Las Vegas Shooting

[SCRawl]

You're all arguing about the same thing. Stop it now, it's pointless.

So, yes, illegal weapons are illegal. There's almost no grey here; either this guy legitimately owned automatic weapons (in which case it means that he's gone through the most extensive background checks available to mankind) or he got them illegally. So this isn't a gun control issue.

You would think that if the authorities have their hands on these weapons it will become clear where they came from, and I'm interested in knowing that myself.

[TheFeniX]

The fact is: the both local and federal law enforcement have a very detailed picture of who owns controlled NFA weapons in this country. So there is more to this shooting than weak gun laws. There's a reason why criminals tend to avoid using Assault Rifles and other full-auto weapons: because it gets federal authorities involved as a matter of course.

Either way, some rando didn't get access to these weapons without someone else involved either intentionally or unintentionally. So, there's going to be Hell to pay and not in the Gun Control debate area.

The most mundane explanation is that he knew someone who legally owned a bunch of NFA weapons and stole them.
There's also the chance he stumbled upon the right people to get him illegal weapons.

Unfortunately, we're going to have to wait and let the ATF do their thing and hope they release what they find.

[Jub]

You're all arguing about the same thing. Stop it now, it's pointless.

So, yes, illegal weapons are illegal. There's almost no grey here; either this guy legitimately owned automatic weapons (in which case it means that he's gone through the most extensive background checks available to mankind) or he got them illegally. So this isn't a gun control issue.

You would think that if the authorities have their hands on these weapons it will become clear where they came from, and I'm interested in knowing that myself.

That's pretty America centric there qnd also completely untrue given that this is a gun control issue. Mass shootings aren't an issue north of the boarder and automatic weapon ownership is virtually non-existent outside of heirloom weapons that basically cannot be transfered. Saying that gun control doesn't factor in is patently false and, in this specific case, I dare somebody to claim that this attack would still have happened if the suspect had a knife/car/some other non-firearm means of attack.

[Flagg]

Yeah, this most certainly is a gun control issue since these guns were not controlled well enough so that a fucking lunatic couldn’t access them and kill an ever climbing number of people.

[Patroklos]

Do you have any evidence this came from some otherwise legal repository is of automatic weapons? No? Then climb of the pile of dead bodies you are preaching from for five minutes you morbid opportunistic fuck.

[LaCroix]

There is also the possibility that he converted semis to full auto. Which is just as illegal but a lot cheaper. It's hardly believable that he forked out 200 grand or more to get full autos with no one ever noticing. Having a bit of metalworking skills and tools and some cheap AR15's to convert is much more likely, I think. It's easy to get the necessary information over the internet, and with enough dedication, and a bit of testing, you'll get them to work.

That might explain why he had so many guns with him - he expected them to fail, and wanted to make sure he could go through all his ammo.

[Simon_Jester]

I'll say the same thing to Flagg that I'm about to say to Jub.

Until we know how he obtained the guns, we do not and cannot know what, if any, legal oversights or errors or flaws were involved. Therefore, we cannot prescribe a solution until we understand the nature of the problem it's meant to solve. The fact that people are suggesting how to treat the problem before they know what the problem is does not speak well of the chances that said solution will actually do what it's supposed to.

You're all arguing about the same thing. Stop it now, it's pointless.

So, yes, illegal weapons are illegal. There's almost no grey here; either this guy legitimately owned automatic weapons (in which case it means that he's gone through the most extensive background checks available to mankind) or he got them illegally. So this isn't a gun control issue.

You would think that if the authorities have their hands on these weapons it will become clear where they came from, and I'm interested in knowing that myself.

That's pretty America centric there qnd also completely untrue given that this is a gun control issue. Mass shootings aren't an issue north of the boarder

You know, mass shootings aren't an issue in a LOT of countries, including countries whose gun ownership rates are much higher than the ones in Canada.

Meanwhile, there are other countries in the world where berserk killing rampages are a documented phenomenon, countries that are by no means extraordinary in terms of gun ownership rates. And yet in many countries, these kinds of rampages do not occur normally, whether they involve guns or not.

