Dylann Roof sentenced to death

[Flagg]

We must set an example, people! Killing is wrong. So we're killing this guy for killing people because killing is... Umm...

This is the perfect logic trick Kirk would use to kill an evil robot.

I'm not exactly an advocate of the death penalty, but you do understand there is a difference between right and wrong, and between judicial actions and random ones, right? Or are you saying that...

"Imprisonment is wrong, so we're imprisoning a guy for (false) imprisonment"

Does not compute?

No, I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of the death penalty with some hyperbole since we can hold people in custody rather than (legally) murdering them. And I'm talking about flat out definitely did the crime people. When you get into the nitty gritty factors of questions of guilt, institutional racism, and "humane" methods it bolsters the case against murdering putting people to death under the guise of legality.

And before anyone pulls the "life in prison = prolonged death penalty" let me preemptively " "

[Knife]

It is only hypocrisy when you define it in so simplistic black and white nonsense though. It is not hypocrisy if it is severe punishment for a severe crime, or to remove a dangerous and rabid person from the society.

I'm generally against the death penalty due to the system itself is broke, but putting down a rabid dog does not phase me one bit and I don't see any hypocrisy in it at all.

[Flagg]

It is only hypocrisy when you define it in so simplistic black and white nonsense though. It is not hypocrisy if it is severe punishment for a severe crime, or to remove a dangerous and rabid person from the society.

I'm generally against the death penalty due to the system itself is broke, but putting down a rabid dog does not phase me one bit and I don't see any hypocrisy in it at all.

Yeah, when you dehumanize a person it's very easy to feel that way. I imagine dehumanizing the black people this chucklefuck murdered made it much easier for him to murder them. And prison for life is removing him from society while also taking the moral high ground by not sinking to his level and murdering him for being "a rabid dog".

[Joun_Lord]

And you base this on...?

Well the obvious of course, killing a bunch of people based upon an insane ideology. But other things in his past point to signs of mental health problems. He was known to have obsessive compulsive order, having extremely anti-social behavior, drug use (which can sometimes show someone is trying to self medicate), and a suicidal attitude.

Maybe he isn't crazy, maybe he is. All that could just be circumstantial or something, I dunno. Either way I would have much preferred for a better mental health exam to take place to confirm whether he was rubber rooms and ass shots or just an ass. I suppose thats what happens when you have such a shitty lawyer.

[Flagg]

And you base this on...?

Well the obvious of course, killing a bunch of people based upon an insane ideology. But other things in his past point to signs of mental health problems. He was known to have obsessive compulsive order, having extremely anti-social behavior, drug use (which can sometimes show someone is trying to self medicate), and a suicidal attitude.

Maybe he isn't crazy, maybe he is. All that could just be circumstantial or something, I dunno. Either way I would have much preferred for a better mental health exam to take place to confirm whether he was rubber rooms and ass shots or just an ass. I suppose thats what happens when you have such a shitty lawyer.

It's a shitty system. The insanity defense fails like 99% of the time IIRC. It's so narrowly defined, mostly to keep rich assholes with good lawyers from "getting away with it". But people with severe paranoid schizophrenia can't use the defense successfully because of how narrowly worded the laws on the books are.

[Joun_Lord]

It's a shitty system. The insanity defense fails like 99% of the time IIRC. It's so narrowly defined, mostly to keep rich assholes with good lawyers from "getting away with it". But people with severe paranoid schizophrenia can't use the defense successfully because of how narrowly worded the laws on the books are.

Yeah, which sucks for the mentally ill people who would do better with help rather then being locked up for decades, making their condition worse if they even last, or being executed.

And I'm not saying anyone like Roof assuming he is all mentally ill should get away with it but certainly that should be a factor in their sentence, it shows they might not have been in complete control of their actions. A mentally ill person should be in a proper mental health facility where they can get the proper treatment and not strapped to some gurney in a shitty prison hospital or worse.

