profile for the first one, and simply looking at the warmongering among the US conservative political party, or looking at the comments on Republican websites, supports the notion that they prefer acts of force over finding a position that can get everyone to calm down without shots being fired. Look at the damn Iran nuclear deal, how angry Republicans were that Obama dared trying to find a way to not go to war. Listen to conservatives babble on about how the rest of the world laughs at America because Obama is "weak" aka doesn't bomb a new country every six months.
Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Napoleon the Clown wrote: Shooting in public is more dangerous than not shooting in public. If the police are out to reduce harm to civilians, they should try to avoid gunfire happening at all. Police aren't fucking soldiers surrounded by enemy combatants. Tamir Rice wasn't aiming at anybody when the police arrived, there were just reports of that happening. So immediately charging in like they did, weapons at the ready? That's an issue. They could have been physically on top of him before he could do jack shit with a gun. Drawing and aiming takes time. More time than running six feet and tackling someone to the ground.
Based off our practical exercises this is incorrect. A police car is the most dangerous place to be as a cop when confronting a person armed with a handgun. As for that part about them exiting their car, tacking the guy before he can draw and fire I would like to know your source because I haven't seen anyone do that. Exiting a car takes time as well.
I base it off this episode of Mythbusters. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MythBuste ... ilemmas.22

Basically, the time to draw a weapon and aim is long enough that you can be physically on top of someone before they can shoot, if you're within about five meters. Tamir Rice did not have the BB gun out at the time he was shot.
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Patroklos »

Napoleon the Clown wrote: Which part do you disagree with here? That you've got a posting history supporting conservative views? That conservatives tend to view violence as the best first option? I can link to your profile for the first one, and simply looking at the warmongering among the US conservative political party, or looking at the comments on Republican websites, supports the notion that they prefer acts of force over finding a position that can get everyone to calm down without shots being fired. Look at the damn Iran nuclear deal, how angry Republicans were that Obama dared trying to find a way to not go to war. Listen to conservatives babble on about how the rest of the world laughs at America because Obama is "weak" aka doesn't bomb a new country every six months.
Republicans are also the part of isolationism, which is about as little use of force as you can get.

Stop quibbling. You made a very specific claim about me specifically. The search function is there for your convenience. I only 1500ish posts. Stop being a wuss and back it up.
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Napoleon the Clown »

Patroklos wrote:
Napoleon the Clown wrote: Which part do you disagree with here? That you've got a posting history supporting conservative views? That conservatives tend to view violence as the best first option? I can link to your profile for the first one, and simply looking at the warmongering among the US conservative political party, or looking at the comments on Republican websites, supports the notion that they prefer acts of force over finding a position that can get everyone to calm down without shots being fired. Look at the damn Iran nuclear deal, how angry Republicans were that Obama dared trying to find a way to not go to war. Listen to conservatives babble on about how the rest of the world laughs at America because Obama is "weak" aka doesn't bomb a new country every six months.
Republicans are also the part of isolationism, which is about as little use of force as you can get.

Stop quibbling. You made a very specific claim about me specifically. The search function is there for your convenience. I only 1500ish posts. Stop being a wuss and back it up.
The claim I made about you, specifically, was that you tend to support conservative positions. I speculated upon Thanas' question based off of this.

Maybe you sometimes do go in favor of deescalating a situation, but I don't recall seeing it. Your posts in this thread do nothing to make me believe otherwise. Your post history is almost 1500 long, so it makes digging through all of the stuff in Star Wars topics... time consuming. I'll concede I may have missed an instance of you favoring talking down a bad situation.
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Patroklos »

Sorry Clown, but "missing an instance" was not the position you laid down, nor the challenge you placed afterward. Shall I remind you?
If Patroklos wants to prove he supports attempts at peaceful resolution he can point me to an instance of him doing so. I'll concede that he respects attempts at non-violent resolution.
So now that we know you were talking out of your ass from the get go, I'll take that challenger for the win.

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 4&start=50

You may admit you are full of shit at your pleasure.
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Napoleon the Clown »

Very well, I concede.
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Civil War Man »

It gets worse.

The Grand Jury in the Tamir Rice case did not take a vote on whether or not to press charges
The grand jury that opted not to indict Cleveland police officers Timothy Loehmann and Frank Garmback in the shooting death of Tamir Rice never actually took a vote on the matter, according to the Cuyahoga County Prosecutor's Office.

What actually happened in the most significant grand jury hearing in county history isn't quite clear, and the mechanism by which the grand jury "declined to indict" — in Prosecutor Timothy McGinty's own words — is equally unclear.

At the conclusion of a typical grand jury hearing, there are two possible outcomes achieved via vote: a "true bill," which results in criminal charges and a case number in the court system, or a "no bill," which is a decision not to bring charges. A "no-bill notification" is signed and stamped and kept on record at the county clerk's office.

Though Cuyahoga County Prosecutor Timothy McGinty never explicitly said the grand jury voted not to indict — nor did he utter the phrase "no bill" — in his Dec. 28 press conference, he declared that that grand jury had declined to indict.