The US is pretty much unique here in having both random crazy berserkers and a lot of guns. The guns might be influencing the type of violence, but it's debatable whether they're the actual underlying problem. Me, I think the problem is whatever is causing Americans to go murderously insane without psychiatric treatment or community support.. Maybe the US is more violent for other reasons, which are more fundamental and significant, and higher gun ownership rates are only responsible for a small fraction of the overall problem?

...and automatic weapon ownership is virtually non-existent outside of heirloom weapons that basically cannot be transfered.

Until we know exactly how these automatic weapons were obtained, it is completely pointless to talk about how they should have been secured differently. For all I know, this guy literally made his own machine guns. People can and have done that with access to a set of metalworking tools. They might not be reliable, but that's why you carry ten of them I guess?

Saying that gun control doesn't factor in is patently false and, in this specific case, I dare somebody to claim that this attack would still have happened if the suspect had a knife/car/some other non-firearm means of attack.

This exact attack would not have happened. Some attack of comparable horribleness could still have happened. The same guy might have, oh, I don't know, gradually amassed a pile of fertilizer, then used it to blow up a federal office building. We know this because that exact thing happened just over twenty years ago when another lone nut (with an accomplice or two) decided to make his mark in the newspapers by killing people.

[Broomstick]

Getting an automatic weapon legally in the US requires a bunch of money, scrutiny by various law enforcement agencies including an FBI background check that takes months. People who go that route are on the government radar. If someone not a dealer and not law enforcement starts buying multiple such guns they're going to get more scrutiny.

So... maybe he got them illegally. As noted, legal owners aren't in the habit of leaving these things lying around. Even non-operable museum pieces are worth 10k or more. Illegal full auto aren't plentiful or easy to acquire, either. They're even more fucking expensive than the legal ones. And to get ten of them? Did this guy have a spare million dollars lying around or something?

OK, maybe he had semi-automatic rifles that were modified to be full auto. OK.... how? Did he have the skills, or acquire them, to make the necessary parts? This isn't rocket science but it does take some level of skill and precision to do this. And to do it well enough that the gun will function without jamming or blowing up in your hands. Did he pay someone else with the skills to do this? I dunno, maybe, but boy howdy you're relying on someone else to keep their mouth shut about the whole thing.

For damn sure a LOT of planning and patience went into this. It was not an impulsive act. Any way you look at this it would take money, resources, planning, and patience. What the fuck was his motivation?

As far as trade in automatic guns in the US - there's just not a lot of market for them. For almost any purpose you can think of semi-auto does the job just as well and are a fuckton easier and cheaper to obtain whether legally or illegally.

[Zixinus]

It is an unusual profile for this sort of thing. Old white man. Actual fully-automatic weapons fire (that is very hard to get) with a great deal of ammunition. Country music festival to boot, although it is a relatively "random" public(ish), crowded place.

Boldings are mine.
BBC page about what has been gathered about the gunman so far.

Police have named Stephen Paddock as the gunman who killed at least 58 people and hospitalised 515 others at a Las Vegas concert was an accountant.

The 64-year-old, of Mesquite, Nevada, sprayed bullets at music-lovers as a gig by country singer Jason Aldean was ending on Sunday night, said officers.

Paddock was a retired accountant who flew small planes and had no criminal record, said authorities.

Investigators have ruled out a link to international terrorism.

Live updates on Las Vegas mass shooting
In pictures: Vegas shooting
Las Vegas shooting: Country music stars react

It is the deadliest shooting in modern US history, with the death toll surpassing the 49 killed at a nightclub in Orlando, Florida, in June 2016.

The suspect opened fire from the 32nd floor of the Mandalay Bay Hotel and Casino and killed himself as police closed in, said officials.
Media captionEyewitnesses describe how the terror unfolded

Las Vegas Sheriff Joseph Lombardo said investigators found "in excess of 10 rifles" in the hotel room that Paddock checked into on 28 September.