Personally I think Roof might have been crazy but don't believe that it was the primary factor in this. I think his mental state might have contributed to him doing this stupid, horrific, monstrous shit but he decided to do it with relatively clear mind. But thats just a gut feeling on my part, possibly a bit of dehumanization because of how much I abhor Roof both for his racism, his murders, and the fact I see too much of myself in him and so I want to blame it on the person and not the disease. But I'm not a mental health professional, don't even play one on tv, nor do I know Roof, so what i believe might be bullshit (wouldn't be the first time, I once believed America wouldn't be insane or stupid enough to try to elect Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton, boy was a greatly mistaken). Why I'd want a full mental workup done on Roof, even just to see the mindset that allowed him to do what he did. Maybe find out better warning signs by viewing his history leading up to the attack, signs of radicalization, something positive to come from this horrific act.

[General Zod]

It's a shitty system. The insanity defense fails like 99% of the time IIRC. It's so narrowly defined, mostly to keep rich assholes with good lawyers from "getting away with it". But people with severe paranoid schizophrenia can't use the defense successfully because of how narrowly worded the laws on the books are.

Yeah, which sucks for the mentally ill people who would do better with help rather then being locked up for decades, making their condition worse if they even last, or being executed.

And I'm not saying anyone like Roof assuming he is all mentally ill should get away with it but certainly that should be a factor in their sentence, it shows they might not have been in complete control of their actions. A mentally ill person should be in a proper mental health facility where they can get the proper treatment and not strapped to some gurney in a shitty prison hospital or worse.

Personally I think Roof might have been crazy but don't believe that it was the primary factor in this. I think his mental state might have contributed to him doing this stupid, horrific, monstrous shit but he decided to do it with relatively clear mind. But thats just a gut feeling on my part, possibly a bit of dehumanization because of how much I abhor Roof both for his racism, his murders, and the fact I see too much of myself in him and so I want to blame it on the person and not the disease. But I'm not a mental health professional, don't even play one on tv, nor do I know Roof, so what i believe might be bullshit (wouldn't be the first time, I once believed America wouldn't be insane or stupid enough to try to elect Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton, boy was a greatly mistaken). Why I'd want a full mental workup done on Roof, even just to see the mindset that allowed him to do what he did. Maybe find out better warning signs by viewing his history leading up to the attack, signs of radicalization, something positive to come from this horrific act.

Let's not scapegoat the mentally ill here. People do horrible things to each other without being insane all the time. In this case I think Dylan Roof was just a shit human with no empathy.

[madd0ct0r]

He shot a load of people hoping to be martyred to start a race war?

Where is that listed in the DSM as a symptom of a recognized mental disorder?

Schizophrenic break from reality with delusions of grandeur.

[Flagg]

It's a shitty system. The insanity defense fails like 99% of the time IIRC. It's so narrowly defined, mostly to keep rich assholes with good lawyers from "getting away with it". But people with severe paranoid schizophrenia can't use the defense successfully because of how narrowly worded the laws on the books are.

Yeah, which sucks for the mentally ill people who would do better with help rather then being locked up for decades, making their condition worse if they even last, or being executed.

And I'm not saying anyone like Roof assuming he is all mentally ill should get away with it but certainly that should be a factor in their sentence, it shows they might not have been in complete control of their actions. A mentally ill person should be in a proper mental health facility where they can get the proper treatment and not strapped to some gurney in a shitty prison hospital or worse.

Personally I think Roof might have been crazy but don't believe that it was the primary factor in this. I think his mental state might have contributed to him doing this stupid, horrific, monstrous shit but he decided to do it with relatively clear mind. But thats just a gut feeling on my part, possibly a bit of dehumanization because of how much I abhor Roof both for his racism, his murders, and the fact I see too much of myself in him and so I want to blame it on the person and not the disease. But I'm not a mental health professional, don't even play one on tv, nor do I know Roof, so what i believe might be bullshit (wouldn't be the first time, I once believed America wouldn't be insane or stupid enough to try to elect Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton, boy was a greatly mistaken). Why I'd want a full mental workup done on Roof, even just to see the mindset that allowed him to do what he did. Maybe find out better warning signs by viewing his history leading up to the attack, signs of radicalization, something positive to come from this horrific act.