How, then, if not by voting?

After learning and confirming on Jan. 15 that there was no "no-bill notification" on file at the county clerk's office for the Tamir Rice grand jury proceedings, Scene formally requested the document officially showing the decision, however it was reached, and wherever said document might be. We were told that it didn't exist. Employees at both the clerk's and prosecutor's officers were unable to explain the lack of paperwork.

Tuesday, Scene spoke with Joe Frolik, the communications director for the Prosecutor's Office, who said no no-bill record exists because, "it's technically not a no-bill, because they didn't vote on charges."

He elaborated: “This was an investigative grand jury. This was kind of their role. Sometimes, a grand jury, after its investigation, will decide if there are no votes to be taken on charges.”

But how that decision was reached and the location of any record of that decision remain publicly unaccounted for. The term “investigative grand jury” appears nowhere in McGinty’s public statements and reports on the proceedings.

Professor Jonathan Witmer-Rich from the Cleveland-Marshall College of Law at Cleveland State, who specializes in criminal law, explains what that term means.

"Prosecutors sometimes use [grand juries] as investigative grand juries to determine whether any criminal wrongdoing has happened or not,” he said. “It happens with political corruption cases or very complicated investigations. The Tamir Rice case, that's how I believe the prosecutor viewed that grand jury. What the grand jury allows you to do is have the power to subpoena documents and call witnesses and have them testify under oath. It allows you to get all the information and investigate whether a crime has occurred. They're not different legal entities, but they are serving different functions and thus might behave differently.

"But if they don't hold a vote, how do they decide not to hold a vote? And would there be a record of that?” he continued. “It's not like the prosecutor has the power to prevent the grand jury from voting. If there was no vote on a bill in this case, the prosecutor might have influenced that —- he might have said there's no reason to even vote because we all agree, or something — but it's still the grand jury's decision. It ultimately has the power to consider the facts as they're aware of. Because of grand jury secrecy rules, though, we can't know what happened inside that room."

As for a case that went before a grand jury but didn't result in a vote, Witmer-Rich said, "I'm not aware of an example...It could happen, I suppose, but I've never heard anyone talk about that."

Professor Lewis Katz, a criminal law expert at the Case Western Reserve University School of Law, noted that investigative grand juries are ordinarily held in secret. In his view, the Tamir Rice grand jury was not investigative.

When informed that not only is that what the Prosecutor's Office said (i.e. that it was an investigative grand jury) but that no vote occurred at the end of the proceedings, Katz said, "I'm stunned."

He then raised a point hammered home by Rice family attorney Subodh Chandra during the grand jury's term: The two officers in question submitted statements under oath, and thus waived their Fifth Amendment rights, opening them up to questioning. If you view the grand jury as investigative — and thus make every use of subpoena power to get people to talk under oath — the fact that neither McGinty nor the grand jury got to cross-examine the officers and ask questions is strange — decidedly non-investigative. Katz suggested the grand jury might not have been informed of that possibility, probably because the Prosecutor's Office mistakenly viewed that the officers could reclaim their Fifth Amendment positions after submitting the statements.

"But by taking the oath and submitting statements," Katz said, "they waived it."

And if there was no vote at the end: "Then why go to the grand jury at all? Why was there one if they weren't asked to vote?"

When considering that question, McGinty’s past statements only become muddier.

In his own words on Dec. 28 (the day the decision was announced), McGinty said: "Based on the evidence they heard and on the law as it applies to police use of deadly force, the Grand Jury declined to bring criminal charges against Cleveland Police Officers Timothy Loehmann and Frank Garmback."

During the same Dec. 28 press conference McGinty touted his own decision in 2011 to "run for County Prosecutor to make our Criminal Justice System more transparent, professional and accountable."

Indeed, openness and honesty were prominent themes during his handling of the Tamir Rice case — he trumpeted transparency when releasing investigation records of the case to the public, including expert opinions his office commissioned — but his announcement on Dec. 28 turns out to have been remarkably opaque.

After all, news of a "no-bill" was reported and repeated around the world, the "no bill" portion being assumed by anyone covering the grand jury. Many outlets simply used McGinty's language — "declined to indict," "elected not to press charges" — but the assumption was that the decision was reached by a vote. That assumption is held to this day not only by outside observers, but by high-ranking judicial personnel within the Justice Center Complex.

Even without a vote, some documentation that explains what transpired should exist. It's the equivalent of a no-bill, Frolik told us, but added that his office didn't have the document in question.

He directed us to Cuyahoga County Common Pleas Judge Nancy McDonnell, who presided over the grand jury. Her office didn't have the document either, and the judge told Scene she had no comment on the matter.

We were then directed to the Cuyahoga County grand jury office. Wednesday morning, a clerk there told Scene that the "mysterious document" may or may not exist and that, even if it does, it could only be provided to us via court order by Administrative and Presiding Judge John J. Russo. And even with a court order, the clerk said, she might not be able to hand it over.

Russo, who spoke to Scene by phone, professed to be as confused as we were. "When you say 'document,' I'm not sure what you mean. I don't know what that is. It's either a true bill or a no bill," he said.

