Shooting at Quebec City Mosque

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

User avatar
Joun_Lord
Jedi Master
Posts: 1211
Joined: 2014-09-27 01:40am
Location: West by Golly Virginia

Re: Shooting at Quebec City Mosque

Post by Joun_Lord »

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Your whole "but both sides!" false equivalency seeks some kind of comfort zone in some perceived middle ground at the expense of avoiding the acknowledgement of how your local and national power structures (that disproportionately affect the rest of the world) are imbalanced and unjust and are mistreating lots of people.
No not really. My "but both sides" is just saying how both sides act like tools that hope and pray when bad shit goes down that its not their side that looks bad. That both sides engage in fear mongering and twisting of facts to try to fit their narrative. I'm not wanting to be fair or hear out either side, both sides are shitbags even when right, only are ever right by coincidence and just how much the human race sucks at times.

I didn't say anything about power structures or anything like that. I wasn't really even trying to aim for a middle ground beyond thinking both sides are assholes. Yeah maybe I am not willing to be partisan or not willing to pick a side but when one side is assholes blaming all of one group and the other are assholes blaming all of another I think thats a good thing.
User avatar
Shroom Man 777
FUCKING DICK-STABBER!
Posts: 21222
Joined: 2003-05-11 08:39am
Location: Bleeding breasts and stabbing dicks since 2003
Contact:

Re: Shooting at Quebec City Mosque

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Yes. Yes really.

Who are the "assholes"? The US left is nonexistent, neuthered and if you're equating a bunch of loudmouthed bloggers or social media personalities to the far-right wing militarized movement then I think it's a real false equivalency.

You have to base it on historical (or current) context and existing power structures and circumstances because otherwise you won't even get a proper definition to each "side" you are bemoaning and/or a proper assessment of the ramifications and impacts of each side's rhetoric.

There is causation for people's different kind of assholishness.

A militant edgelord smugtheist with a fucking fedora is a prick, the Dawkins' New Atheist pricks are pricks. But face it, these guys are nobodies, drops in the ocean with no influence at all and a lot of their angst and dickishness is because of the ridiculous fundamentalism of the mainstream society. So to equate their side as the same in weight as the other side, the "IN GAWD WE TRUST" megachurch-running televangelizing George Bush prayer meeting-ing mainstream fundies would be really preposterous and disoriented and ignorant of the chains of causation (in that the radicalness of the US militant atheist is very much due to the religious Puritanism of large swaths of US society).

Another example would be, bra-burning militant feminists might be assholes but FFS they're nowhere near positions of power and they're not the ones repealing profoundly important laws and policies in state and national levels.

You need grounding and orientation and basis. Words are wind.

EDIT:

And this also teeters on respectability politics.

If a group can afford to sound respectable and reasonable "oh let's be fair" in their rhetoric while actually advancing something insidious, while those taking the brunt of this are unheard and their frustrations lead them to adopt really caustic-sounding rhetoric precisely due to the systematic neglect and mistreatment they've faced... then what?

From where I come from and where I am, governments and paramilitaries have and still disappear outspoken students and activists. Marginalized sectors often have to resort to drastic measures. While those reaping the benefits from this can just wave their fans and go "ho-ho-ho" and wax on about what is beautiful.

Image
Image "DO YOU WORSHIP HOMOSEXUALS?" - Curtis Saxton (source)
shroom is a lovely boy and i wont hear a bad word against him - LUSY-CHAN!
Shit! Man, I didn't think of that! It took Shroom to properly interpret the screams of dying people :D - PeZook
Shroom, I read out the stuff you write about us. You are an endless supply of morale down here. :p - an OWS street medic
Pink Sugar Heart Attack!
User avatar
Flagg
CUNTS FOR EYES!
Posts: 12797
Joined: 2005-06-09 09:56pm
Location: Hell. In The Room Right Next to Reagan. He's Fucking Bonzo. No, wait... Bonzo's fucking HIM.

