Grenfell Tower Block Fire in London

[Isolder74]

Back when I worked in the Chicago skyscrapers the policy was to evacuate the floor with a fire and the floors above and below, everyone else stay put. But those were buildings up to code, fully equipped with sprinklers, with fire doors and other fire barriers incorporated into the structure, and with multiple emergency stairwells. It was also for initial action, you needed to be ready to move and evacuate further - a lot of it concerned how to empty a building with 20, 40, 60, even 100 levels in an orderly manner (The Sears/Willis Tower is 110 stories tall and the base occupies and entire city block. Fire drills, never mind actual evacuation, can involve more than 20,000 people)

A lot depends on the materials and even construction techniques used, the number of emergency stairs, whether or not there are sprinklers, whether or not fire drills are conducted, and so forth.

But yeah, if you have a building with a history of problems/violations you have to be suspicious. It also looks like the cladding burned which is odd to my Chicago-trained mind - our exteriors on buildings that tall are metal, concrete, glass... stuff that doesn't burn easily. Wood is a fine building material but not good for all applications. Residents report that the fire extinguishers were past due on safety inspections.

It's tragic, it's horrifying, and I hope those injured can recover.

Let's not forget that Chicago has some of the strictest fire codes almost anywhere. Based on what I've read about this building it wouldn't have passed there even in the slightest. Chicago takes fire safety very seriously.

Looking at the building in London, it seems everything about it is a red flag, the cladding, the fire escapes, and suppression systems are all inadequate for a building of this size. given it was recently remodeled that does mean that it supposedly passed the fire codes there which makes for a more scary questions. How many other deathtraps are there in London?

[Broomstick]

Let's not forget that Chicago has some of the strictest fire codes almost anywhere. Based on what I've read about this building it wouldn't have passed there even in the slightest. Chicago takes fire safety very seriously.

Yes, indeed it does. And that cultural attitude extends out into the nearby regions where, even if fire codes are not quite as strict as Chicago proper, they're still fairly strict.

That's why I asked the question about whether or not Grenfell was "public housing". I have some passing familiarity with Chicago's public housing which had problems of mismanagement, fraud, and so on, not to mention a shitload of crime. Chicago public housing "towers" were well known for being fucking ugly concrete blocks but damn they were fireproof - LOTS of apartment/flat fires over the years in Chicago public housing but they were restricted to the affected unit and, sometimes, those immediately adjacent had smoke/water damage.

Having lived in some, shall we say, less wealthy apartments in Chicago that were privately owned installation of external fire escapes for buildings with only one internal staircase has been mandatory even on century-old buildings.

From what I've read on-line, which may or may not be 100% accurate, the recent renovations on Grenfell seemed concerned with aesthetics, with making the building look nicer for the wealthier neighbors who had to look at it, rather than safety being paramount. Which is why the Chicago public housing always looked so goddamned fugly - safety (and low cost) were put before looks. There's a limit to what you can do to make concrete look "pretty", but concrete doesn't burn.

Looking at the building in London, it seems everything about it is a red flag, the cladding, the fire escapes, and suppression systems are all inadequate for a building of this size. given it was recently remodeled that does mean that it supposedly passed the fire codes there which makes for a more scary questions. How many other deathtraps are there in London?

Probably more than a handful.

One truism in Chicago is that fires are more likely during and just after a renovation/rehab. When inhabited buildings in Chicago wind up engulfed in flames it's almost always while work is being done on the structure.

[Hillary]

A friend of mine is mates with one of the fireman who attended. Although it's not been officially released, the firemen never made it beyond the 14th floor. 150 dead is what is being estimated; a third of them children. Secondhand information - but my friend is generally reliable and no sensationalist.

A Public Enquiry has been announced - which is no surprise. I hope its terms are extremely wide-ranging.

On the positive side of things - the public response has been extraordinary. London is being amazing - the relief centres were full of donations of clothes, toiletries, buggies, you name it. They had to ask for people to stop bringing stuff within 12 hours of the fire as they couldn't handle any more. Several people in my area (West London) were arranging collections of supplies and hiring cabs to take it there (at least one Uber driver refused to take money for the fare). Supermarkets were donating food. It's not going to bring back the dead but it's something.

[Dartzap]

There was a televised meeting with the Police and Fire service minister earlier, which Corbyn called for and attended. The enquiry will a fully powered, all evidence under oath, witnesses compelled to attend etc.