The FBI said its agents had established no connection between Paddock and any overseas terrorist group, despite a claim from so-called Islamic State.
Media captionPanicked concertgoers take cover amid gunfire

One US official told Reuters news agency the gunman had a history of psychological problems.

According to NBC News, Paddock recently made several gambling transactions in the tens of thousands of dollars.

The network, citing law enforcement officials, said it was unclear whether those bets were wins or losses.

Las Vegas police said Paddock's only previous known brush with the law was a routine traffic violation.
Media captionEric Paddock says he is in total shock after police named his brother, Stephen, as the shooter

The suspect's brother, Bruce Paddock, told NBC his brother had made money through apartment buildings, which he owned and managed with his mother, appeared who lives in Florida.

Investigators have searched the suspected gunman's two-bedroom home, which is part of a retirement community about one hour from Las Vegas.

Quinn Averett of Mesquite Police said it was a "nice, clean home, nothing out of the ordinary".

He said he believed some weapons and ammunition were found inside.
Image copyright Getty Images
Image caption Hundreds of concert-goers fled the scene or ducked for cover amid heavy gunfire

Paddock moved there in 2013 from Texas, property records indicate.

According to US media, the suspect once had a licence to fly small planes and had owned two aircraft.

Eric Paddock, the suspect's other brother, told reporters outside his Orlando home: "We know nothing.

"If you told me an asteroid fell it would mean the same to me.

"There's absolutely no sense, no reason he did this.

"He's just a guy who played video poker and took cruises and ate burritos at Taco Bell."
Media captionWitnesses say people were being trampled

He told reporters his brother was "not an avid gun guy at all" and had no military background.

Eric Paddock also told reporters their father was a bank robber who used to be on the FBI's most wanted list and once escaped from prison.

According to a 1969 poster issued by law enforcement for the fugitive, Patrick Benjamin Paddock was "diagnosed as psychopathic".

Stephen Paddock's former neighbour, Diane McKay, told the Washington Post on Monday that the gunman was a professional gambler and very unfriendly.

"He was weird. Kept to himself," said Ms McKay, 79. "It was like living next to nothing.

"You can at least be grumpy, something. He was just nothing, quiet."

In 2012, Paddock filed a negligence lawsuit against The Cosmopolitan hotel in Las Vegas, after a fall caused by an "obstruction" on the floor, according to his brother.

The legal action was dropped by both parties in 2014.
Media captionTrump on Las Vegas shooting: 'It was an act of pure evil'

Authorities earlier appealed for help in locating Paddock's roommate, Marilou Danley.

But investigators later said she had been interviewed, and was "no longer being sought out as a person of interest".

Ms Danley, 62, was thought to be the gunman's girlfriend.
Image copyright Police handout
Image caption Marilou Danley, initially described as a person of interest, was located by police outside of the US

She was not with Paddock when he checked into the Mandalay, police said.

Investigators said Ms Danley had been traced outside of the US.

They said Paddock had been "utilising some of her identification".

This one seems different... Sustained bursts of fully automatic fire. What was this lunatic using?

Normally that just means that the reporters don't know what they are talking about (or know and refuse to use correct terminology because that might cut off an edge of sensationalist alarmism) and the weapon could have any fire rate above a musket. But what seems to be an upload of the attack does have the rattling of automatic gun fire.

[Lonestar]

The fact is: the both local and federal law enforcement have a very detailed picture of who owns controlled NFA weapons in this country. So there is more to this shooting than weak gun laws. There's a reason why criminals tend to avoid using Assault Rifles and other full-auto weapons: because it gets federal authorities involved as a matter of course.

Either way, some rando didn't get access to these weapons without someone else involved either intentionally or unintentionally. So, there's going to be Hell to pay and not in the Gun Control debate area.

The most mundane explanation is that he knew someone who legally owned a bunch of NFA weapons and stole them.
There's also the chance he stumbled upon the right people to get him illegal weapons.

Unfortunately, we're going to have to wait and let the ATF do their thing and hope they release what they find.