Re: Shooting at Quebec City Mosque

Post by Flagg »

Shroom, the saying I love the most is "Just because 2 sides of an argument are shouting at each other doesn't make them both wrong." Joun_Shitlord has South Park Golden Mean Disorder. I mean if they made a cartoon in the '40's regarding "the Jewish question", the end of the episode would have the Jews all sterilized and Hitler would pee on Cartman.
We pissing our pants yet?
-Negan

You got your shittin' pants on? Because you’re about to
Shit. Your. Pants!
-Negan

He who can,
does; he who cannot, teaches.
-George Bernard Shaw
User avatar
Coop D'etat
Jedi Knight
Posts: 713
Joined: 2007-02-23 01:38pm
Location: UBC Unincorporated land

Re: Shooting at Quebec City Mosque

Post by Coop D'etat »

Lets be clear here. Over the past day there has been mis-reporting on the nature of the attack in a manner which suggests a deliberate disregard for the truth in favour of an anti-Muslim narrative. Some have gone so far as to suggest there is a left-wing conspiracy between the Liberal government, local police and news media to surpress the guilt of the man mistakenly arrested.

While to a certain extent this is limited to the usual suspects of crank reactionary media, this behaviour has been reflected by more official sources. Like Fox News leaving up the posting that said it was a Moroccan who did it so long the Prime Minister's Office had to send them a letter to take it down. Or the White House Press Secretary implying it was an attack by a foreign Muslim to justify his President's dubiously legal visa ban.


There is a definate air of deliberate malice afoot to use whatever means practical to give people the impression that a Muslim did this to promote their own political narratives. And its hard to convey the depths of my disgust as a Canadian citizen that a tragedy in my country is being used to such henious purpose by foriegners.
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Shooting at Quebec City Mosque

Post by Simon_Jester »

Shroom Man 777 wrote:I don't think it has to do with the power being wielded by the "alpha" figure... it's more like just... a hesitancy to become partial to one side, even if one side is objectively more or less XYZ than the other.
That is certainly a real thing. I think it is also combined with the thing I was talking about, a deep primordial thing that is far down within human brains, when politics comes into it. Including office politics or personal politics.

It's what's going on in the head of every lickspittle and toady. And everyone who, while not part of a dictator's actual goon squads, does literally nothing about those goon squads, not even safe things, and will inform on their neighbors because the subversive threat of sabotage and traitors is very real, dontchaknow!
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
TithonusSyndrome
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2569
Joined: 2006-10-10 08:15pm
Location: The Money Store

Re: Shooting at Quebec City Mosque

Post by TithonusSyndrome »

For a racist shooting that's happened in Québec, this conversation has until been now been largely absent any discussion of the factors that are uniquely Québécois as far as racism goes. How many people here are aware, for instance, that in Québec blackface is still largely considered acceptable and funny? Or that laws meant to target Muslim women wearing headdresses can gain political currency as a sort of carryover from France? Who are you to say any of this is wrong, anyways, some Anglo prick out to assimilate la belle province?

I like Québec (okay, Montreal) a lot and I'm glad to live here, but the racism in this province is just... weird. Maybe idiosyncratic is a more clinical way of putting it, but the firsthand experience is just tres bizarre.
Image
User avatar
Shroom Man 777
FUCKING DICK-STABBER!
Posts: 21222
Joined: 2003-05-11 08:39am
Location: Bleeding breasts and stabbing dicks since 2003
Contact:

Re: Shooting at Quebec City Mosque

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

Simon_Jester wrote:
Shroom Man 777 wrote:I don't think it has to do with the power being wielded by the "alpha" figure... it's more like just... a hesitancy to become partial to one side, even if one side is objectively more or less XYZ than the other.
That is certainly a real thing. I think it is also combined with the thing I was talking about, a deep primordial thing that is far down within human brains, when politics comes into it. Including office politics or personal politics.

It's what's going on in the head of every lickspittle and toady. And everyone who, while not part of a dictator's actual goon squads, does literally nothing about those goon squads, not even safe things, and will inform on their neighbors because the subversive threat of sabotage and traitors is very real, dontchaknow!
Ah... I see, yes the outright bootlickers and folks with weirdass daddy issues and neuroses who automatically kowtow to powertripping authority figures whose paternalistic facades appeal to whatever fundamental deficiencies these brown-nosers had as children or something.