Ignorance of severe mental illness is still very strong in the US. I had a friend that once argued that people aquitted based an insanity should be put in prison once mentally fit which makes zero sense because they were aquitted, as in found not guilty based on mental illness. It wasn't "found not guilty until they were mentally fit to be guilty". And he's a smart guy.

[Flagg]

He shot a load of people hoping to be martyred to start a race war?

Where is that listed in the DSM as a symptom of a recognized mental disorder?

Schizophrenic break from reality with delusions of grandeur.

Was he diagnosed with that? Not that it matters. As long as there is proof that he "knew right from wrong" he's getting a Draino shot.

[Joun_Lord]

Let's not scapegoat the mentally ill here. People do horrible things to each other without being insane all the time. In this case I think Dylan Roof was just a shit human with no empathy.

People usually don't do such a shitty thing without some sort of impetus. Its entirely possible he did it just for his loony ass race war bullshit but its also possible he did it because his grip with reality is quite lacking. Plenty of other racist dirtbags have similar wants of some "glorious" race war but few act on it. It seems to be mostly crazy ass fuckers like Charlie Manson and Roof.

Its not scapegoating the mentally ill to say sometimes mentally ill people will do illin' things. Not always, not even a majority of the mentally ill. But it can be an important factor in things like what Roof did, it can change the equation if he was mentally ill as opposed to just a massive racist douchebag.

Ignorance of severe mental illness is still very strong in the US. I had a friend that once argued that people aquitted based an insanity should be put in prison once mentally fit which makes zero sense because they were aquitted, as in found not guilty based on mental illness. It wasn't "found not guilty until they were mentally fit to be guilty". And he's a smart guy.

Unfortunately I think too many people think of mental illness as either a weakness, something that can be treated like any bump or bruise, or just fake shit. People are informed by tv, movies, and other portrayals of the mentally ill, especially in a legal setting. I'm sure it would be easy to find enough examples in movies and tv of some bad person trying to use the insanity plea to get off to fill my fingers and toes and start having to use other appendages. And just the portrayal of the mentally ill in general is terrible. They're portrayed as walking computers, time bombs, or worse.

I too have had the argument of locking someone up in a mental health facility until they are cured though usually its in regards to delaying a trial until a person is mentally fit to stand trial which has its own massive problems. The way your friend wants to do it sounds just plain terrible though.

[General Zod]

People usually don't do such a shitty thing without some sort of impetus. Its entirely possible he did it just for his loony ass race war bullshit but its also possible he did it because his grip with reality is quite lacking. Plenty of other racist dirtbags have similar wants of some "glorious" race war but few act on it. It seems to be mostly crazy ass fuckers like Charlie Manson and Roof.

Its not scapegoating the mentally ill to say sometimes mentally ill people will do illin' things. Not always, not even a majority of the mentally ill. But it can be an important factor in things like what Roof did, it can change the equation if he was mentally ill as opposed to just a massive racist douchebag.

Except there's no evidence that he was mentally ill, and there's plenty of reason to believe he was just a garbage human. I mean how many Christians have you heard say that they'd go around raping and killing people if they weren't worried about God keeping them in check?

[Joun_Lord]

Except there's no evidence that he was mentally ill, and there's plenty of reason to believe he was just a garbage human. I mean how many Christians have you heard say that they'd go around raping and killing people if they weren't worried about God keeping them in check?

There IS evidence in history that shows he might have been mentally ill. We don't know for certain because the psychological workup done on his was fast and sloppy.

Yes there are Christians (among others) who are only stopped from doing bad things because of their holey book and there are plenty who rape and murder and murder and rape because Gawd told them to. They have tend to have good reason, they tend to have people or organizations backing them. Very few Christians or whatever are just going to go rape some gay men straight (because there is nothing gay about fucking a guy in the pooper if done in the name of God apparently) or murder some black guys who might have looked at some white women alone, they are going to do so with their posse of pussies backing them or something else.

