Charlottesville: State of emergency over US far-right rally

[Patroklos]

You claimed the BLM demonstrations were riots, and dismissed the fact that even in the 60's there were bad actors who took advantage of the demonstration to, well, act badly, as "the lefty line".

Wishful thinking on your part. I said BLM rioters AND demonstrators, so clearly I could not be calling demonstrations rioters or I would have made no distinction.

I made no comment on the existence of bad actors in the 60s, so how exactly did I dismiss it?

This is where you provide quotes to back up your claims. Quote me saying exactly what you claim I did, or concede.

Now you're just moving the goalposts like the "righties" do constantly.

There were no original goal posts to move...

Are you arguing with yourself again?

[Broomstick]

Except when you have situations where the counter-protesters show up in greater numbers than the bigots. Except when they bigots put a toe over the line and get arrested and thrown in jail.

After all - if you allow Nazis and the KKK to hold a public gathering then you can't very well bar their opposition, can you?

Of course, I do recommend riot police on standby.

I wouldn't count on the cops honestly. There have been reports where cops were present and were seeing fights happen, but refused to intervene. The cops then only moved in once there were more counter protestors than Nazis.

Cops have also been historically more willing to give right wing groups like this leeway, and crack down on left wing groups like nothing else. As long as this bias exists, people will not trust them to keep the order.

Well, fuck, I guess we should just give up then, right? Is that what you're saying? Hey, wait, weren't you just condeming other people for that attitude?

Sad fact of reality: If you're going to stand up for a cause you do risk being hammered down. It's not right, it's not fair, it's not just but if you don't stand up then surely nothing will change.

Yeah, it sucks a bunch of people got run over by a car presumably driven by a Bad Guy, but it wasn't the police at fault. In 1970 a bunch of protesters at Kent State got shot dead by the fucking National Guard. In 1967 Detroit was occupied by Federal military troops, there were fucking TANKS rolling through an American city, and machine guns, and it still took the goddamned US military two days to end the riot.

Is this situation bad? Yes, yes it is. However, it is NOT as bad as the 1960's era. Back then we not only had riots resulting in death we had multiple assassinations of government and various social leaders. The young folks don't really get that because they don't have the visceral memories of actually living in those times, and most of them don't know their history really well. Not that the public schools ever did a particularly good job of teaching recent history, it usually takes a generation or two for events to filter into the curriculum, if it happens at all.

So yes, I am concerned, and I worry, but while things are bad they are far, far from as bad as they could be, or have been.

That said, even in the Sixties you could probably rely on the Executive branch and most of Congress to publically affirm that going so far as goosestepping, straight-armed salutes etc was a bit gauche. Even the Unamerican Activities Committee only disapproved of anti-fascism if you did it before it was cool.

Dude, at that time major federal office holders were open members of the clan. You paid way to much for those rose colored glasses.

^ This.

The "Dixiecrats" were campaigning openly for what we now call apartheid and winning. Governors of states were openly confronting Federal troops in the name of maintaining segregation and discrimination.

[Dragon Angel]

You know, this puffing up might make you feel good but is completely ineffective as a take down when none of what you accuse me of has been said.

Yo, you're the one who implied BLM as a movement officially endorses these riots. Work on your ability to write and try not to talk as if you're reading off Fox News if you don't want this to happen again.

Well, fuck, I guess we should just give up then, right? Is that what you're saying? Hey, wait, weren't you just condeming other people for that attitude?

What? You're putting words into my mouth. No, I'm saying believing the cops will sort things out is a naive statement. The playing field is not balanced because the actors who enforce the laws are biased toward one side, which is why people are beginning to believe even stronger resistance is necessary.

Sad fact of reality: If you're going to stand up for a cause you do risk being hammered down. It's not right, it's not fair, it's not just but if you don't stand up then surely nothing will change.

Yes, which is why I say people should continue to protest against these cretins? Why are we arguing about this?

Yeah, it sucks a bunch of people got run over by a car presumably driven by a Bad Guy, but it wasn't the police at fault. In 1970 a bunch of protesters at Kent State got shot dead by the fucking National Guard. In 1967 Detroit was occupied by Federal military troops, there were fucking TANKS rolling through an American city, and machine guns, and it still took the goddamned US military two days to end the riot.

Is this situation bad? Yes, yes it is. However, it is NOT as bad as the 1960's era. Back then we not only had riots resulting in death we had multiple assassinations of government and various social leaders. The young folks don't really get that because they don't have the visceral memories of actually living in those times, and most of them don't know their history really well. Not that the public schools ever did a particularly good job of teaching recent history, it usually takes a generation or two for events to filter into the curriculum, if it happens at all.

The "Dixiecrats" were campaigning openly for what we now call apartheid and winning. Governors of states were openly confronting Federal troops in the name of maintaining segregation and discrimination.

Right, the '60s were worse. This has already been established. I don't see how this is relevant to the discourse we are having.

That the '60s were worse does not mitigate or excuse the fact that far right wing demonstrations are ramping up to become nastier and nastier. My comment about people constantly saying that Nazis were being peaceful? This is something liberals have been crowing day in and out, believing that is what would continue to be the status quo. Non fucking stop. And now we have a situation people on the Left have predicted would happen for years.