That's another thing. I do see this. Especially where I come from.

Whereas my spiel was about the moderates who Just Don't Know! Who have to be fair! Be polite and neutral! With their balanced perspectives! But they mean well, they promise!

As MLK said:

"First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season."

Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."
Image "DO YOU WORSHIP HOMOSEXUALS?" - Curtis Saxton (source)
shroom is a lovely boy and i wont hear a bad word against him - LUSY-CHAN!
Shit! Man, I didn't think of that! It took Shroom to properly interpret the screams of dying people :D - PeZook
Shroom, I read out the stuff you write about us. You are an endless supply of morale down here. :p - an OWS street medic
Pink Sugar Heart Attack!
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Shooting at Quebec City Mosque

Post by Simon_Jester »

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Ah... I see, yes the outright bootlickers and folks with weirdass daddy issues and neuroses who automatically kowtow to powertripping authority figures whose paternalistic facades appeal to whatever fundamental deficiencies these brown-nosers had as children or something.

That's another thing. I do see this. Especially where I come from.

Whereas my spiel was about the moderates who Just Don't Know! Who have to be fair! Be polite and neutral! With their balanced perspectives! But they mean well, they promise!
I honestly think that these Just Don't Know moderates are what you get when you take someone whose inner mentality is that of the bootlicker, and then give them the outright, overt knowledge that the people with the boots are in the wrong, without making it totally obvious the boot people are going to come out on top.

Their cognitive dissonance hasn't wiped out their instinctive impulse to lick boots, but it also hasn't wiped out their awareness that the boot people are in the wrong and may very well lose.

So it's like, they haven't actually abandoned their belief that XYZ is wrong, but they're thinking: "Wow the boots of the XYZ people look tasty... Dammit, I would never lick their boots because XYZ is wrong! But, uh... I guess I can see the XYZ people's point of view, and some of the anti-XYZ protestors are kind of obnoxious."

They're... bootcurious. :D
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Shroom Man 777
FUCKING DICK-STABBER!
Posts: 21222
Joined: 2003-05-11 08:39am
Location: Bleeding breasts and stabbing dicks since 2003
Contact:

Re: Shooting at Quebec City Mosque

Post by Shroom Man 777 »

You're probably right which is why I loathe those types.
Image "DO YOU WORSHIP HOMOSEXUALS?" - Curtis Saxton (source)
shroom is a lovely boy and i wont hear a bad word against him - LUSY-CHAN!
Shit! Man, I didn't think of that! It took Shroom to properly interpret the screams of dying people :D - PeZook
Shroom, I read out the stuff you write about us. You are an endless supply of morale down here. :p - an OWS street medic
Pink Sugar Heart Attack!
User avatar
Flagg
CUNTS FOR EYES!
Posts: 12797
Joined: 2005-06-09 09:56pm
Location: Hell. In The Room Right Next to Reagan. He's Fucking Bonzo. No, wait... Bonzo's fucking HIM.

Re: Shooting at Quebec City Mosque

Post by Flagg »

Simon_Jester wrote:
Shroom Man 777 wrote:I don't think it has to do with the power being wielded by the "alpha" figure... it's more like just... a hesitancy to become partial to one side, even if one side is objectively more or less XYZ than the other.
That is certainly a real thing. I think it is also combined with the thing I was talking about, a deep primordial thing that is far down within human brains, when politics comes into it. Including office politics or personal politics.

