Federal Law Enforcement Use Unmarked Vehicles To Grab Protesters Off Portland Streets
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Re: Federal Law Enforcement Use Unmarked Vehicles To Grab Protesters Off Portland Streets
Wow TRR, you are an idiot on the military front, Trump's approval ratings within the military has been taking hits since he was in office, with December of last year having it be 50/50... and it is likely at less than 40% right now...
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Re: Federal Law Enforcement Use Unmarked Vehicles To Grab Protesters Off Portland Streets
Please post evidence of that, GAF. From what I can see in the news and on social media, other than the top brass the military seems to be pretty okay with how things are developing.
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Re: Federal Law Enforcement Use Unmarked Vehicles To Grab Protesters Off Portland Streets
Also, of those agencies cited, how many are military? I know Coast Guard is, but the others I thought were more law enforcement.
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Re: Federal Law Enforcement Use Unmarked Vehicles To Grab Protesters Off Portland Streets
A poll was taken showing the military evenly split on impeachment near the start of this year (+1% for impeachment IIRC), and its well known that most of the officers are anti-Trump. Its likely that his support has eroded further since then, as it has everywhere, though I do not know of any hard numbers to back that up.Bob the Gunslinger wrote: ↑2020-07-23 08:08pm Please post evidence of that, GAF. From what I can see in the news and on social media, other than the top brass the military seems to be pretty okay with how things are developing.
Of course, I never disputed any of this, but the military being anti-Trump is not the same as the military being willing to back an armed overthrow of Trump while he is still, in the eyes of the law, the legitimate President- which was my concern. So GAF's calling me an idiot and mocking my supposed ignorance (while providing no evidence for his claim) is just yet another (relatively minor) round in this board's long history of attacking me as deflection tactic.
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Re: Federal Law Enforcement Use Unmarked Vehicles To Grab Protesters Off Portland Streets
If I remember right the Coast Guard has an odd status where sometimes they're military and sometimes they aren't depending on current events. I think it came up in one of Wong's hate mail exchanges back in the day.
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Re: Federal Law Enforcement Use Unmarked Vehicles To Grab Protesters Off Portland Streets
Wait, so does that mean deploying Coast Guard as part of his secret police is a Posse Comitatus violation or not?
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Re: Federal Law Enforcement Use Unmarked Vehicles To Grab Protesters Off Portland Streets
The Coast Guard's status is weird; it operates under the authority of Homeland Security in peacetime but can be transferred to the Department of the Navy by the President (using his commander in chief authority) or Congress (if they declare a war). Also, the Coast Guard has law enforcement authority and is exempt from the Posse Comitatus Act. They are out of their jurisdiction either way, though.
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Re: Federal Law Enforcement Use Unmarked Vehicles To Grab Protesters Off Portland Streets
Wow. I did not know all of that. Cheers all.
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"
- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist
"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"
- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist
"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
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Re: Federal Law Enforcement Use Unmarked Vehicles To Grab Protesters Off Portland Streets
If the car is unmarked and the agents unclear, are you entitled to 'stand your ground'?
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Re: Federal Law Enforcement Use Unmarked Vehicles To Grab Protesters Off Portland Streets
No-knock raids include a warrant (signed by a judge), not just "(im)probable cause" snatchings. Problem being: these unmarked cars are filled with unmarked yahoos who *want* to shoot you, and are better armed.
Doubtless the middle-management who let this happen has a back-up plan to vilify anyone who might choose to defend themselves from this anonymous abduction program. Or like the rest of the Trump Administration, will try to find one *after the fact* (little use to the folks they leave to bleed out on the street while they high-five each other, or more directly execute with a knee on the neck).
[edit typo]
Doubtless the middle-management who let this happen has a back-up plan to vilify anyone who might choose to defend themselves from this anonymous abduction program. Or like the rest of the Trump Administration, will try to find one *after the fact* (little use to the folks they leave to bleed out on the street while they high-five each other, or more directly execute with a knee on the neck).
[edit typo]
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Re: Federal Law Enforcement Use Unmarked Vehicles To Grab Protesters Off Portland Streets
No-knock raids are carried out by cops. You're kidding yourself if you think that the bit about having a warrant signed by a judge is the deciding factor in whether it's legal to defend yourself against one.
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Re: Federal Law Enforcement Use Unmarked Vehicles To Grab Protesters Off Portland Streets
The lawsuit filed by the Attorney General of Oregon specifically states that it might, noting that Oregon has a problem with militia assholes who plausibly would do the same kind of kidnapping stunts under the false cover of law, and that this is a problem for Oregon law enforcement because while no such incident has yet happened, they don't want to deal with the inevitable "Federal agent killed (in self defense)" situation. They also note that under Oregon law the police have to identify their agency, and that just because they are Federal Agents doesn't mean they are except from this law while operating in the state of Oregon. Basically the lawsuit states that the State of Oregon's soverignty is being violated right now, which means that just as Rogue 9 predicted upthread, Article 4 is being invoked to try and stop this crime against the people. Its a slam dunk case, the main problem is getting an injunction and getting it enforced.