The '60s being worse does not in any way matter to the fact that we are frogs in a pot of water slowly reaching a boiling point and I would rather you, Patroklos, and others drop that talking point because it is a distraction.

[Broomstick]

It's not a distraction.

The situation is going to get worse, not better.

We're going to swing back to where going to a protest means you have a real chance of being injured, maimed, or killed.

And you're correct, we are largely in agreement.

I get pissed off by young folks expecting it to be all peace and love and no harm done. It's not. You have two choices: you can have a non-violent protest, which will only be non-violent on one side at times and the non-violent people will sometimes get their asses kicked or even killed; or you can answer violence with violence, which risks escalating shit until you have actual goddamned soldiers marching down your streets.

It's that whole bit about freedom not being free and the tree of liberty needing to be occasionally watered by blood. There's a pernicious narrative that the peaceful folks and non-violent protesters won the day but that's not the truth, The truth is that for every Martin Luther King preaching the way of non-violence you had a Malcolm X standing up brandishing a gun swearing to use "any means necessary" to achieve his goals and scaring the living fucking shit out of the white people and oppressors. If you didn't have Malcolm X as the alternative MLK would not have succeeded.

Are you ready to face bullets and tanks? If you are, then you can get the job done. If you aren't, then maybe not.

[Patroklos]

Are we distracting you from hypervenilating? And no, I never said anything about BLM endorsing riots. Just because elements of a group engage in riots does not mean all or the official leadership of a group supports those actions (though they still have to deal with them). Even among the freaking Nazis at this rally, I highly doubt the majority support ramming cars into their detracts (should the perpetrator be one of theirs). Somehow I doubt you are going to give them the benefit of the doubt let alone EXPLICITLY SEPARATE THE TWO as I did with my BLM comment.

Portions of BLM torched Baltimore and Ferguson. If it helps you sleep at night to pretend there is some no true Scotsmen exception for your homies your delusions are your own. Adults are not required to maintain your childish fantasies.

[Dragon Angel]

It's not a distraction.

The situation is going to get worse, not better.

We're going to swing back to where going to a protest means you have a real chance of being injured, maimed, or killed.

And you're correct, we are largely in agreement.

I get pissed off by young folks expecting it to be all peace and love and no harm done. It's not. You have two choices: you can have a non-violent protest, which will only be non-violent on one side at times and the non-violent people will sometimes get their asses kicked or even killed; or you can answer violence with violence, which risks escalating shit until you have actual goddamned soldiers marching down your streets.

It's that whole bit about freedom not being free and the tree of liberty needing to be occasionally watered by blood. There's a pernicious narrative that the peaceful folks and non-violent protesters won the day but that's not the truth, The truth is that for every Martin Luther King preaching the way of non-violence you had a Malcolm X standing up brandishing a gun swearing to use "any means necessary" to achieve his goals and scaring the living fucking shit out of the white people and oppressors. If you didn't have Malcolm X as the alternative MLK would not have succeeded.

Are you ready to face bullets and tanks? If you are, then you can get the job done. If you aren't, then maybe not.

Alright yeah, we're good then. Sorry for the misunderstandings.

Are we distracting you from hypervenilating? And no, I never said anything about BLM endorsing riots. Just because elements of a group engage in riots does not mean all or the official leadership of a group supports those actions (though they still have to deal with them). Even among the freaking Nazis at this rally, I highly doubt the majority support ramming cars into their detracts (should the perpetrator be one of theirs). Somehow I doubt you are going to give them the benefit of the doubt let alone EXPLICITLY SEPARATE THE TWO as I did with my BLM comment.

"Even the riots/demonstrations of BLM" does not make it clear that you are separating the two. You also have a history of dropping by in threads and dropping in right wing talking points. If you don't expect people to read what you say as heavily tinted rightward, then you may want to check yourself.

Your little attempt to equate BLM and these Nazis is just ... what. How utterly laughable.

If there are Nazis who honestly believe their affiliations won't ever engage in violence like ramming cars ..... they should do some reading about the Brownshirts.

Portions of BLM torched Baltimore and Ferguson. If it helps you sleep at night to pretend there is some no true Scotsmen exception for your homies your delusions are your own. Adults are not required to maintain your childish fantasies.

My "homies" have denounced gratuitous torching of places such as Ferguson in previous, and there were many of my "homies" who actively worked to prevent people from looting and such in those protests. I'd like you to prove that it was exclusively portions of BLM aside from radical elements or third party actors. Otherwise, where you base this shit on has been very clear.

[Broomstick]

Trump really needs to say the words "domestic terrorism" in connection with the asshole in the car ramming the crowd.

[The Romulan Republic]

Trump really needs to say the words "domestic terrorism" in connection with the asshole in the car ramming the crowd.

Yes, but I doubt he will. Can't piss off the base.

His response was absolutely horrible. By employing the false equivalency narrative and blaming it on people on both sides, he is implicitly equating the white supremacists with their opponents, legitimizing them while giving a superficial appearance of being unbiased.

No doubt the Usual Suspects on the Right will continue to fervently insist that the Left is the source of all political violence in America, meanwhile.