It's what's going on in the head of every lickspittle and toady. And everyone who, while not part of a dictator's actual goon squads, does literally nothing about those goon squads, not even safe things, and will inform on their neighbors because the subversive threat of sabotage and traitors is very real, dontchaknow!
You're talking about the "reptile brain". When you strip everything down to almost survival instincts, which in far too much of the human race means xenophobia, fight or flight, and tribalism in the extreme with no rational or critical thinking.
We pissing our pants yet?
-Negan

You got your shittin' pants on? Because you’re about to
Shit. Your. Pants!
-Negan

He who can,
does; he who cannot, teaches.
-George Bernard Shaw
User avatar
Flagg
CUNTS FOR EYES!
Posts: 12797
Joined: 2005-06-09 09:56pm
Location: Hell. In The Room Right Next to Reagan. He's Fucking Bonzo. No, wait... Bonzo's fucking HIM.

Re: Shooting at Quebec City Mosque

Post by Flagg »

TithonusSyndrome wrote:For a racist shooting that's happened in Québec, this conversation has until been now been largely absent any discussion of the factors that are uniquely Québécois as far as racism goes. How many people here are aware, for instance, that in Québec blackface is still largely considered acceptable and funny? Or that laws meant to target Muslim women wearing headdresses can gain political currency as a sort of carryover from France? Who are you to say any of this is wrong, anyways, some Anglo prick out to assimilate la belle province?

I like Québec (okay, Montreal) a lot and I'm glad to live here, but the racism in this province is just... weird. Maybe idiosyncratic is a more clinical way of putting it, but the firsthand experience is just tres bizarre.
That doesn't shock me given that when I worked in security there was an old guy who was from Maine right up a cunthair away from the Canukistani border (which at times decades ago I guess barely existed as a real boundary) and spoke French as his first language and he was racist as shit.

What surprised me is that it even happened in Canada. I know there are guns up there and everything, but every time some loon/racist/racist loon goes on a shooting spree in 'Murka, Canadians (one in particular :wink: ) are some of the first to talk about how that never happens there. I guess this is the exception that proves the rule, at least I hope so. Weighing the possibility of getting shot like a fish in a barrel when deciding whether or not to go to the movies isn't exactly fun.
We pissing our pants yet?
-Negan

You got your shittin' pants on? Because you’re about to
Shit. Your. Pants!
-Negan

He who can,
does; he who cannot, teaches.
-George Bernard Shaw
User avatar
Flagg
CUNTS FOR EYES!
Posts: 12797
Joined: 2005-06-09 09:56pm
Location: Hell. In The Room Right Next to Reagan. He's Fucking Bonzo. No, wait... Bonzo's fucking HIM.

Re: Shooting at Quebec City Mosque

Post by Flagg »

Simon_Jester wrote:
Shroom Man 777 wrote:Ah... I see, yes the outright bootlickers and folks with weirdass daddy issues and neuroses who automatically kowtow to powertripping authority figures whose paternalistic facades appeal to whatever fundamental deficiencies these brown-nosers had as children or something.

That's another thing. I do see this. Especially where I come from.

Whereas my spiel was about the moderates who Just Don't Know! Who have to be fair! Be polite and neutral! With their balanced perspectives! But they mean well, they promise!
I honestly think that these Just Don't Know moderates are what you get when you take someone whose inner mentality is that of the bootlicker, and then give them the outright, overt knowledge that the people with the boots are in the wrong, without making it totally obvious the boot people are going to come out on top.

Their cognitive dissonance hasn't wiped out their instinctive impulse to lick boots, but it also hasn't wiped out their awareness that the boot people are in the wrong and may very well lose.

So it's like, they haven't actually abandoned their belief that XYZ is wrong, but they're thinking: "Wow the boots of the XYZ people look tasty... Dammit, I would never lick their boots because XYZ is wrong! But, uh... I guess I can see the XYZ people's point of view, and some of the anti-XYZ protestors are kind of obnoxious."
Yeah. The great washed masses. That's what a huge minority being fat and happy while a smaller minority is starving and getting shot in the face with rubber bullets or beanbag rounds results in.