Roof was a lone guy, self radicalized, heavily fixated on bizarre beliefs as some people with extreme self-loathing, paranoia, and or depression sometimes will sometimes channel their problems into. He was an isolated 21-year-old who had a history of dropping out of high school (in the 10th grade), using drugs, withdrawing from friends and family, sleeping in his car and telling people that he intends to start a race war and then kill himself.

He does not sound like some tiny dicked Good Ol Boy or normal (if there is such a thing) racist moron.

[General Zod]

Except there's no evidence that he was mentally ill, and there's plenty of reason to believe he was just a garbage human. I mean how many Christians have you heard say that they'd go around raping and killing people if they weren't worried about God keeping them in check?

There IS evidence in history that shows he might have been mentally ill. We don't know for certain because the psychological workup done on his was fast and sloppy.

Yes there are Christians (among others) who are only stopped from doing bad things because of their holey book and there are plenty who rape and murder and murder and rape because Gawd told them to. They have tend to have good reason, they tend to have people or organizations backing them. Very few Christians or whatever are just going to go rape some gay men straight (because there is nothing gay about fucking a guy in the pooper if done in the name of God apparently) or murder some black guys who might have looked at some white women alone, they are going to do so with their posse of pussies backing them or something else.

Maybe not these days, but in the 50s it was pretty common for white guys to go around doing horrible things to black guys. I guess all the racist white guys in the 50s were mentally ill too?

[Flagg]

The problem with mental illness is that it can be very subjective and unlike a physical illness it can be faked by very good liars. You can also see 3 different doctors with the same degree and get 3 similar or even markedly different diagnoses. And for the mentally ill themselves (here! ) it can be hard to tell when you're suffering from its symptoms like getting more depressed, while other times it can be obvious like anxiety.

My problem with mental illness and the justice system is that it's all too often an all or nothing thing with no room for mitigation. Yeah, a schizophrenic may very well know the difference between right and wrong, but even though it's all in their head it can and does very often feel like an outside force telling you to do things you don't want to until you do them just wanting the torment to go away. Is this an excuse? Absolutely not, but it should be a mitigating factor when it comes to charges and sentencing. And 12 douchebags from off the street are so more often than not unable to understand mental illness and totally unqualified to make judgements when it's a factor.

And the fact that legally the definition of insanity (or as they call it now, "mental disease or defect") when it comes to a guilty/not guilty verdict is basically "did not know what they were doing was wrong" leaves the vast majority of mentally ill people whose illness may very well have been the dominant reason for the crime treated just like George the neighborhood watch captain who sneaks into women's houses while they are gone and takes pictures of himself wearing their lingerie while stroking his fully erect 2.5 inch "manhood".

[Joun_Lord]

Maybe not these days, but in the 50s it was pretty common for white guys to go around doing horrible things to black guys. I guess all the racist white guys in the 50s were mentally ill too?

They had friends, they had gangs of like minded individuals, police, society itself backing them even for the few who did things alone. Rarely can you find instances during the Civil Rights era and earlier of people (and I use that term so goddamn loosely it could pass itself off as a someone who got VERY intimate with a stallion) killing on their own. They are part of group, either for the killing itself or in general. Most of the worst deaths involving racism in the US involved two or more individuals, sometimes entire groups, doing the killing. One of the few killings involving just an individual was the death Medgar Evers by Byron De La Beckwith. Even then Beckwith was part of some racist group, was supported by others, even had a former governor shaking his hand during one his trials.

Roof had none of that, was just some guy not known to be part of any racist group, completely isolated and alone.

[General Zod]

Maybe not these days, but in the 50s it was pretty common for white guys to go around doing horrible things to black guys. I guess all the racist white guys in the 50s were mentally ill too?