And I thought I couldn't possibly hate the False Equivalency Meme in all its forms any more than I did.

Also, anyone else notice that the tactic of driving a vehicle into a crowd seems to be being increasingly adopted by the far Right? There was an anti-Muslim guy who did it outside a mosque in Britain not too long ago, as I recall, and now this. It looks like they're learning from their ISIS brethren.

[Zaune]

Besides, if Trump said that he'd be calling the Blues Brothers terrorists, and what would the evangelical pseudo-Christian wing of the GOP say about that? They were on a Mission from God.

(Better to laugh than to cry, right?)

[Joun_Lord]

Yes, but I doubt he will. Can't piss off the base.

His response was absolutely horrible. By employing the false equivalency narrative and blaming it on people on both sides, he is implicitly equating the white supremacists with their opponents, legitimizing them while giving a superficial appearance of being unbiased.

No doubt the Usual Suspects on the Right will continue to fervently insist that the Left is the source of all political violence in America, meanwhile.

And I thought I couldn't possibly hate the False Equivalency Meme in all its forms any more than I did.

Also, anyone else notice that the tactic of driving a vehicle into a crowd seems to be being increasingly adopted by the far Right? There was an anti-Muslim guy who did it outside a mosque in Britain not too long ago, as I recall, and now this. It looks like they're learning from their ISIS brethren.

While I don't disagree with you so much, especially Trump not even giving lip service to condemn these fucks, I do need to point out that it kinda IS both sides faults in alot of these situations. Its not like the White Turtle Power funky bunch rolls up and starts cracking skulls, violence at these rallies at best is mutual if not started by "antifa" agitators looking to crack some skin heads like the empty eggs they are. Sometimes its the fucking White Supremacist pieces of shit who are the victims. Members of the Left are just as willing to resort to violence as members of the Right, both sides have extremists. Whats that saying, takes two to tango, well it takes two groups to start some stupid as fuck violent political rally.

The Left is no more the source of all political violence then the Right but on both sides (you can debate which is worse) have violent elements willing to turn relatively peaceful rallies into violent melees. Both have people working towards escalating violence.

And we currently don't even know who or for what reason that person drove their car into the crowd. I'd bet money it was some idiot Neo-Nazi trying to escape to protect his lily white skin from being made black and blue but thats purely conjecture, we don't know yet so laying the blame on anyone from the Neo-Nazis to the Antifas to Ford Motor Company seems foolish at this current juncture in space and time.

[SolarpunkFan]

Not to excuse it, but do you honestly think thats anything new? Are you not aware that Neo-Nazis and White Supremacists have been out and goose stepping and waving their hand in the air like they just don't care to say "Howdy Hitler" has been going on for decades? Where you not aware of the very public American Nazi Party in the late 50s or the more recent National Socialist Movement that held rallies on the lawn of the US Capitol as late as 2008? Shitbags sucking Hitlers diseased prick going around in public proud of being the worst of humanity is definitely nothing new.

Yeah. I posted when I was in a bad mood. I really need to work on getting a grip.

I apologize for being emo... again.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yes, but I doubt he will. Can't piss off the base.

His response was absolutely horrible. By employing the false equivalency narrative and blaming it on people on both sides, he is implicitly equating the white supremacists with their opponents, legitimizing them while giving a superficial appearance of being unbiased.

No doubt the Usual Suspects on the Right will continue to fervently insist that the Left is the source of all political violence in America, meanwhile.

And I thought I couldn't possibly hate the False Equivalency Meme in all its forms any more than I did.

Also, anyone else notice that the tactic of driving a vehicle into a crowd seems to be being increasingly adopted by the far Right? There was an anti-Muslim guy who did it outside a mosque in Britain not too long ago, as I recall, and now this. It looks like they're learning from their ISIS brethren.

While I don't disagree with you so much, especially Trump not even giving lip service to condemn these fucks, I do need to point out that it kinda IS both sides faults in alot of these situations. Its not like the White Turtle Power funky bunch rolls up and starts cracking skulls, violence at these rallies at best is mutual if not started by "antifa" agitators looking to crack some skin heads like the empty eggs they are. Sometimes its the fucking White Supremacist pieces of shit who are the victims. Members of the Left are just as willing to resort to violence as members of the Right, both sides have extremists. Whats that saying, takes two to tango, well it takes two groups to start some stupid as fuck violent political rally.

The Left is no more the source of all political violence then the Right but on both sides (you can debate which is worse) have violent elements willing to turn relatively peaceful rallies into violent melees. Both have people working towards escalating violence.

And we currently don't even know who or for what reason that person drove their car into the crowd. I'd bet money it was some idiot Neo-Nazi trying to escape to protect his lily white skin from being made black and blue but thats purely conjecture, we don't know yet so laying the blame on anyone from the Neo-Nazis to the Antifas to Ford Motor Company seems foolish at this current juncture in space and time.

You're right that we don't know the motive, though given the context, its not hard to make an educated guess.

You are also, unfortunately, right that their is political violence and terrorism on the Left, and as I am sure you are aware, I do not condone it.