The greatest example would be the reaction when the Abu Ghraib pictures came out. There was almost universal outrage, which you would expect. But for a huge number of people it was not at the actions of the soldiers and the disgusting abuse of prisoners (which should have resulted in prison sentences so long the fuckers who ordered it and the fuckers who carried it out would leave prison in wheelchairs, but you know, land of the hypocrite), but that the pictures and abuse were made public at all. The favorite argument IIRC was that it would "endanger the soldiers" (because a full blown insurgency and roadside bombings were a picnic) but anyone with a brain knows it was that they didn't want to believe America could ever do anything wrong and when presented with irrefutable evidence of American wrongdoing they went all Doctor Zaius from 'Planet of the Apes'.
They're... bootcurious. :D
Oh my. :lol:
We pissing our pants yet?
-Negan

You got your shittin' pants on? Because you’re about to
Shit. Your. Pants!
-Negan

He who can,
does; he who cannot, teaches.
-George Bernard Shaw
User avatar
Coop D'etat
Jedi Knight
Posts: 713
Joined: 2007-02-23 01:38pm
Location: UBC Unincorporated land

Re: Shooting at Quebec City Mosque

Post by Coop D'etat »

TithonusSyndrome wrote:For a racist shooting that's happened in Québec, this conversation has until been now been largely absent any discussion of the factors that are uniquely Québécois as far as racism goes. How many people here are aware, for instance, that in Québec blackface is still largely considered acceptable and funny? Or that laws meant to target Muslim women wearing headdresses can gain political currency as a sort of carryover from France? Who are you to say any of this is wrong, anyways, some Anglo prick out to assimilate la belle province?

I like Québec (okay, Montreal) a lot and I'm glad to live here, but the racism in this province is just... weird. Maybe idiosyncratic is a more clinical way of putting it, but the firsthand experience is just tres bizarre.
Idiosynicratic is a good place to start with it. Like the guy above talking about how this wasn't a Canadian redneck equivalent. That's thinking of Quebec cultural politics in Anglosphere terms and expect them to be similar and they aren't. Which kind of cultural or political attitude correlates with another attitude doesn't work in they way you'd expect on America, British or English Canadian terms. Unique language poltics, which are related to but somewhat distinguishable from ethno-nationalist politics and the relationship.

So as far as this particular situation goes, the really intense Quebec enthno-nationalists tend to be from suburban Montreal or Quebec city, who have some exposure to people not like them and get offended by their proximity. While the guys out in the sticks tend to be plenty xenophobic, but their lives are so unperturbed by anyone not like them that the don't tend to get really extreme about it.
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Shooting at Quebec City Mosque

Post by Simon_Jester »

Flagg wrote:You're talking about the "reptile brain". When you strip everything down to almost survival instincts, which in far too much of the human race means xenophobia, fight or flight, and tribalism in the extreme with no rational or critical thinking.
No, I'm not. I'm sorry to be pedantic, but I said what I said for a reason.

Concepts like "identify the dominant member of a tribal group and lick their boots" are far too complicated for lizards. They are traits of the monkey brain, the ape-brain, the behavior of our relatively recent simian ancestors.

You see lizard-brain reactions when people are more directly threatened. And sometimes not even then, because the monkey brain can still be in the driver's seat at such time, still reacting to imminent physical danger as if it were really just a threat to their social status that can be resolved by posturing and shouting.

The lizard brain is, oddly, too stupid to engage in tribalism, because it has no concept of 'tribe' or society. This is why there's basically no such thing as a pack-hunting lizard.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
madd0ct0r
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6259
Joined: 2008-03-14 07:47am

Re: Shooting at Quebec City Mosque

Post by madd0ct0r »

It's a diversion, but tempted to ask al to weigh in on that.
Alyrium Denryle wrote: i summon thee. Is simon jester correct re pack hunting lizards?
Let's see if this abuse of the notifications works.
"Aid, trade, green technology and peace." - Hans Rosling.
"Welcome to SDN, where we can't see the forest because walking into trees repeatedly feels good, bro." - Mr Coffee
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: Shooting at Quebec City Mosque