David Lammy was friends with some of the missing. He's unlikely to let anyone escape their responsibilities or liabilities.

[His Divine Shadow]

There was a televised meeting with the Police and Fire service minister earlier, which Corbyn called for and attended. The enquiry will a fully powered, all evidence under oath, witnesses compelled to attend etc.

It sounds like he's the guy in charge that people are looking to now.

[Sea Skimmer]

Let's not forget that Chicago has some of the strictest fire codes almost anywhere. Based on what I've read about this building it wouldn't have passed there even in the slightest. Chicago takes fire safety very seriously.

This building could not possibly have passed the British codes either, and we have ample reason to believe it would not and did not given the shit tenants were complaining about in 2013. I bet what will come back is that the fire inspection was like 30-60 minutes long, and basically involved kicking the fire doors and checking exit signs, but not anything more through. Or that no reinspection was ever conducted after remedial work was mandated, or the inspection took place during the original work and never came back, because what had been done to that point looked okay (people like to trust each other, stupid human nature). That's generally what comes up after fire disasters. Even century old fire codes, about when this became a serious and scientific topic, would have mandated features that wouldn't let a damn building burn up that fast. Be totally destroyed in a fire sure, but not a roman candle in 15 minutes.

The insane thing is the whole job has only become easier too, like for firestopping pipe runs you used to have to throughly trowel in concrete or resin fillers, now you can use a frigging can of spray foam to do that. Plug dozens of holes in minutes.

[Sea Skimmer]

A friend of mine is mates with one of the fireman who attended. Although it's not been officially released, the firemen never made it beyond the 14th floor. 150 dead is what is being estimated; a third of them children. Secondhand information - but my friend is generally reliable and no sensationalist.

The Met Police Commander, according to the BBC, just said he 'hopes the figures don't reach the triple digits' in an interview. So I'm afraid my gut feeling originally that 200 people burned up in this place are all too close to true.

[LadyTevar]

They're going in and putting up temporary supporting structures to keep the upper floors from collapsing as the investigation begins. They've already started bringing in dogs to help the search.

Also, Ramadan may have saved many of the people inside:

Residents have told of how they didn't hear alarms as the fire swept through the 24-storey tower block in West London. But they were instead alerted to the blaze by fellow residents, some of whom may have been Muslim people who were awake early in the morning because of Ramadan and were among the first to notice the fire.

The fire broke out not long after midnight and when many people living inside the tower block were asleep.
Muslims were among the first people on the scene as people were evacuated from Grenville Tower.

[Dartzap]

There was a segment on C4 news a short while ago, where Lilly Allan ( and indeed, Jon Snow) were saying the unoffical deathcount the police are working with is 150+

Baring in mind its unclear if firefighters managed to get beyond the 14th floor before being pushed back....I'm guessing it'll be higher.

This entire thing has left me with a cold anger. I work with people who live in similar housing projects, some of which are utterly abysmal, others brand spanking new. Yet again I shall have to explain the callousness of this government.

[Sea Skimmer]

Oh boy, the same contractor rebuilt four other towers nearby, and at least one of them has the same shelter in place bullshit posted on the walls according to a resident. They should be evacuated before a drunk terrorist smoker with a matchbook burns all of them by accident on his way to rent a truck.

[Sea Skimmer]

Seriously, whoever approved posting such signs should be arrested for criminal negligence out of hand. And if it was some group of building experts or whatever, so be it, they can all rot. I still cannot comprehend it. The captain of the Sewol spoke wrongly in a desperate situation, this was calculated in advance by people devoid of sense or reason. I was taught how to escape a fire very young in school, and by my parents at home, and what to do if you were trapped by one, stuff a towel or anything into the door ect... The notion that you would ever do anything but flee if you could is alien.

[Zaune]

Question:

My impression is that this is a UK form of what in the US we call public housing - is that correct? Owned by local government, housing not-so-wealthy people, possibly subsidized rent?

Well... yes and no. It does indeed house less than wealthy people receiving rent subsidies, but it's not actually owned by the council anymore. They sold it off (possibly not of their own volition) to a private "tenant management organisation" and are now renting it back from them. And since like most corporations these days the TMO is run by Business Studies graduates who know everything there is to know about maximising revenue but Sweet Fanny Adams about managing property (and probably don't care either, because where's a bunch of poor people going to get the money to sue them and make it stick?), any attempt at keeping the property safe and fit for human habitation is going to be the absolute bare minimum to comply with the letter of the law at best.