As to who "started it"... well, within the modern era, I would say that the current trend towards greater political violence and domestic terrorism was largely started by Right-wing extremists during the Clinton and Obama eras, but with some on the Left unfortunately deciding to respond in kind, which has occurred in growing numbers since Trump's candidacy took off. At least that's how I perceive things based on following the news over the last decade or so.

Within this particular case, the white supremacists are primarily at fault based on everything I've heard thus far, though I will acknowledge that that information is incomplete.

Damn it, United States of America, stop making me not look like a dangerous lunatic for wanting heavily armed and violent left-wing paramilitary militias to be a thing. I'm an ex-mental patient who made explicit threats of violence to get my mother and stepfather out of my life instead of a restraining order*, my deranged rambling is not supposed to sound reasonable and proportionate!

(Never let it be said that my many, many flaws include a lack of self-awareness.)

* In my defence, a) I had no money for a lawyer and almost certainly didn't qualify for legal aid and b) I had good reasons for wanting to see the back of them.

I understand that reaction, because I'm angry, and scared, and frustrated too, but, in addition to my long-standing moral objections, I really don't think that that's going to accomplish anything good. The Nazis are not going to be frightened into silence by the presence of Left-wing militias. They have their own militias that are itching for a fight. All it would mean is more street violence, more dead people, and more credibility for those who want to paint both sides as equally bad (see our Furher's statement) or blame the violence on the Left. Possibly even a pretext for Right-wing politicians and law enforcement to crack down on Left-wing organizations.

There's no point going that route unless you're ready and willing to fight a full civil war, and things are not yet bad enough yet for that to be the "lesser evil", nor do I believe that there is enough support for political violence on the Left to actually wage such a war.

Ideally, of course, this problem would be dealt with through law enforcement, and the declaration of a state of emergency, while alarming, gives me some hope that Virginia's governor and law enforcement are treating this with the seriousness it deserves. I'm also encouraged to see some Republican politicians at the national level, including Marco Rubio and Orin Hatch, demand that Trump call out the white supremacists and/or label this domestic terrorism. So maybe this is a wake up call for some people. We can hope so.

That said, the rise in political violence leads me to think that it wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea for the Democratic Party to begin setting aside funds to provide a higher level of armed private security for their events, properties, and candidates, to the extent permitted by law. This would be a prudent measure (since Congressmembers and state and local politicians do not get Secret Service protection, but are often subjected to threats- we had a thread not too long ago on a Democratic Congressional candidate who quit their race in part because of threats). It would also send a message that the Left will not take threats lying down, while remaining compliant with the law and avoiding the inherent drawbacks of militia- ie the tendency towards lack of training and discipline, lack of accountability, and above all the tendency to attract paranoid and trigger-happy people who are itching to start a fight, rather than deter one.

As a registered Democrat, I would be willing to donate money to help fund such a response, and I would be interested to here your's and other's thoughts on the workability, and ethics, of this idea. Though as its somewhat off-topic, I'll give its own thread if no one objects.

[Zaune]

Kid, if there was ever a damn good excuse for being emo it's watching a dollar-store Nuremburg Rally unfold in your country of origin.

And here's a rather good summation of the normal white person's view (I think being white and not buying into this crap is still normal, right?): My Fellow White Americans

These are images from Charlottesville, Virginia last night.

These are white people in their twenties and thirties. Like me.

These are people who are in my generation, the millennial generation, the one frequently lambasted for “participation trophies” and “needing safe spaces.”

These are people that look like my coworkers, my colleagues, my brothers, my cousins. People I know and love, who also have white skin and wear polo shirts.

These are people who, like I was, were raised on a diet of Sesame Street and Mr. Rodgers’ Neighborhood, which teaches tolerance and understanding of others. They’ve probably seen the Indiana Jones films, where punching Nazis is considered a virtuous act. These are my actual demographic peers in the United States of America, which means that these are people who sat through the unit on the second world war in their history class and looked at images of concentration camps and gas chambers and burning books and Anne Frank’s attic and still thought, well, hang on, maybe those Nazis had some interesting ideas.

These are people who chanted “Jew will not replace us.”

These are people who yelled “The heat here is nothing compared to what you’re going to get in the ovens.”

These are people who didn’t even bother to wear hoods.

What does it say that in 2017, I’m struck by the fact that the Ku Klux Klan members at least shielded their faces so that no one could identify them? That the same type of societal pressure apparently no longer exists today? That these people feel comfortable espousing the rhetoric of racist, genocidal maniacs in a public space that was widely photographed and broadcast?

My anger is bigger than my ability to write, but I’m going to try to say this as succinctly as I can.

White nationalism is morally indefensible. This is not a point that is up for discussion.

If you are willing to give these people the benefit of the doubt, you are complicit in the rhetoric of racists and bigots. Playing “devil’s advocate” is unacceptable.

I am not willing to listen to one more interview or read one more article about the “economic anxiety” of the American racist.

If you disagree with the central premise that white nationalism is evil and morally wrong, then I have no words for you. May God have mercy on your soul.

If you can identify that this is evil and wrong, ask yourself why these men (and more than a few women) are angry. Why? What has provoked these people to buy a bunch of Wal-Mart tiki torches and scream Nazi slogans at a Confederate statue?

Imagine for just one second that these protestors were black.