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

madd0ct0r wrote:It's a diversion, but tempted to ask al to weigh in on that.
Alyrium Denryle wrote: i summon thee. Is simon jester correct re pack hunting lizards?
Let's see if this abuse of the notifications works.
More or less. Some of the really really smart reptiles can kinda cooperate or at least seem to do so for short periods of time and form pecking orders based on size, but that is about as complicated as it gets. "That other lizard is bigger than me-->Get out of the way" and "Food is highly abundant-->competition irrelevant" is about as complicated as it gets.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
madd0ct0r
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6259
Joined: 2008-03-14 07:47am

Re: Shooting at Quebec City Mosque

Post by madd0ct0r »

Query conceded :)
"Aid, trade, green technology and peace." - Hans Rosling.
"Welcome to SDN, where we can't see the forest because walking into trees repeatedly feels good, bro." - Mr Coffee
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: Shooting at Quebec City Mosque

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

madd0ct0r wrote:Query conceded :)
It is worth noting that... actual brains are Much Much Much more complicated than the typical Triune brain theory you find in any kind of pop psychology.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
madd0ct0r
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6259
Joined: 2008-03-14 07:47am

Re: Shooting at Quebec City Mosque

Post by madd0ct0r »

I thought I remembered a type of lizard that worked in brotherly pairs, but remembered that was about harems, not hunting.

And dinosaurs, but again that is pure conjecture
"Aid, trade, green technology and peace." - Hans Rosling.
"Welcome to SDN, where we can't see the forest because walking into trees repeatedly feels good, bro." - Mr Coffee
User avatar
jwl
Jedi Master
Posts: 1137
Joined: 2013-01-02 04:31pm

Re: Shooting at Quebec City Mosque

Post by jwl »

I think more of a lesson here is to not jump to conclusions until things are clear. Cosmicalstorm said it was an Islamic attack and subsequently looked like an idiot. But other people (not here) were automatically jumping to the conclusion that it was an alt-right guy inspired by trump. It's looking he is indeed is an alt-right guy, although the jury is out whether he was inspired by trump. However, this easily could not have been the case, and in that case they would have been the ones that look like idiots.

I have no idea where the refugee thing even came from though, there were no indication s of that as far as I know.
User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 21559
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Shooting at Quebec City Mosque

Post by The Romulan Republic »

The refugee thing probably came from the fever dreams of Alt. Rightists hoping for a guilty party that fit their agenda.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver

"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.

I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
User avatar
Flagg
CUNTS FOR EYES!
Posts: 12797
Joined: 2005-06-09 09:56pm
Location: Hell. In The Room Right Next to Reagan. He's Fucking Bonzo. No, wait... Bonzo's fucking HIM.

Re: Shooting at Quebec City Mosque

Post by Flagg »

Can we beat the shit out of people who use the term "Alt. Right" when talking about racist and Nazi shitheads? Nothing personal.
We pissing our pants yet?
-Negan

You got your shittin' pants on? Because you’re about to
Shit. Your. Pants!
-Negan

He who can,
does; he who cannot, teaches.
-George Bernard Shaw
User avatar
Flagg
CUNTS FOR EYES!
Posts: 12797
Joined: 2005-06-09 09:56pm
Location: Hell. In The Room Right Next to Reagan. He's Fucking Bonzo. No, wait... Bonzo's fucking HIM.

Re: Shooting at Quebec City Mosque

Post by Flagg »

Simon_Jester wrote:
Flagg wrote:You're talking about the "reptile brain". When you strip everything down to almost survival instincts, which in far too much of the human race means xenophobia, fight or flight, and tribalism in the extreme with no rational or critical thinking.
No, I'm not. I'm sorry to be pedantic, but I said what I said for a reason.

Concepts like "identify the dominant member of a tribal group and lick their boots" are far too complicated for lizards. They are traits of the monkey brain, the ape-brain, the behavior of our relatively recent simian ancestors.

You see lizard-brain reactions when people are more directly threatened. And sometimes not even then, because the monkey brain can still be in the driver's seat at such time, still reacting to imminent physical danger as if it were really just a threat to their social status that can be resolved by posturing and shouting.