They had friends, they had gangs of like minded individuals, police, society itself backing them even for the few who did things alone. Rarely can you find instances during the Civil Rights era and earlier of people (and I use that term so goddamn loosely it could pass itself off as a someone who got VERY intimate with a stallion) killing on their own. They are part of group, either for the killing itself or in general. Most of the worst deaths involving racism in the US involved two or more individuals, sometimes entire groups, doing the killing. One of the few killings involving just an individual was the death Medgar Evers by Byron De La Beckwith. Even then Beckwith was part of some racist group, was supported by others, even had a former governor shaking his hand during one his trials.

Roof had none of that, was just some guy not known to be part of any racist group, completely isolated and alone.

So basically you're defining mental illness based on social norms? Because that's the kind of argument people used against homosexuals for decades.

[Joun_Lord]

So basically you're defining mental illness based on social norms? Because that's the kind of argument people used against homosexuals for decades.

No. I'm defining mental illness by whether someone is doing something bananas on their own, with no cajoling or coercion, and having a history of symptoms that point to mental illness. People can go against societal norms, even do completely bananas things, without being mentally ill as they can do socially accepted acts of crazy shit without actually being crazy. The difference is how they did it and why and what their history is.

[General Zod]

People can go against societal norms, even do completely bananas things, without being mentally ill as they can do socially accepted acts of crazy shit without actually being crazy.

So basically exactly what I've been arguing?

[Joun_Lord]

So basically exactly what I've been arguing?

Yes but no. As I argued people can do crazy shit without being crazy but there are reasons for it, there are circumstances that lead to it, there is help in getting it done. Roof did something crazy but without those reasons.

My argument is that Roof might not be crazy but the argument can be made he is crazy far more then say Redneck Randy who with his drinkin' buddies decides to go and tie a black person to the bumper of their shitty pickup and drag them to death because of inadequacy issues. Randy does not have a history of mental illness, his actions do not come off as someone who is nutters, and he did it with others and crazy is not contagious....allegedly.

[General Zod]

It really sounds like you're splitting hairs.

[Flagg]

It really sounds like you're splitting hairs.

He's splitting hairs because what he's talking about are mitigating factors not necessarily the "get out of jail free" card that people think "not guilty due to insanity" or "temporary insanity" is (there can be restrictions put on people, like mandatory counseling/therapy and other things where basically until the judge is satisfied that you are no longer a threat to yourself and others you live a lot like a parolee long after being released from prison and sent home).

And someone found "not guilty due to mental disease and/or defect" can pretty much be locked up forever unless the doctor(s) and judge(s) deem you safe and you can have lifelong restrictions.

In fact many states are wiping their asses with the bill of rights and getting pedophiles and other sexual predators who are due for parole or release thrown into state mental institutes for all and intents and purposes, forever.

The fact is that when it comes to mental illness and the incarceration for profit criminal justice system, what's used is a sledgehammer and pickaxe when what's needed is a 5 inch thick Swiss Army knife with dozens of interchangeable and useful multipurpose instruments that goes for $300 at the mall (generally speaking). Most won't need to be incarcerated for life, and the ones that do are (or should be) afforded comforts not normally given to criminals because they've not been convicted of any crime.

[Dragon Angel]

Its not scapegoating the mentally ill to say sometimes mentally ill people will do illin' things. Not always, not even a majority of the mentally ill. But it can be an important factor in things like what Roof did, it can change the equation if he was mentally ill as opposed to just a massive racist douchebag.

It ends up targeting everyone who is mentally ill anyway because everyone who isn't thinks they're the best (armchair) psychologists capable of diagnosing the reals and the fakers and ignoring all sense of nuance. Even people who currently have a mental illness or have had one can fall into this trap.

Psychology is the one discipline nearly everyone on the planet thinks they are an expert in. It's not even comparable to people who think of themselves as Internet Lawyers or Internet Doctors. It pisses me off to no end because I live with someone who doesn't believe I have a mental illness even though a therapist has explained to her several times that I do. Try not to use the "mental illness" defense unless you can do a damn good job of proving it, because in the end you will harm the mentally ill if you're incompetent.

There IS evidence in history that shows he might have been mentally ill. We don't know for certain because the psychological workup done on his was fast and sloppy.

...