You want to tell me your problems with Colin Kaepernick and why you think Black Lives Matter is a racist slogan? I’m not interested. If you think that Philando Castille or Mike Brown could have just “handled it differently” and they wouldn’t have died? Imagine for one second that a mob of angry black people descended upon a public space with torches, screaming about wanting to kill those who didn’t look like them. Compare the crystal-clear images of these white men with the tear-gassed protestors from Ferguson.

This is a country where racists are empowered.

You failed to read all of those stories over the past five years from women on the internet, like Brianna Wu and Anita Sarkeesian and Lindy West? You thought those “feminists” were just “overreacting,” that there was no such thing as actual harassment from an internet troll, that their desire for online speech to have consequences when it devolved into doxxing and threats was a muzzle on free speech?

You still think that Hillary’s problems had nothing to do with the fact that she was a woman?

Welcome. This is a country where sexists are empowered. They’ve been on the internet terrorizing women for years. This is what they look like when they leave their computer screens behind.

I am no longer interested in anyone’s opinion that the Confederate Flag is merely a symbol of local heritage.

This is your heritage now.

I am no longer interested in your hot take on “economic anxiety.” On “giving President Trump a chance.” On “identity politics are ruining the country.” On “reverse racism.” On “all those swastikas drawn on buildings after the election were just put there by liberals trying to give conservatives a bad name.” I am no longer here for a peaceful discussion with the “other side,” when the “other side” believes that my inherent worth and humanity, and anyone else who doesn’t look or think similarly, deserves to be frightened, tortured, expelled, or harmed.

Women, people of color, religious and ethnic minorities, disabled people, gay people, trans people, and members of other marginalized groups in this country asked for their civil rights and their humanity to be respected. When you hear that the “left” are the “truly intolerant,” please remember that this is the face of the right today.

This is domestic terrorism. This is what it looks like.

I am no longer interested in anyone trying to tell me that being frightened of angry white men is ‘racist’ when angry white men commit the vast majority of violent crimes in our country.

At the time of publication, many hours after these incidents, the President of the United States had yet to condemn this behavior.* This is not surprising information to literally anyone who has spent a scintilla of time on the internet — in Reddit’s /theDonald, in Alex Jones’ InfoWars channel, in the comment section of Breitbart, in any number of places where the overlap between nationalist views, white supremacist views, misogynistic views, xenophobic views, homophobic views, and Donald Trump’s political agenda is less of a Venn Diagram and more of a circle. The President of the United States was elected by dog-whistling to these views.

KKK leader David Duke is currently in Charlottesville ebulliently giving interviews claiming that this rally “fulfills the promises of Donald Trump.” For once, I agree with David Duke about something.

This is the natural byproduct of a racist, sexist president. This is the legacy of a racist, sexist country.

My fellow white Americans, do you see it? Do you see it now?

There's too many photos to embed, but these are the most telling:

[Flagg]

You claimed the BLM demonstrations were riots, and dismissed the fact that even in the 60's there were bad actors who took advantage of the demonstration to, well, act badly, as "the lefty line".

Wishful thinking on your part. I said BLM rioters AND demonstrators, so clearly I could not be calling demonstrations rioters or I would have made no distinction.

I made no comment on the existence of bad actors in the 60s, so how exactly did I dismiss it?

This is where you provide quotes to back up your claims. Quote me saying exactly what you claim I did, or concede.

You just admitted that you called BLM "rioters". You based this on nothing. You've never actually provided any evidence that BLM rioted, as opposed to bad actors not affiliated with that organization. You just did your standard troll routine. So since YOU made the claim, the onus is on you. I'd love to see some. Of course you'll just reply with more definative statements with charged language because you want this thread to devolve into a name calling shitfest because it makes your homies look bad. Go back under your bridge.

Now you're just moving the goalposts like the "righties" do constantly.

There were no original goal posts to move...

Are you arguing with yourself again?

Maybe I jumped the gun on saying you moved the goalposts, because you are correct, you never really made any argument to begin with, just jumped in with your usual inflammatory bullshit. So do you have an argument to make or do you want to just fuck off?

[Flagg]

And why are we talking about BLM in this thread, anyway? They protest to stop the unending wave of police getting away with killing black people who are unarmed and posing no threat. If violence erupts, it's not good, but it's understandable given the situation.

The shitlords this thread is about are waving confederate battle and swatica flags and rioting based on a university removing the statue of a fucking traitor who fought for the right to keep the vile practice of slavery.

There is no comparison. One is a ticker tape parade and the other is the Bataan death march.

[ray245]

It's not a distraction.

The situation is going to get worse, not better.

We're going to swing back to where going to a protest means you have a real chance of being injured, maimed, or killed.

And you're correct, we are largely in agreement.

I get pissed off by young folks expecting it to be all peace and love and no harm done. It's not. You have two choices: you can have a non-violent protest, which will only be non-violent on one side at times and the non-violent people will sometimes get their asses kicked or even killed; or you can answer violence with violence, which risks escalating shit until you have actual goddamned soldiers marching down your streets.

