Joker- DC's latest colossal clusterfuck (spoilers).

[Ralin]

So wait, it's not the failure of society that it produces rejects, people who feel useless and worthless?

Gee.

Some more revelations you got there?

Are you trolling or do you just not know anything about the incel subculture? Because describing people who advocate setting up rape farms of retarded girls for them to rape and have culled after they hit puberty as 'rejects' from society who 'feel useless and worthless' is buying into their narrative and is a bad thing.

[FaxModem1]

Too bad The Dark Knight Rises advocates the poor staying in their place and that Gordon should have kept on keeping his mouth shut so that they could detain people without trial.

[Ralin]

Too bad The Dark Knight Rises advocates the poor staying in their place and that Gordon should have kept on keeping his mouth shut so that they could detain people without trial.

Eh. Context. And degree. There wasn't a mass shooting and sexual assault prone demographic eagerly posting about Bane would be their hero and show the world how awesome they were and stuff.

[Ziggy Stardust]

I mean. It's not that great of a book. Unless you do a whole literary analysis kinda thing, but it's not that great of a book.

I don't like it, either. But it's not really the point.

Jesus, Christ. This is like saying that "The Catcher in the Rye" should be banned.

That has been done

Yes, I know, that's why I brought it up. I wasn't appealing to it as an unthinkable hypothetical, I was appealing to it as an example of a previous stupidity that parallels this one.

[Ralin]

Showing a direct line between making a movie with an incel-coded hero and any violence it might inspire is always going to be questionable, but if nothing else it's fair to criticize film makers who pander to that mindset. If someone made a movie about this poor French teenager who keeps getting shit on by racists and cops until finally he learns the truth about Allah, joins ISIS and ultimately leads a glorious rampage through the streets of Paris before retiring to coffee served by his slave wife or something we'd all agree that's really shitty and horrible to glorify.

[Gandalf]

But it also shows that the Joker is fundamentally wrong- that people will not just turn on each other to save themselves.

But that's not the problematic bit.

We also see Lucius basically tell Batman that he can't keep those "emergency powers" he's given himself indefinitely, and destroying the surveilance system at the end of the film.

The pro-propaganda message around polishing Dent's image is troubling, but the ending is overall optimistic, I think.

The ultimate message that this creates is that people are fundamentally good, and need unaccountable people willing to do bad things in order to keep everyone safe. But these unaccountable people are totally selfless. It's an argument for tyranny, and plain hiding things from the public because Caesar can do no wrong.

It's the same issue with most of the MCU, which glorifies the shit out of America's military industrial complex, despite all the blood on their hands.

[The Romulan Republic]

But it also shows that the Joker is fundamentally wrong- that people will not just turn on each other to save themselves.

But that's not the problematic bit.

We also see Lucius basically tell Batman that he can't keep those "emergency powers" he's given himself indefinitely, and destroying the surveilance system at the end of the film.

The pro-propaganda message around polishing Dent's image is troubling, but the ending is overall optimistic, I think.

The ultimate message that this creates is that people are fundamentally good, and need unaccountable people willing to do bad things in order to keep everyone safe. But these unaccountable people are totally selfless. It's an argument for tyranny, and plain hiding things from the public because Caesar can do no wrong.

It's the same issue with most of the MCU, which glorifies the shit out of America's military industrial complex, despite all the blood on their hands.

The films also make it quite clear that most of the Gotham politicians aren't saints (Dent sure as hell isn't), and that Batman is only necessary because the system has failed. You can certainly see it as promoting unaccountable vigilantism- but Batman is also shown to need people (in Fox and Alfred and Gordon) who are willing to call out his excesses. At most, its saying "Emergency powers can be useful in the hands of a person of exceptional character, if they are temporary and that person has advisers around them to reign them in if they go too far."

Its not a perfect message, I don't completely agree with it, but I don't take it as an unqualified endorsement of the military-industrial complex, as you seem to.

[Darth Yan]

But it also shows that the Joker is fundamentally wrong- that people will not just turn on each other to save themselves.

But that's not the problematic bit.

We also see Lucius basically tell Batman that he can't keep those "emergency powers" he's given himself indefinitely, and destroying the surveilance system at the end of the film.

The pro-propaganda message around polishing Dent's image is troubling, but the ending is overall optimistic, I think.

The ultimate message that this creates is that people are fundamentally good, and need unaccountable people willing to do bad things in order to keep everyone safe. But these unaccountable people are totally selfless. It's an argument for tyranny, and plain hiding things from the public because Caesar can do no wrong.