Oh, and guess which party voted against making it a legal requirement for residential property to meet the description "fit for human habitation" before it can be let? Apparently it would discourage investment in new residential property.

[AMX]

Skimmer, again:
If the building is actually designed for fire-safety, waiting in place is correct.
(Unless the fire is inside your own apartment, obviously. Or if you're in a place that doesn't have a proper fire brigade, I suppose.)
Because passing out from smoke inhalation and falling down the stairs is a thing that happens.

The problem is that they are applying that policy to buildings that are the exact opposite of fire-safe.


Also keep in mind that we're talking about a tower with a noticeable lack of alternative stairways - if there's a fire on a lower floor, you're almost guaranteed to be trapped. Telling people to try to flee through the fire would not help.

[Zaune]

Oh for fucksake seriously?

Footage has emerged showing Britain First leader Paul Golding baiting Muslims who were helping victims of the Grenfell Tower fire at the East London Mosque.

Mr Golding has claimed he was “abused” for “standing on a British pavement and filming” but a video posted on social media by the mosque contradicts his story.

The Britain First leader claimed he was surrounded by a “mob of Muslims and white liberals screaming abuse” and also suggested he was spat at and had things thrown at him.

Images posted by the East London Mosque however show Mr Golding holding up traffic and being intentionally provocative and show no evidence to corroborate his claims.

“This used to be our area, it will be our area once again,” Mr Golding is heard saying outside the mosque.

[Iroscato]

"Standing on a British pavement" as opposed to a fucking Siberian one. Troglodyte piece of shit has no shame.

[Broomstick]

Oh boy, the same contractor rebuilt four other towers nearby, and at least one of them has the same shelter in place bullshit posted on the walls according to a resident. They should be evacuated before a drunk terrorist smoker with a matchbook burns all of them by accident on his way to rent a truck.

Seriously, whoever approved posting such signs should be arrested for criminal negligence out of hand. And if it was some group of building experts or whatever, so be it, they can all rot. I still cannot comprehend it. The captain of the Sewol spoke wrongly in a desperate situation, this was calculated in advance by people devoid of sense or reason. I was taught how to escape a fire very young in school, and by my parents at home, and what to do if you were trapped by one, stuff a towel or anything into the door ect... The notion that you would ever do anything but flee if you could is alien.

Were you taught what to do in a high-rise fire?

Because that's often very different than what you do in a low rise building.

I worked the better part of two decades in Chicago high-rises, including some of that time on safety committees. It is difficult to evacuate such large buildings in an orderly manner, even fire drills require a lot of coordination. Such buildings are designed to resist the spread of fire so you can get people closest to the fire out first while it's safe for those on other floors to wait their turn, or wait in place while the fire department puts out the fire. It does no good to call for an evacuation that turns into a panic in a stairwell that then results in a crowd-crush disaster. I was present two fire drills in the Illinois Center (a complex extending from Michigan and Randolph streets to Michigan and Wacker Drive in Chicago) where people broke bones. That was in a drill, with the situation calm, the lighting adequate, the floor dry/debris free, and all the time in the world to deal with problems. All it takes is one slip on the stairs. Extrapolate this to an actual fire, with smoke and fear complicating matters. Crowd control is often overlooked but is deadly serious.

I think the new cladding will turn out to be a significant factor here. One reason that poor/public housing towers have a reputation for being fugly concrete is that concrete is a cheap way to build fire-resistant buildings. As I noted, in Chicago there have been a LOT of apartment fires in the public housing but the damage really was contained because no one stapled solid fuel to the outside of the building. There have been several instances of cladding fires in Dubai (November 2012 Tamweel tower, February 2015 Torch building, December 2015 Address Dubai Marina hotel) which, by some miracle did not result in mass deaths - maybe other aspects of the buildings' fire safety were up to modern codes.

Grenfell was a perfect storm of sorts - flammable materials used in renovation, inadequate in-building systems, and so on. The frightening thing is the possibility of similar recent renovations posing similar risks in other buildings.

[Vendetta]

Oh boy, the same contractor rebuilt four other towers nearby, and at least one of them has the same shelter in place bullshit posted on the walls according to a resident. They should be evacuated before a drunk terrorist smoker with a matchbook burns all of them by accident on his way to rent a truck.