The lizard brain is, oddly, too stupid to engage in tribalism, because it has no concept of 'tribe' or society. This is why there's basically no such thing as a pack-hunting lizard.
Yeah, you're right.
We pissing our pants yet?
-Negan

You got your shittin' pants on? Because you’re about to
Shit. Your. Pants!
-Negan

He who can,
does; he who cannot, teaches.
-George Bernard Shaw
User avatar
Flagg
CUNTS FOR EYES!
Posts: 12797
Joined: 2005-06-09 09:56pm
Location: Hell. In The Room Right Next to Reagan. He's Fucking Bonzo. No, wait... Bonzo's fucking HIM.

Re: Shooting at Quebec City Mosque

Post by Flagg »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
madd0ct0r wrote:It's a diversion, but tempted to ask al to weigh in on that.
Alyrium Denryle wrote: i summon thee. Is simon jester correct re pack hunting lizards?
Let's see if this abuse of the notifications works.
More or less. Some of the really really smart reptiles can kinda cooperate or at least seem to do so for short periods of time and form pecking orders based on size, but that is about as complicated as it gets. "That other lizard is bigger than me-->Get out of the way" and "Food is highly abundant-->competition irrelevant" is about as complicated as it gets.
Alligators and crocodiles kind of help each other (while helping themselves) tear apart larger prey by holding it in place while the other does the "death roll". But yeah, my being nervous about today's dental surgeon appointment ripping out all the teeth on the right side of my mouth kinda went "Mr knowitall" and shit.
We pissing our pants yet?
-Negan

You got your shittin' pants on? Because you’re about to
Shit. Your. Pants!
-Negan

He who can,
does; he who cannot, teaches.
-George Bernard Shaw
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Shooting at Quebec City Mosque

Post by Simon_Jester »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
madd0ct0r wrote:Query conceded :)
It is worth noting that... actual brains are Much Much Much more complicated than the typical Triune brain theory you find in any kind of pop psychology.
Yes, but it is an extremely useful metaphor for comprehending psychology on the pop level. And the pop level is just about all most people can afford, since we can't spend years picking up a psych degree, let alone a graduate education in neurobiology.

It's sort of like the "id, ego, superego" triad. Gross oversimplification, but useful. Because it conveys the important concept that the brain is not a single united whole in which all the parts work together rationally to achieve a shared goal. It's a collection of parts that work together, yes. Works surprisingly well, even, for a watch built by a blind deaf-mute watchmaker. But since it's an evolved mechanism and not a planned mechanism, the parts can easily work at cross purposes.

And that's not something that aligns with our intuitive understanding of the brain, because we intuit ourselves as being unified, singular wholes. So it is urgently needed, when trying to get a bit of enlightenment into people's minds, to have ready, straightforward 'toy models' that portray the brain as a collection of interlocking parts that can work at cross purposes. Even if the parts of the model don't correspond perfectly to the parts of the real brain.

This is arguably why Freud counts as a great psychologist despite most of his theories being garbage- because he popularized the idea of a subconscious, distinct from the conscious mind. Which incidentally opens the door to the entire concept of even having mental health care. If you don't believe in a subconscious, you believe that everything a person does, they decided to do. In which case the correct response is to be judgmental and push them away from you if they do things that are noxious. Only when you can accept that a person can have subconscious motives and assumptions, things that can be 'worked on' but which do not necessarily reflect on a person's moral worth as such, does it start making sense to have psychiatric care.
jwl wrote:I think more of a lesson here is to not jump to conclusions until things are clear. Cosmicalstorm said it was an Islamic attack and subsequently looked like an idiot. But other people (not here) were automatically jumping to the conclusion that it was an alt-right guy inspired by trump. It's looking he is indeed is an alt-right guy, although the jury is out whether he was inspired by trump. However, this easily could not have been the case, and in that case they would have been the ones that look like idiots.
If it turns out to be a right wing nut not directly inspired by Trump, the leftists who said "right wing nut inspired by Trump" come out looking a little stupid.

If it turns out to not even be a Muslim guy, let alone a refugee, the rightists who said "Muslim refugee" should come out looking very, very stupid.

Being wrong about details of a person's motives is much different from being actively delusional about their identity.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
Post Reply