But actually, no.

His staff determined Wednesday that a “no-bill” had never been filed. Russo said he had a "judges meeting" Wednesday afternoon, at which he intended to seek clarification from Judge Nancy McDonnell about what precisely was filed.

We’re awaiting word both on the content of that discussion and the subsequent question of a court order that would pry loose the mysterious document.

Reached Tuesday, Subodh Chandra, the local attorney for the Rice family, said that the whole process has been "irregular.” He said he and his team had asked the county if the grand jury members were led through each possible charge for a vote or whether there was one overarching vote on all charges, but never received an answer. When informed no vote of any kind took place, Chandra said: "If it is true that the prosecutor didn't even call for an up or down vote on potential criminal charges, including aggravated murder, then it is truly the ultimate insult to the Rice family,” Chandra said, “that the prosecutor didn't even think it mattered to bring the grand jury proceedings to their proper conclusion."

***

Update (6:00 p.m.): After two days of calls, the Prosecutor's Office produced the document in question that states the grand jurors declined to issue criminal charges.

Image


How that decision was made — i.e. a record of what the vote was, unanimous or mixed — is still unclear.

McGinty's office issued a statement in response to the story pointing toward the policy on police use of deadly force cases involving civilians. The full statement is below; the short version is this: 1) It insists all possible charges are read to the grand jury (that McGinty did or did not do that is unclear), and 2) It's up to the grand jury to disagree with the prosecutor if the prosecutor is not against pursuing charges: The grand jury has to ask for a charge to vote on a no-bill or true bill.

Image

Image

A reminder that court officials, members of the Prosecutor's Office, lawyers and just about everyone else had no idea that this was what happened in the Rice case. Nor does it address the deficiencies in a policy that asks the grand jury to disagree with the Prosecutor's recommendation and opinion in order to pursue — or even vote — on charges.

***

Update II (6:26 p.m.): Attorney Jonathan S. Abady, a lawyer for Samaria Rice, has issued a statement. It emphasizes, in part, that the family was ensured that a vote of the grand jury would take place.

Image


Update III: The prosecutor's office now says that a vote was taken by the grand jury on the issue of whether the shooting was justified. The Washington Post got an explanation from McGinty spokesman Joe Frolik, who also told the paper that while he told Scene his office didn't have a copy of the document in question, someone did find a copy late Wednesday afternoon after this story was originally published.
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Edi »

So, another coverup to shield corrupt or incompetent cops. What a complete lack of surprise.
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Thanas »

Fishy as hell.
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Dominus Atheos »

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/2/11 ... illing-him
City of Cleveland charges Tamir Rice's family $500 for killing him

And you thought Chicago cops had a lotta of nerve. And they do. But the City of Cleveland may have them beat.

The City of Cleveland filed a creditor’s claim against the estate of Tamir Rice, the black 12-year old who was fatally shot by police in 2014, for not paying emergency medical service fees, CleveScene reported Wednesday.

The $500 fee is “owing for emergency medical services rendered as the decedent’s last dying expense under Ohio Revised Code,” according to the report.
You can read the claim for yourself here.

This is the most recent indignity to be inflicted on Rice’s family since his murder by Cleveland Police Officer Tim Loehmann in November of 2014. Prior to this, it was the Cuyahoga county prosecutor who brought Loehmann before a grand jury but didn’t actually have the grand jury vote on indicting him.

And before that, it was the city’s answer to the family’s wrongful death lawsuit, saying that the 12-year old Rice was responsible for his own death.

And now, the City of Cleveland wants Rice’s family to pay for the aid that emergency medical service rendered to him seven minutes after he was shot. Seven minutes, because they arrived on the scene three minutes after another law enforcement officer–an FBI agent who was in the vicinity, NOT a Cleveland police officer–provided aid to Rice … four minutes after he had been shot.

Its hard to find such a sad, horrific and twisted case of injustice elsewhere.

Its also hard to find any more words to describe it.
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Flagg »

Yeah I saw this and had to laugh or I'd have snapped my iPad in half. I really, really, really want to believe this is just some beurocratic fuck-up that could happen in any case, but the fact that it's been in the news cycle for a full fucking day and no Cleveland city official has come out rescinding the bill and apologizing tells me that this is literally the intentional rubbing of salt in the wound for them suing the city over the pigs that did this.

Not that I would have ever sullied myself by going to a flyover shithole state like Ohio anyway, but this pretty much cements my never going to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

Post by MKSheppard »

It costs money to treat/attempt to treat a serious GSW; particularly sanitizing the ambulance afterwards and replenishing the sterile stock consumed.
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Re: No indictments in Tamir Rice shooting

Post by Edi »

MKSheppard wrote:It costs money to treat/attempt to treat a serious GSW; particularly sanitizing the ambulance afterwards and replenishing the sterile stock consumed.
That is the cost of doing business for the government in a situation like that. They have no business trying to recoup the costs of the cleanup from the family of a child that the city's incompetent cops wrongfully shot.
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