So, some thoughts here:

It sounded a lot to me like an AK, and AKs are tend to be (relatively) easy to convert to full auto. The Norht Hollywood Shooters used modified AKs; it's also why they are banned from civilian ownership in Canada.

It could be bumpfire stocks. I had originally discounted that because the firing seemed pretty regular to me and a Bumpfire still requires actual pulling of the trigger, which would have introduced some irregular firing to me. Also Bumpfires tend to...not be reliable.

But they are reporting that there were 10 rifles in the hotel room, so it could be if he had 10 rifles with Bumpfires that's how he got around one breaking on the second mag. 10 rifles being there sorta swings it back to "bumpfire" territory to me, even if it didn't sound like it to my ears.

I am curious how he managed to pack 10 rifles + ammo in there with no one noticing.

[Broomstick]

That's pretty America centric there qnd also completely untrue given that this is a gun control issue. Mass shootings aren't an issue north of the boarder and automatic weapon ownership is virtually non-existent outside of heirloom weapons that basically cannot be transfered.

That's largely true south of the border, too - automatic weapon ownership is virtually non-existent. Transfer is possible but a pain in the ass, subjected to all sorts of scrutiny, Federal involvement at ever transaction, an in practice rare. Quite a few of the "automatic weapons" in the US aren't even in operable condition, some being museum pieces. The only people dealing in them on any sort of regular basis are those selling to the military and law enforcement and, again, every transaction is vetted even there.

Saying that gun control doesn't factor in is patently false and, in this specific case, I dare somebody to claim that this attack would still have happened if the suspect had a knife/car/some other non-firearm means of attack.

Timonthy McVeigh still has him beat on the body count with a van-transported bomb made of fertilizer and diesel. No, the exact same attack wouldn't have happened but he still could have come up with a way to produce mass carnage. Regardless of what other thing you might say about the Las Vegas shooter, he wasn't stupid and he was capable of making and carrying out plans.

Europe has more vehicle terror attacks, bombs, and acid-throwing than the US in part because guns are a lot harder to get over there. Guns are more common in the US because they're available. Yes, there are serious issues with the US and guns but if you're talking about terror attacks it's not just the weapons you have to worry about because they aren't allow about a particular weapon, they're about killing people. And you can do that not only with knives and guns but as we've seen also with bombs, cars, vans, trucks, airplanes, and pressure cookers.

[Broomstick]

But they are reporting that there were 10 rifles in the hotel room, so it could be if he had 10 rifles with Bumpfires that's how he got around one breaking on the second mag. 10 rifles being there sorta swings it back to "bumpfire" territory to me, even if it didn't sound like it to my ears.

10 rifles makes twisted sense - you don't have to reload, if one fails you have backups, you can avoid failure from overheating by switching guns....

I am curious how he managed to pack 10 rifles + ammo in there with no one noticing.

He checked into the hotel last Thursday. That's several days to move boxes/bags/suitcases of guns and ammo into the room. Seems doable to me.

It's a hotel, people have luggage. Hang a "do not disturb" sign to keep housekeeping out, make sure nothing is visible when you do leave the room, take your time... I see that working.

[Lonestar]

CNN actually reported that Housekeeping had been in and out a few times and didn't notice anything...

[Flagg]

I'll say the same thing to Flagg that I'm about to say to Jub.

Until we know how he obtained the guns, we do not and cannot know what, if any, legal oversights or errors or flaws were involved. Therefore, we cannot prescribe a solution until we understand the nature of the problem it's meant to solve. The fact that people are suggesting how to treat the problem before they know what the problem is does not speak well of the chances that said solution will actually do what it's supposed to.

That’s fair, and it’s more likely that were full auto guns used, he modified the guns illegally rather than obtained legally owned full automatic weapons. And frankly, that’s scarier.

[Flagg]

Do you have any evidence this came from some otherwise legal repository is of automatic weapons? No? Then climb of the pile of dead bodies you are preaching from for five minutes you morbid opportunistic fuck.