It's the same issue with most of the MCU, which glorifies the shit out of America's military industrial complex, despite all the blood on their hands.

Uh Shield got subverted by literal neo Nazis and the people pushing for the unaccountable surveillance are portrayed as selfish monsters who don’t really have good intentions. Thaddeus Ross is portrayed as a smug hypocrite who downplays that his lying to Bruce about what the experiments they were doing about were because he didn’t like “a damn civilian getting involved” which incidentally is why the hulk is even a THING.

[Gandalf]

Uh Shield got subverted by literal neo Nazis and the people pushing for the unaccountable surveillance are portrayed as selfish monsters who don’t really have good intentions. Thaddeus Ross is portrayed as a smug hypocrite who downplays that his lying to Bruce about what the experiments they were doing about were because he didn’t like “a damn civilian getting involved” which incidentally is why the hulk is even a THING.

That's weird, nobody seemed to mind that surveillance in the first one; especially Fury and Banner who jumped at its use. Unless you're calling them villains.

[Darth Yan]

Bruce was more paranoid about hulk and fury is well fury. The whole point of winter soldier is that that kind of surveillance is dangerous

[Darth Yan]

I'm also reminded of Knightfall. The mayor is skeptical of batman until he does something awesome and he basically gives batman free reign....thing is this is around the time Bruce is crippled and temporarily replaced with Azrael who really IS a violent lunatic at this point (The results are NOT pretty). Basically showing why giving a vigilante absolute 100% free reign is a bad idea; while Batman himself may have good intentions even he realizes you have to work with the system sucky as it might be. Also even if he has genuinely good intentions there's no guarantee the NEXT guy will.

[Gandalf]

The films also make it quite clear that most of the Gotham politicians aren't saints (Dent sure as hell isn't), and that Batman is only necessary because the system has failed. You can certainly see it as promoting unaccountable vigilantism- but Batman is also shown to need people (in Fox and Alfred and Gordon) who are willing to call out his excesses. At most, its saying "Emergency powers can be useful in the hands of a person of exceptional character, if they are temporary and that person has advisers around them to reign them in if they go too far."

Its not a perfect message, I don't completely agree with it, but I don't take it as an unqualified endorsement of the military-industrial complex, as you seem to.

Yeah, those people question Batman periodically, but they also encourage him a lot. It's effectively the Bush era politics of "trust the unaccountable strongman, your liberties will be restored when the fear abates."

Bruce was more paranoid about hulk and fury is well fury. The whole point of winter soldier is that that kind of surveillance is dangerous

So you would call Fury and Banner selfish monsters?

[The Romulan Republic]

The films also make it quite clear that most of the Gotham politicians aren't saints (Dent sure as hell isn't), and that Batman is only necessary because the system has failed. You can certainly see it as promoting unaccountable vigilantism- but Batman is also shown to need people (in Fox and Alfred and Gordon) who are willing to call out his excesses. At most, its saying "Emergency powers can be useful in the hands of a person of exceptional character, if they are temporary and that person has advisers around them to reign them in if they go too far."

Its not a perfect message, I don't completely agree with it, but I don't take it as an unqualified endorsement of the military-industrial complex, as you seem to.

Yeah, those people question Batman periodically, but they also encourage him a lot. It's effectively the Bush era politics of "trust the unaccountable strongman, your liberties will be restored when the fear abates."

Or it could be taken as a message that a leader's subordinates have a responsibility to stand up to them if they refuse to relinquish those emergency powers indefinitely. I think TDK's surveilance can be taken both as an endorsement of emergency powers in a crisis, and also as a strong rebuke of leaders who try to keep those powers past when they're truly needed.

Many great leaders have claimed temporary emergency powers in a crisis. Many nations even have legal provision for such powers. That's problematic, certainly, because most leaders don't have the moral character of Batman (flawed as his is). But there is a difference between a leader who temporarily claims emergency powers to prevent a greater catastrophe (ie Abraham Lincoln, who argued that actions which were normally a breach of the Constitution were justified in order to fulfill his oath to uphold the Constitution, and prevent the entire government and Constitution from being overthrown- a view the courts subsequently upheld IIRC), and those who claim emergency powers indefinitely and/or use them to ram through whatever they want. That distinction matters, and frankly its a very selective reading of TDK, in my opinion, which sees the film as simply an endorsement of unaccountable strongmen.