It's that whole bit about freedom not being free and the tree of liberty needing to be occasionally watered by blood. There's a pernicious narrative that the peaceful folks and non-violent protesters won the day but that's not the truth, The truth is that for every Martin Luther King preaching the way of non-violence you had a Malcolm X standing up brandishing a gun swearing to use "any means necessary" to achieve his goals and scaring the living fucking shit out of the white people and oppressors. If you didn't have Malcolm X as the alternative MLK would not have succeeded.

Are you ready to face bullets and tanks? If you are, then you can get the job done. If you aren't, then maybe not.

What I am disappointed in the US is how easy it is for violence to break out as a result of a protest. For a nation in which democracy is meant to act as a valve to reduce the need for violence, it doesn't seem well equipped to handle such polarisation of society.

Obama tried to stake his presidency on his ability to bring Americans together, but he left the presidency with an American society just as divided as ever.

[Joun_Lord]

Yeah. I posted when I was in a bad mood. I really need to work on getting a grip.

I apologize for being emo... again.

Nothing to apologize about. This is VERY upsetting even for me who has an inkling of the history of the white supremacist movement. If you don't realize how active white supremacist groups have been through US history this image of goddamn goosestepping morons carrying tiki torches (something I'm sure the SPLC will label a symbol of hate soon) and doing their goosestepping down Main St America this can be an almost indescribable shock to the system.

I'd say do some research (some advice I should follow myself often enough) to put this event into historical context. Its not going to really take off the sting of seeing fucking goddamn human trash Nazis defending monuments to other goddamn human trash but it might give you an understanding of the ebb and flow of hate and how hate far greater then these dipshits went the way of the dodo.

You're right that we don't know the motive, though given the context, its not hard to make an educated guess.

You are also, unfortunately, right that their is political violence and terrorism on the Left, and as I am sure you are aware, I do not condone it.

As to who "started it"... well, within the modern era, I would say that the current trend towards greater political violence and domestic terrorism was largely started by Right-wing extremists during the Clinton and Obama eras, but with some on the Left unfortunately deciding to respond in kind, which has occurred in growing numbers since Trump's candidacy took off. At least that's how I perceive things based on following the news over the last decade or so.

Within this particular case, the white supremacists are primarily at fault based on everything I've heard thus far, though I will acknowledge that that information is incomplete.

Like I said, even I'm betting that it was some alt-right moron who did it and did it to hurt people but cannot be sure. Between the context (counter-protesters hurt) and my own biases (I hate fucking Nazis like my ass was red and I carry a giant revolver I can't hit the broad side of a barn with) I'm making an educated guess as to the perp but nothing based on anything solid.

I am aware you do not condone political violence, if nothing else we are in agreement on that.

There is certainly some blame that can be laid at the feet of the right and their willingness to go extreme any time a Democrat gets elected though you could also blame Dems for helping start people on the road to extremism by fucking with Constitutional rights and acting pretty damn criminal themselves in cases like the Waco BBQ and the Ruby Ridge turkey shoot. I'm sure there is probably something from the 80s causing Democrats to clamp the nuts of gun rights and nut cases, I remember that during the 80s crime was supposed to be sky high. Trying to find the root cause is important to solving the problem but also what is important is the violence in the here and now. And the here and now both sides are willing to escalate this war of words to a war of fists, bits of wood, and bike locks.

As for this case, I don't know whose primarily at fault. Certainly the blame can be laid on the shitbags white power cunts for showing up in the first place BUUUUTTTTT thats also a constitutionally protected right even for the reich. The real question is who started the violence which currently I don't have enough information and I don't know if enough information is available with much of it being he said she said bullshit blaming each other to make even an uneducated guess (my favorite kind of guesses) as to who lit the proverbial match setting off this powder keg of stupidity and violence and stupid violence.

Not going to lie though, I'd not be surprised if it should come to light Durr Furhrer's Fuckstains were the cause. But I'm also a bit biased and I'm totally 100 percent okay with that.

[ray245]

Kid, if there was ever a damn good excuse for being emo it's watching a dollar-store Nuremburg Rally unfold in your country of origin.

And here's a rather good summation of the normal white person's view (I think being white and not buying into this crap is still normal, right?): My Fellow White Americans

These are images from Charlottesville, Virginia last night.

These are white people in their twenties and thirties. Like me.

These are people who are in my generation, the millennial generation, the one frequently lambasted for “participation trophies” and “needing safe spaces.”

Yeah, this particular bit is quite disappointing to read. One would think that those that belong to the millennial generation would have been wiser, but there will always be a few that believe in that sort of things.

Nothing to apologize about. This is VERY upsetting even for me who has an inkling of the history of the white supremacist movement. If you don't realize how active white supremacist groups have been through US history this image of goddamn goosestepping morons carrying tiki torches (something I'm sure the SPLC will label a symbol of hate soon) and doing their goosestepping down Main St America this can be an almost indescribable shock to the system.

I'd say do some research (some advice I should follow myself often enough) to put this event into historical context. Its not going to really take off the sting of seeing fucking goddamn human trash Nazis defending monuments to other goddamn human trash but it might give you an understanding of the ebb and flow of hate and how hate far greater then these dipshits went the way of the dodo.

It does feel like white supremacists groups are remarkably persistent in the US. For an ideology that is supposedly discredited for a long time, it seems quite resilient in the US relative to other western liberal democracies.