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Re: Federal Law Enforcement Use Unmarked Vehicles To Grab Protesters Off Portland Streets
Possibly, if you're white. The fact that Il Douchebag's thugs are indistinguishable from the latest batches of neo-Nazis would make a Self Defense/Stand Your Ground case pretty easy:
Re: Federal Law Enforcement Use Unmarked Vehicles To Grab Protesters Off Portland Streets
You misunderstand my position: no-knock raids are approved in advance by a judge, after satisfying someone in a position of authority that there's some "there" there. There is a legal trail of "these people provided this evidence", and then action in compliance with the law.
Anonymously abducting "someone in all black, walking down the street" is a) a "fishing expedition" AND b) intimidation and state-sponsored terrorism under the guise of "law and order" (in direct contradiction of the law and order). These abductions aren't even being given the legitimacy of a paper trail when those abducted were officially "never arrested or detained" by Federal Officers, while factually they *were kidnapped*. If these abductions officially "never happened", the Federals involved can't then claim they were legally acting in an official capacity *after the fact*.
But as I said, none of that helps those they would kill for defending themselves, in exercising these extra-judicial actions.
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Re: Federal Law Enforcement Use Unmarked Vehicles To Grab Protesters Off Portland Streets
Yeah. The main issue with physically resisting federal agents is not whether a legal loophole permits it, but that the federal government has way more force at their disposal than any civilian attempting to resist them, meaning that said resistance will be at best ineffective, and at worst end with the resistor getting shot.
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I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.
I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
Re: Federal Law Enforcement Use Unmarked Vehicles To Grab Protesters Off Portland Streets
I'm actually thinking cans of expanding builders foam on a ripcord, and just start spraying yourself. It'd be a brave idiot to drag you into a small van with them then.
Same for cuffing yourself to something rather then let them take you. Would need a witness streaming it to make sure they don't get sillier.
Course, they'd probably shoot you for weilding a chemical weapon.
Same for cuffing yourself to something rather then let them take you. Would need a witness streaming it to make sure they don't get sillier.
Course, they'd probably shoot you for weilding a chemical weapon.
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Re: Federal Law Enforcement Use Unmarked Vehicles To Grab Protesters Off Portland Streets
The Philadelphia DA appears to be standing his ground, and warning that Federal agents who seize people in Philadelphia will be arrested and prosecuted for kidnapping.
First Degree Kidnapping in Pennsylvania is defined as follows:
https://thefishmanfirm.com/kidnapping-l ... nsylvania/
The DA isn't fucking around here.
First Degree Kidnapping in Pennsylvania is defined as follows:
https://thefishmanfirm.com/kidnapping-l ... nsylvania/
It carries a maximum sentence of 20 years in prison and a 25,000 dollar fine.The removal or confinement…accomplished by force, threat or deception, or, in the case of an incapacitated person, if it is accomplished without the consent of a parent, guardian or other person responsible for general supervision of his welfare.
The removal or confinement …accomplished by force, threat or deception, or, in the case of a person under 14 years of age, if it is accomplished without consent of a parent, guardian or other person responsible for general supervision of his welfare.
The DA isn't fucking around here.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver
"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.
I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.
I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
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Re: Federal Law Enforcement Use Unmarked Vehicles To Grab Protesters Off Portland Streets
Well, after what happened in Fishtown near Philly, I'm not surprised.The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2020-07-25 10:56pm The Philadelphia DA appears to be standing his ground, and warning that Federal agents who seize people in Philadelphia will be arrested and prosecuted for kidnapping.
First Degree Kidnapping in Pennsylvania is defined as follows:
https://thefishmanfirm.com/kidnapping-l ... nsylvania/
It carries a maximum sentence of 20 years in prison and a 25,000 dollar fine.The removal or confinement…accomplished by force, threat or deception, or, in the case of an incapacitated person, if it is accomplished without the consent of a parent, guardian or other person responsible for general supervision of his welfare.
The removal or confinement …accomplished by force, threat or deception, or, in the case of a person under 14 years of age, if it is accomplished without consent of a parent, guardian or other person responsible for general supervision of his welfare.
The DA isn't fucking around here.
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Re: Federal Law Enforcement Use Unmarked Vehicles To Grab Protesters Off Portland Streets
Thanks. Can I borrow this pic for an argument elsewhere ?
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Re: Federal Law Enforcement Use Unmarked Vehicles To Grab Protesters Off Portland Streets
If this actually gets to trial I expect the Philly DA to lose and lose badly. The Feds do have the right to arrest people who commit crimes on or against Federal property even if they are no longer on Federal property and the Feds do not need the states permission to make those arrests. The markings on vehicles (or lack there of) and the uniforms the Feds are wearing or stylistic issues that will have no impact on the legality of the arrest.The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2020-07-25 10:56pm The Philadelphia DA appears to be standing his ground, and warning that Federal agents who seize people in Philadelphia will be arrested and prosecuted for kidnapping.