Seriously, whoever approved posting such signs should be arrested for criminal negligence out of hand. And if it was some group of building experts or whatever, so be it, they can all rot. I still cannot comprehend it. The captain of the Sewol spoke wrongly in a desperate situation, this was calculated in advance by people devoid of sense or reason. I was taught how to escape a fire very young in school, and by my parents at home, and what to do if you were trapped by one, stuff a towel or anything into the door ect... The notion that you would ever do anything but flee if you could is alien.

Were you taught what to do in a high-rise fire?

Because that's often very different than what you do in a low rise building.

I worked the better part of two decades in Chicago high-rises, including some of that time on safety committees. It is difficult to evacuate such large buildings in an orderly manner, even fire drills require a lot of coordination. Such buildings are designed to resist the spread of fire so you can get people closest to the fire out first while it's safe for those on other floors to wait their turn, or wait in place while the fire department puts out the fire. It does no good to call for an evacuation that turns into a panic in a stairwell that then results in a crowd-crush disaster. I was present two fire drills in the Illinois Center (a complex extending from Michigan and Randolph streets to Michigan and Wacker Drive in Chicago) where people broke bones. That was in a drill, with the situation calm, the lighting adequate, the floor dry/debris free, and all the time in the world to deal with problems. All it takes is one slip on the stairs. Extrapolate this to an actual fire, with smoke and fear complicating matters. Crowd control is often overlooked but is deadly serious.

I think the new cladding will turn out to be a significant factor here. One reason that poor/public housing towers have a reputation for being fugly concrete is that concrete is a cheap way to build fire-resistant buildings. As I noted, in Chicago there have been a LOT of apartment fires in the public housing but the damage really was contained because no one stapled solid fuel to the outside of the building. There have been several instances of cladding fires in Dubai (November 2012 Tamweel tower, February 2015 Torch building, December 2015 Address Dubai Marina hotel) which, by some miracle did not result in mass deaths - maybe other aspects of the buildings' fire safety were up to modern codes.

Grenfell was a perfect storm of sorts - flammable materials used in renovation, inadequate in-building systems, and so on. The frightening thing is the possibility of similar recent renovations posing similar risks in other buildings.

As well as getting everyone out of the building safely a general evacuation in a high rise block of flats would cause serious problems for the fire service trying to reach the fire, as there would be 600 or so people milling around with nowhere to go and nobody to direct them.

Proper fire containment would have prevented this. Indeed the cladding used on the building would have been illegal on such a tall building in the US because it was too flammable. But the place was renovated on the cheap with more concern for aesthetic appeal than fire safety.

[Crazedwraith]

There's a protest going on at the local town hall/council office. Got quite rowdy st one point it seems.

[Hillary]

Oh boy, the same contractor rebuilt four other towers nearby, and at least one of them has the same shelter in place bullshit posted on the walls according to a resident. They should be evacuated before a drunk terrorist smoker with a matchbook burns all of them by accident on his way to rent a truck.

Yeah - speaking with an architect former colleague last night, he said much the same. With one exit, you could block the only means of escape with a truck as well.

On what level did wrapping a tower block in fossil fuel seem like a good idea? How is this even allowed. There's a protest at Kensington Town Hall which has just turned nasty. I've never known such anger across the board about anything.

[Broomstick]

On what level did wrapping a tower block in fossil fuel seem like a good idea?

Some people really, really want to save money... The burnable cladding is cheaper than the fire resistant cladding.

How is this even allowed

Budget cuts, reduction in inspections, alternations in code/laws to stop "hindering" business interests...

There is some question of just who decided to use the burnable cladding - when my contractor buddy heard about this he commented that he had received a notice within the past year that certain brands/types of cladding would need to be sampled and analyzed due to substitution/mislabeling of materials.

So...

- What this decision made by someone who doesn't understand construction or terminology or whatever mis-reading or not understanding material specs, basically saying "let's go with the cheaper option"?
- Was this decision made by someone who DID understand such things but was such an amoral greedy fuck he/she went ahead and wrapped a residential block in something so burnable?
- Was the proper material ordered, but did the manufacturer fuck up, or cheat?