[Joun_Lord]

It does feel like white supremacists groups are remarkably persistent in the US. For an ideology that is supposedly discredited for a long time, it seems quite resilient in the US relative to other western liberal democracies.

Neo-Nutzies and White Supremacists aren't exactly dead in Europe but I think (and this is conjecture) that they might be just more underground, Hipter Nazis if you will, thanks to far more restrictive laws pertaining towards free speech, hate speech, and anti-semitism. According to wiki, so take with a grain of salt, there are 26,000 right wing extremists including 6,000 Neo-Nazis just in Germany and thousands more in other countries. There are plenty of active hate groups, even some active in politics like the Golden Dawn. The largest Neo-Nazi group in the US numbers under 400 while most other groups membership is in the dozens. Both the SPLC and ADL say that the number of Neo-Nazis in the US is quite small though I'm having a hrad time tracking down any solid numbers. My point is atleast in the US our shitbags are quite a bit more vocal then the Europeon cousins.

Plus the US have never got an up close and personal taste of what facism really can do unlike all of Europe. Its easy for complete fucking idiots and misguided fools to believe Hitler was an okay guy and the Holocaust is a lie when they nor their families didn't experience it and its effects first hand. I certainly have some up close and personal experience with that mindset. Hell some of its even fairly innocent starting out, some younger people learning about the Holocaust have a bit of a short circuit trying to wrap their head around 6 million (12 million) people being murdered. The numbers are just so huge they almost seem impossible (what adds to the horror I think, those impossible numbers are so goddamn real), it seems like yet another fairy tale. And Nazism even now is still so very seductive, it was designed that way, like a long lingering poison it still infects people. The disbelief in the horrors perpetrated by that vile regime makes it easy for some to be seduced.

[ray245]

It does feel like white supremacists groups are remarkably persistent in the US. For an ideology that is supposedly discredited for a long time, it seems quite resilient in the US relative to other western liberal democracies.

Neo-Nutzies and White Supremacists aren't exactly dead in Europe but I think (and this is conjecture) that they might be just more underground, Hipter Nazis if you will, thanks to far more restrictive laws pertaining towards free speech, hate speech, and anti-semitism. According to wiki, so take with a grain of salt, there are 26,000 right wing extremists including 6,000 Neo-Nazis just in Germany and thousands more in other countries. There are plenty of active hate groups, even some active in politics like the Golden Dawn. The largest Neo-Nazi group in the US numbers under 400 while most other groups membership is in the dozens. Both the SPLC and ADL say that the number of Neo-Nazis in the US is quite small though I'm having a hrad time tracking down any solid numbers. My point is atleast in the US our shitbags are quite a bit more vocal then the Europeon cousins.

This is when I felt US laws on free speech is probably not as good as laws in Germany and etc in confronting hate speech. Extremist groups that cannot really appear in public are far weaker than those that can.

Plus the US have never got an up close and personal taste of what facism really can do unlike all of Europe. Its easy for complete fucking idiots and misguided fools to believe Hitler was an okay guy and the Holocaust is a lie when they nor their families didn't experience it and its effects first hand. I certainly have some up close and personal experience with that mindset. Hell some of its even fairly innocent starting out, some younger people learning about the Holocaust have a bit of a short circuit trying to wrap their head around 6 million (12 million) people being murdered. The numbers are just so huge they almost seem impossible (what adds to the horror I think, those impossible numbers are so goddamn real), it seems like yet another fairy tale. And Nazism even now is still so very seductive, it was designed that way, like a long lingering poison it still infects people. The disbelief in the horrors perpetrated by that vile regime makes it easy for some to be seduced.

True. There's a recent case of 2 Chinese guys being arrested in Germany for trying to do the Nazi salute at the Reichstag. And there's also the recent case of one Taiwanese High School that allows students to dress up as Nazis in a festival celebrating German culture.

[Flagg]

Joun, the "Waco BBQ"? Really?

Ruby Ridge was a totally fucked situation caused by the US Government. Despite Weaver being involved with illegally modified firearms. And it was also under the Administration of George H. W. Bush. No Democrats to blame for that, you ignoramus.

Waco wasn't even close. Those nut jobs were stockpiling illegally modified weapons and when the ATF launched a legal raid with a warrant to seize those weapons, they were met with fully automatic weapons. Koresh was a child molesting doomsday cult leader.
The federal authorities were extremely patient given that 4 ATF agents were murdered. When they finally decided that enough was enough, the Branch Davidians started those fires. We know this because there are recordings of them telling each other to start the fires.
The children "BBQ'd" as you so classily put it were murdered by Koresh and their parents, not Janet Reno.

And no, mister Golden Mean, there's no "middle ground."

[Joun_Lord]

This is when I felt US laws on free speech is probably not as good as laws in Germany and etc in confronting hate speech. Extremist groups that cannot really appear in public are far weaker than those that can.

I'd personally disagree with that. I believe (and this is just my opinion so clearly correct ) that US laws of free speech are excellent. Of course one might disagree because of the question on how free speech is covered. For me personally I think hate speech is still covered by free speech, I don't like how restrictive some Eurocommie laws are. My opinion isn't even born out of some semi noble goal of protecting all rights, its out of a selfish goal of protecting my own rights.