[Darth Yan]

The films also make it quite clear that most of the Gotham politicians aren't saints (Dent sure as hell isn't), and that Batman is only necessary because the system has failed. You can certainly see it as promoting unaccountable vigilantism- but Batman is also shown to need people (in Fox and Alfred and Gordon) who are willing to call out his excesses. At most, its saying "Emergency powers can be useful in the hands of a person of exceptional character, if they are temporary and that person has advisers around them to reign them in if they go too far."

Its not a perfect message, I don't completely agree with it, but I don't take it as an unqualified endorsement of the military-industrial complex, as you seem to.

Yeah, those people question Batman periodically, but they also encourage him a lot. It's effectively the Bush era politics of "trust the unaccountable strongman, your liberties will be restored when the fear abates."

Bruce was more paranoid about hulk and fury is well fury. The whole point of winter soldier is that that kind of surveillance is dangerous

So you would call Fury and Banner selfish monsters?

No I wouldn’t. I was thinking the hydra guys. In any case the surveillance state is seen as a bad idea

[Ralin]

Strong morally upright guy who answers only to himself going outside the law to do the right thing and stop evil-doers is part of the definition of a superhero. If the rules and the system were working then they wouldn't need the protagonist to step up and save the day.

It almost seems as if you have an ax to grind and are looking for ways to interpret these stories in a negative light, Gandalf.

[Darth Yan]

You're really surprised by this? Gandalf thinks a lot of things related to the west are inherently evil. Stas went on a similar tangent about superheroes a while back with equally spurious logic.

Also hilariously enough Batman's actions COULD be legally defined as a citizen's arrest. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizen%2 ... ted_States

And even than Superheroes either a.) have to work within the system to a degree (batman still lets the courts try the criminals) or b.) are able to acknowledge the gray areas. Hell in Superman and Wonder Woman THEIR rouges are the kind of people who could level city blocks so it's a lot less galling. Hal Jordan's in fucking space all the time and Aquaman is beneath the sea.

[K. A. Pital]

Are you trolling or do you just not know anything about the incel subculture? Because describing people who advocate setting up rape farms of retarded girls for them to rape and have culled after they hit puberty as 'rejects' from society who 'feel useless and worthless' is buying into their narrative and is a bad thing.

And where did this horrible subculture originate? How did it draw in so many adolescents? In a good, healthy society that values its members, teaches people empathy and embrace of usefulness? Sure, society is diseased, but you keep valiantly attacking the symptoms and ignoring the causes (alienation, for example). But sure - go on, I am listening carefully.

[Ralin]

And where did this horrible subculture originate? How did it draw in so many adolescents?

A really toxic brew of misogyny, entitlement stemming from misogynistic and entitled people talking to each other over the internet and recruiting like-minded people.

In a good, healthy society that values its members, teaches people empathy and embrace of usefulness?

I'm sure you're eager to dunk on the terrible decadent west, but incels are a thing from Brazil to Moscow and back.

Sure, society is diseased, but you keep valiantly attacking the symptoms and ignoring the causes (alienation, for example). But sure - go on, I am listening carefully.

Stas? Go to hell. I'm about as alienated and isolated as someone from my generation gets. I don't have a single friend that doesn't live hundreds or thousands of miles away, I haven't seen any of my family in years and don't expect to ever see any of them again. I've never been anything but disconnected from the culture I grew up in. I have a ton of debt I'll never pay off and I have been single and depressed for most of my life and don't really expect that to change at this point. DESPITE THAT, I don't constantly fantasize about raping and torturing foids or think that the government should provide me with my own personal sex slave. Society doesn't fucking infect people with the incel virus. People do that to themselves, and it happens across ages, ethnicity, national and socio-economic lines.

[Darth Yan]

Are you trolling or do you just not know anything about the incel subculture? Because describing people who advocate setting up rape farms of retarded girls for them to rape and have culled after they hit puberty as 'rejects' from society who 'feel useless and worthless' is buying into their narrative and is a bad thing.

And where did this horrible subculture originate? How did it draw in so many adolescents? In a good, healthy society that values its members, teaches people empathy and embrace of usefulness? Sure, society is diseased, but you keep valiantly attacking the symptoms and ignoring the causes (alienation, for example). But sure - go on, I am listening carefully.

Part of it is plain old sexism, part of it is taught (a lot of rom coms have NOT aged well in regards to women and consent, and they often teach that men are entitled to women); alienation may play a part but some of them just had plain unhealthy views (Klebold and Harris were into neo nazi subculture). Society needs changing true but at the same time acting like every incel like Elliot Rogers was treated badly by society is dishonest. Rogers and Dylan Roof didn't have tragic backstories they were just shitheads.