Roof was a lone guy, self radicalized, heavily fixated on bizarre beliefs as some people with extreme self-loathing, paranoia, and or depression sometimes will sometimes channel their problems into. He was an isolated 21-year-old who had a history of dropping out of high school (in the 10th grade), using drugs, withdrawing from friends and family, sleeping in his car and telling people that he intends to start a race war and then kill himself.

Like, here. Where is the proof of "we don't know for certain"? Citations? Because what you describe can be severe depression, but depression alone does not cause someone to go on a racist rampage. I mean, with the obvious exception of radicalization and racism, this could partially describe me too.

There has to already be a violent streak in a person to enable them to be mentally capable of causing violence. Especially violence on that scale.

[Flagg]

Let's play a game:

Roof was a lone guy,

: CHECK

self radicalized

If you consider political and social views compared to those of the people surrounding the subject compared to whom they grew up with, and narrow self radicalized into "differing beliefs of almost everyone around the subject": CHECK

heavily fixated on bizarre beliefs as some people with extreme self-loathing, paranoia, and or depression sometimes will sometimes channel their problems into. He was an isolated 21-year-old a largely isolated mid-20's individual who had a history of dropping out of high school (in the 10th 9th grade (but subject got a GED Score so high the subject got a diploma, just lacked the college credits), using drugs, withdrawing from friends and family, sleeping in his car and telling joking with people that he intends to start a race class war and then kill himself.

:CHECK

There has to already be a violent streak in a person to enable them to be mentally capable of causing violence. Especially violence on that scale.

: CHECK

Hi there, that's me.

[Joun_Lord]

It ends up targeting everyone who is mentally ill anyway because everyone who isn't thinks they're the best (armchair) psychologists capable of diagnosing the reals and the fakers and ignoring all sense of nuance. Even people who currently have a mental illness or have had one can fall into this trap.

Psychology is the one discipline nearly everyone on the planet thinks they are an expert in. It's not even comparable to people who think of themselves as Internet Lawyers or Internet Doctors. It pisses me off to no end because I live with someone who doesn't believe I have a mental illness even though a therapist has explained to her several times that I do. Try not to use the "mental illness" defense unless you can do a damn good job of proving it, because in the end you will harm the mentally ill if you're incompetent.

People already play Armchair Psychologists, people already think because they've seen the mentally ill on tv or because their cousin's uncle's best friend's roommate had PTSD from being in the Coast Guard they know when someone is or isn't mentally ill.

And I do want the mental illness defenses deployed only when its had a damn good job of being proven but I think it should go both ways, prove someone isn't loony in cases like this so heinous. Hence my concerns Roof wasn't given proper testing to see if he was mentally ill.

Like, here. Where is the proof of "we don't know for certain"? Citations? Because what you describe can be severe depression, but depression alone does not cause someone to go on a racist rampage. I mean, with the obvious exception of radicalization and racism, this could partially describe me too.

There has to already be a violent streak in a person to enable them to be mentally capable of causing violence. Especially violence on that scale.

Those things show don't know for certain, that was my problem. Roof had signs he might have been mentally ill, indicators, nothing concrete but stuff was there. Was he just depressed, did he have some mental illness, we don't know, he didn't get much testing done.

Like you, like Flagg, with the exception of the racism (though I am a radical dude) and the drugs (One thing I can say proudly I the only thing I abuse my body with is too much sugar, caffeine, and food plus the occasional knife, no drugs) this could pretty much describe me too. Like you I've had a therapist with framed degrees and everything tell me I have mental illness. One of the reasons that maybe I wonder if Roof also had some mental illness. I see entirely too much of myself in Roof, one of the many reasons I hate the guy which hopefully does not speak of my own feelings towards myself, and me playing Armchair Psychologist thinks that maybe the piece of shit might be more then just a normal piece of shit, maybe, just maybe, the fucker had something that caused him to do what he did beyond just being a piece of shit.

I don't know if he does but I think in the interest of justice it should be known. Thats what I've been harping on. Not saying that he is crazy but marely I think it might be possible.