I believe when you start restricting speech as reprehensible, as socially okay to censor, it leaves the door open for your own speech to be restricted down the line. I like being able to say what I want, I like being able to proclaim that I support gun rights, gay marriage, legalized weed, stronger borders, and expanded socialist safety programs. Some of thats unpopular to say now, some unpopular to say in the past, some could be made illegal if religious fundies have their way. Protect all speech except for actual harmful speech (the "yelling fire in a crowded theater" kind and not the "my feelings were hurt" kind) and nobody is censored. But thats just my feelings on the matter.

I also feel driving hate groups underground gives them power, gives them free reign to grow and fester and takes people by surprise with their rhetoric and existence. A hate group in the light is going to be far weaker, their stupidity and cancer exposed for all to see, people will be educated on just what a reprehensible ideology they peddle.

True. There's a recent case of 2 Chinese guys being arrested in Germany for trying to do the Nazi salute at the Reichstag. And there's also the recent case of one Taiwanese High School that allows students to dress up as Nazis in a festival celebrating German culture.

Read aboot the Chinese tourists, didn't know about the Taiwanese skool. I supposed asia has some similarities to America for Nazism, never felt its bite. I do wonder if maybe there is a similar distaste and revulsion for the Empire of Japan in asia as there is the Nazis in Europe.

[The Romulan Republic]

And let's talk about what set this whole thing off for a moment, shall we?

Why the fuck does this country still have monuments on public property to people who committed treason against the United States? Because they committed treason in the name of subjugating black people and overturning an election they lost... sorry, "state's rights", and that makes it okay to Southern racists?

Every Confederate monument on public property should be taken down, and either put in a museum as an item of purely historical/archaeological value, or melted down and sold for scrap.

Then replaced with a statue to Honest Abe or a Union general.

[ray245]

I'd personally disagree with that. I believe (and this is just my opinion so clearly correct ) that US laws of free speech are excellent. Of course one might disagree because of the question on how free speech is covered. For me personally I think hate speech is still covered by free speech, I don't like how restrictive some Eurocommie laws are. My opinion isn't even born out of some semi noble goal of protecting all rights, its out of a selfish goal of protecting my own rights.

I believe when you start restricting speech as reprehensible, as socially okay to censor, it leaves the door open for your own speech to be restricted down the line. I like being able to say what I want, I like being able to proclaim that I support gun rights, gay marriage, legalized weed, stronger borders, and expanded socialist safety programs. Some of thats unpopular to say now, some unpopular to say in the past, some could be made illegal if religious fundies have their way. Protect all speech except for actual harmful speech (the "yelling fire in a crowded theater" kind and not the "my feelings were hurt" kind) and nobody is censored. But thats just my feelings on the matter.

I also feel driving hate groups underground gives them power, gives them free reign to grow and fester and takes people by surprise with their rhetoric and existence. A hate group in the light is going to be far weaker, their stupidity and cancer exposed for all to see, people will be educated on just what a reprehensible ideology they peddle.

Free speech is generally not curtailed in Europe even if they have stricter rules regulating hate speech. I think it is possible to have a clearer definition of what constitutes hate speech than the US approach. There's a difference between unpopular opinions and hate speech.

If the US public has no belief in the US police to ensure those hate groups don't impose physical harm to people and have to resort to physical counter-protest or even violence to confront these group, I think you are only going to end up embodying such groups for generations.

If years of constant exposure of far-right neo-nazi groups to the limelight doesn't stop such group from carrying out acts of violence and intimidation, I'm not sure what will.

Read aboot the Chinese tourists, didn't know about the Taiwanese skool. I supposed asia has some similarities to America for Nazism, never felt its bite. I do wonder if maybe there is a similar distaste and revulsion for the Empire of Japan in asia as there is the Nazis in Europe.

Nazis exist only in popular media for many people in Asia. They're probably akin to the Galactic empire to many people in Asia, aka "bad guys with cool uniforms".

[Broomstick]

If the US public has no belief in the US police to ensure those hate groups don't impose physical harm to people and have to resort to physical counter-protest or even violence to confront these group, I think you are only going to end up embodying such groups for generations.

Except, by and large, the public does have the belief the police will do something about those hate groups. In fact, they have - it is now very rare for these groups to act out and commit violent acts, that's why the Virginia rally is such an aberration.

If years of constant exposure of far-right neo-nazi groups to the limelight doesn't stop such group from carrying out acts of violence and intimidation, I'm not sure what will.

Acts of violence by the Nazis and KKK are far less common than they used to be. When I was a kid we still had cross-burnings and sunset towns. Now the town I live next to, once sunset town, is 30% black with a dash of hispanic and Asian. Cross burnings probably do still happen from time to time, but they are far, far less common than in the past and I haven't actually heard of one happening for a long, long time. These hate groups are, in fact, dying out.

The problem comes in when you have these public rallies, and to my mind it's obvious the hate groups came hoping for trouble. Clashes between the hate and counter-protesters is always a risk at these, although clashes don't always happen.

I don't feel a need to curtail free speech even with what happened yesterday. The problem yesterday wasn't words, it was acts, and the problem actions are already illegal.