Hell MEGAMIND of all things did a FANTASTIC job deconstructing the Nice Guy archetype (the REAL villain of the movie is ultimately the stereotypical Nice Guy who acts like he's entitled to a woman and thinks he loves her.....while ignoring her feelings and treating her like an object.)

Also Ralin maybe you should reach out to your family.

[K. A. Pital]

I feel sorry for you guys. Your society has failed you; indeed, it may have even fucked you. Maybe even fucked you up.

But you‘re not worried about a flawed society, instead choosing to get obsessed about a film that depicts a villain whose origins lie in societal rejection for trying to be a good person.

It is pretty bog-standard as far as these stories go, and according to reviews, it is a well-crafted story at that.

You seem to say the incels and such are fully responsible for their bad actions. Agreed for the sake of expediency, since this discussion is getting dumber by the god damn second. So... Is that not already clear that if society is not to blame, then sure as hell also the film has fuck all to do with that, and whoever decided to go on a shooting spree can’t really blame a fucking comic book film, ain’t that right?

Or computer games cause Satanism?

Or did you not notice a tiny little problem with a society that produces depressed, alone, isolated and indebted-for-life loners? I mean, surely it does have an impact on many, many people, even if you managed to shrug off the effects and remain a decent person?

[Ralin]

Society needs changing true but at the same time acting like every incel like Elliot Rogers was treated badly by society is dishonest. Rogers and Dylan Roof didn't have tragic backstories they were just shitheads.

Based on everything I've read about them, Elliot Rodgers' parents didn't even do a particularly bad job. Sure, they indulged him, but we're not talking affluenza levels. They bought him nice clothes and put him through school and got him tickets to some fancy parties from people they worked with in the film industries. They tried to get him therapy when they saw he was getting fucked up in the head, but he refused and he was old enough that they couldn't force him to.

[Ralin]

But you‘re not worried about a flawed society, instead choosing to get obsessed about a film that depicts a villain whose origins lie in societal rejection for trying to be a good person.

...

You seem to say the incels and such are fully responsible for their bad actions. Agreed for the sake of expediency, since this discussion is getting dumber by the god damn second. So... Is that not already clear that if society is not to blame, then sure as hell also the film has fuck all to do with that, and whoever decided to go on a shooting spree can’t really blame a fucking comic book film, ain’t that right?

Or computer games cause Satanism?

For fuck's sake Stas, this isn't a difficult concept. We don't think Joker will cause the incel vyrus to mutate someone into a mass shooter. We don't like the idea of a popular movie pandering to them since that sort of thing might make them a feel a little bolder or more mainstream and that isn't likely to lead to anything good. And from what I've read about it the movie seems to be going for that, or if not then they still came up with something that's really easy to interpret that way. And we also know from the chatter on incel message boards and subreddits and such (reading about incels is sort of a hobby for me) that plenty of them are basically expecting this to be their Black Panther.

[K. A. Pital]

Black Panther was a racist piece of shit film that implied Africans won’t help their own peoples after getting rich, close off their society to refugees, and also keep an absolute tribal monarchy defined by ritual death duels. If it weren’t for Killmonger, it would have been absolutely irredeemable.

So if Joker treats incels like Black Panther treated black people, oh well.

[Ralin]

Yeah well, a bunch of black people seemed to like it and get pumped up about it and that's what I was going for with that analogy.

[Darth Yan]

Black Panther was a racist piece of shit film that implied Africans won’t help their own peoples after getting rich, close off their society to refugees, and also keep an absolute tribal monarchy defined by ritual death duels. If it weren’t for Killmonger, it would have been absolutely irredeemable.

So if Joker treats incels like Black Panther treated black people, oh well.

Uh that the society was deeply flawed WAS THE ENTIRE FUCKING POINT. It even acknowledges that Killmonger was right that they shouldn’t be closed off from the world (it’s just that his methods were needlessly cruel and violent). I mean I knew you had an axe to grind but Jesus fucking Christ.

Africans are people and guess what? They have flaws just like everyone else; colonialism certainly introduced evils but only an idiot would say the societies didn’t have issues earlier

Also many “nice guys” really aren’t that nice. If you’re reaction to a woman gently rejecting you is to go on a rampage your not tragic. You’re just an entitled shitbag who only ever wanted a woman for sex