I read something I have not been able confirm about the materials in question being a choice with a [brandname] PE or [brandname] FR - the "PE" being "polyethylene" and the "FR" being "fire resistant" which are abbreviations I've seen on this side of the pond, presumably they are not unknown in the UK. Which means, if this is true (and I have not confirmed this) the decision was either made by an ignorant/stupid person unfamiliar with the terms, unable to figure it out, and uncurious enough not to ask questions, or else if the person did know what those initials meat was a greedy sociopathic fuck.

[Vendetta]

Oh boy, the same contractor rebuilt four other towers nearby, and at least one of them has the same shelter in place bullshit posted on the walls according to a resident. They should be evacuated before a drunk terrorist smoker with a matchbook burns all of them by accident on his way to rent a truck.

Yeah - speaking with an architect former colleague last night, he said much the same. With one exit, you could block the only means of escape with a truck as well.

On what level did wrapping a tower block in fossil fuel seem like a good idea? How is this even allowed. There's a protest at Kensington Town Hall which has just turned nasty. I've never known such anger across the board about anything.

On the level of it being £2 cheaper per square metre.

The Maybot has avoided actually having to interact with humans regarding the disaster and her approach of only appearing in the most controlled and managed situations will likely be the straw that breaks the camels back for her as pm. This will hasten her exit.

[Zaune]

I just worked out the math; assuming the figure of 76 people missing presumed dead is the final death toll, they saved £65.79 (rounded to the nearest penny) per person burned or suffocated to death.

Tells you something about the value of human life according to Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation, doesn't it?

[Vendetta]

I read something I have not been able confirm about the materials in question being a choice with a [brandname] PE or [brandname] FR - the "PE" being "polyethylene" and the "FR" being "fire resistant" which are abbreviations I've seen on this side of the pond, presumably they are not unknown in the UK. Which means, if this is true (and I have not confirmed this) the decision was either made by an ignorant/stupid person unfamiliar with the terms, unable to figure it out, and uncurious enough not to ask questions, or else if the person did know what those initials meat was a greedy sociopathic fuck.

I suspect they knew exactly what they were buying. The supplier for the cladding has a fire resistant version. It's £2 per square metre more expensive.

Since it's not actually illegal to use the flammable cladding on high rise buildings the people who made the decision took the cheaper option and probably thought "it'll never happen".

[Hillary]

On what level did wrapping a tower block in fossil fuel seem like a good idea?

Some people really, really want to save money... The burnable cladding is cheaper than the fire resistant cladding.

How is this even allowed

Budget cuts, reduction in inspections, alternations in code/laws to stop "hindering" business interests...

There is some question of just who decided to use the burnable cladding - when my contractor buddy heard about this he commented that he had received a notice within the past year that certain brands/types of cladding would need to be sampled and analyzed due to substitution/mislabeling of materials.

So...

- What this decision made by someone who doesn't understand construction or terminology or whatever mis-reading or not understanding material specs, basically saying "let's go with the cheaper option"?
- Was this decision made by someone who DID understand such things but was such an amoral greedy fuck he/she went ahead and wrapped a residential block in something so burnable?
- Was the proper material ordered, but did the manufacturer fuck up, or cheat?

I read something I have not been able confirm about the materials in question being a choice with a [brandname] PE or [brandname] FR - the "PE" being "polyethylene" and the "FR" being "fire resistant" which are abbreviations I've seen on this side of the pond, presumably they are not unknown in the UK. Which means, if this is true (and I have not confirmed this) the decision was either made by an ignorant/stupid person unfamiliar with the terms, unable to figure it out, and uncurious enough not to ask questions, or else if the person did know what those initials meat was a greedy sociopathic fuck.

To be honest, it was kind of a rhetorical question - I know how it is allowed.

But, still, how the fuck IS this allowed? How have we, as a society, got ourselves into a situation where a human being has made a decision to wrap a residential tower block in a flammable material to save £5k. I've no doubt whoever made that decision is feeling like the biggest cunt who has ever lived - but we got to a mindset where NO ONE IN THE CHAIN OF COMMAND QUESTIONED THIS. That a decision like this was deemed to be an acceptable one. Something has to change after this - it really has to.

[Vendetta]

But, still, how the fuck IS this allowed? How have we, as a society, got ourselves into a situation where a human being has made a decision to wrap a residential tower block in a flammable material to save £5k

Because the fire safety regulation review after the Lakanal House fire where exactly the same thing happened (flammable cladding and lack of internal fireproofing caused fire to spread) has been sitting on the housing minister's desk since 2013 and hasn't been actioned.