Working hard troll?

[Patroklos]

Avoiding hard questions simpleton?

Answer the fucking question as per the rules or shut the fuck up.

[Zixinus]

I am actually wondering whether he somehow came across some cache, found an usually idiotic seller or had some other freakish luck.

10 rifles makes twisted sense - you don't have to reload, if one fails you have backups, you can avoid failure from overheating by switching guns....

Not really, unless they were spare parts. It is possible he brought 10 to have spare parts for experimenting with modifications. If he really wanted to hot-switch them, he would have brought them with him rather than leave them in the apartment.

[Lonestar]

\
Not really, unless they were spare parts. It is possible he brought 10 to have spare parts for experimenting with modifications. If he really wanted to hot-switch them, he would have brought them with him rather than leave them in the apartment.

He did, I'm referencing the ones found in the hotel room.

[Flagg]

Avoiding hard questions simpleton?

Answer the fucking question as per the rules or shut the fuck up.

I did answer it in my response to Simon, troll.

But it’s ok. Trolls gotta troll. Funny how you singled me out instead of Jub, too. Crush or vendetta?

[Patroklos]

If I bother to notice you at all Flagg it's to feel sad for you. You are so very sad.

Which doesn't excuse you from providing evidence for claims you have made (and no you did not do so in your response to Simon, you simply said another option was plausible). Do you have evidence that the weapons used were from a legal source?

Just rip off the bandage Flagg, then you can go back to dancing on the backs of the fallen as you are so fond of doing.

[FireNexus]

CNN actually reported that Housekeeping had been in and out a few times and didn't notice anything...

So? Ten rifles will fit in a duffel bag. In a backpack if you disassemble them. If you do a couple of trips over the course of a few hours, you might arouse some suspicion if you’re Under observation to start, but single old white guy walking around with a duffel bag isn’t the most suspicious thing in Vegas.

[Alyrium Denryle]

If I bother to notice you at all Flagg it's to feel sad for you. You are so very sad.

Which doesn't excuse you from providing evidence for claims you have made (and no you did not do so in your response to Simon, you simply said another option was plausible). Do you have evidence that the weapons used were from a legal source?

Just rip off the bandage Flagg, then you can go back to dancing on the backs of the fallen as you are so fond of doing.

"crawling over dead bodies" is not really a problem on this forum. It is also too early to *have* evidence of where this bastard's guns came from and you know it. All you are trying to do is shut down conversation on a relevant subject.

That said, I am keeping an eye on this thread. If I have to split off a separate thread for gun control arguments, or use thread-necromancy to call up the gun control thread from beyond the grave, I will do so.

[Patroklos]

Flagg made a claim, all I did was ask for evidence. This is a fundemental rule of this board. You are absolutely correct it's too early to know, which is MY point. I am not the only one to make it either.

Flagg claims he not only knows the source problem of this incident but also the solution. It would seem constructive for him to share the evidence for his claim.

[Flagg]

If I bother to notice you at all Flagg it's to feel sad for you. You are so very sad.

Which doesn't excuse you from providing evidence for claims you have made (and no you did not do so in your response to Simon, you simply said another option was plausible). Do you have evidence that the weapons used were from a legal source?

Just rip off the bandage Flagg, then you can go back to dancing on the backs of the fallen as you are so fond of doing.

You only crawl out of the sewer to troll, so I don’t concern myself with your opinion of me. Frankly, you are funny as hell. Just like everyone else I laugh at you and every pathetic attempt at baiting me and others.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Flagg made a claim, all I did was ask for evidence. This is a fundemental rule of this board. You are absolutely correct it's too early to know, which is MY point. I am not the only one to make it either.

Flagg claims he not only knows the source problem of this incident but also the solution. It would seem constructive for him to share the evidence for his claim.

He claimed it is a gun control issue. It probably is, and even if it isn't in this case (due to illegal automatic conversion), it is still germane to the overall problem of mass shootings.

Also: I am not fucking arguing with you. When you see me posting in green, I am speaking in my official capacity