First Degree Kidnapping in Pennsylvania is defined as follows:
https://thefishmanfirm.com/kidnapping-l ... nsylvania/
It carries a maximum sentence of 20 years in prison and a 25,000 dollar fine.The removal or confinement…accomplished by force, threat or deception, or, in the case of an incapacitated person, if it is accomplished without the consent of a parent, guardian or other person responsible for general supervision of his welfare.
The removal or confinement …accomplished by force, threat or deception, or, in the case of a person under 14 years of age, if it is accomplished without consent of a parent, guardian or other person responsible for general supervision of his welfare.
The DA isn't fucking around here.
Nicholas
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Re: Federal Law Enforcement Use Unmarked Vehicles To Grab Protesters Off Portland Streets
From what I understand, it's not an issue of if they can arrest people, it's how they are going about it. In other words, breach of protocol (which, Ironically, would get the case the feds bring up thrown out "On a technicality").Nicholas wrote: ↑2020-07-26 08:48amIf this actually gets to trial I expect the Philly DA to lose and lose badly. The Feds do have the right to arrest people who commit crimes on or against Federal property even if they are no longer on Federal property and the Feds do not need the states permission to make those arrests. The markings on vehicles (or lack there of) and the uniforms the Feds are wearing or stylistic issues that will have no impact on the legality of the arrest.The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2020-07-25 10:56pm The Philadelphia DA appears to be standing his ground, and warning that Federal agents who seize people in Philadelphia will be arrested and prosecuted for kidnapping.
First Degree Kidnapping in Pennsylvania is defined as follows:
https://thefishmanfirm.com/kidnapping-l ... nsylvania/
It carries a maximum sentence of 20 years in prison and a 25,000 dollar fine.The removal or confinement…accomplished by force, threat or deception, or, in the case of an incapacitated person, if it is accomplished without the consent of a parent, guardian or other person responsible for general supervision of his welfare.
The removal or confinement …accomplished by force, threat or deception, or, in the case of a person under 14 years of age, if it is accomplished without consent of a parent, guardian or other person responsible for general supervision of his welfare.
The DA isn't fucking around here.
Nicholas
That the DA's willing to elevate breach of protocol to a further offense is definitely an upping of the stakes.
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Justice League- Molly Hayes: Respect Hats or Freakin' Else!
Browncoat
Supernatural Taisen - "[This Story] is essentially "Wouldn't it be awesome if this happened?" Followed by explosions."
Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.
"God! Are you so bored that you enjoy seeing us humans suffer?! Why can't you let this poor man live happily with his son! What kind of God are you, crushing us like ants?!" - Kyoami, Ran
Justice League- Molly Hayes: Respect Hats or Freakin' Else!
Browncoat
Supernatural Taisen - "[This Story] is essentially "Wouldn't it be awesome if this happened?" Followed by explosions."
Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.
"God! Are you so bored that you enjoy seeing us humans suffer?! Why can't you let this poor man live happily with his son! What kind of God are you, crushing us like ants?!" - Kyoami, Ran
Re: Federal Law Enforcement Use Unmarked Vehicles To Grab Protesters Off Portland Streets
It also leaves the Trump administration with a choice between admitting this was a stupid idea and backing down, fighting a court case that they cannot possibly win and looking foolish, or ordering their snatch squads to open fire on state or local police if they interfere.Majin Gojira wrote: ↑2020-07-26 12:38pmFrom what I understand, it's not an issue of if they can arrest people, it's how they are going about it. In other words, breach of protocol (which, Ironically, would get the case the feds bring up thrown out "On a technicality").
That the DA's willing to elevate breach of protocol to a further offense is definitely an upping of the stakes.
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Re: Federal Law Enforcement Use Unmarked Vehicles To Grab Protesters Off Portland Streets
The problem is, its probably only a matter of time before Trump picks option three, at which point state and local governments have a much more binary choice: fight a civil war, or capitulate to fascism.Zaune wrote: ↑2020-07-27 08:20amIt also leaves the Trump administration with a choice between admitting this was a stupid idea and backing down, fighting a court case that they cannot possibly win and looking foolish, or ordering their snatch squads to open fire on state or local police if they interfere.Majin Gojira wrote: ↑2020-07-26 12:38pmFrom what I understand, it's not an issue of if they can arrest people, it's how they are going about it. In other words, breach of protocol (which, Ironically, would get the case the feds bring up thrown out "On a technicality").
That the DA's willing to elevate breach of protocol to a further offense is definitely an upping of the stakes.
"I know its easy to be defeatist here because nothing has seemingly reigned Trump in so far. But I will say this: every asshole succeeds until finally, they don't. Again, 18 months before he resigned, Nixon had a sky-high approval rating of 67%. Harvey Weinstein was winning Oscars until one day, he definitely wasn't."-John Oliver
"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.
I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
"The greatest enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan."-General Von Clauswitz, describing my opinion of Bernie or Busters and third partiers in a nutshell.
I SUPPORT A NATIONAL GENERAL STRIKE TO REMOVE TRUMP FROM OFFICE.
Re: Federal Law Enforcement Use Unmarked Vehicles To Grab Protesters Off Portland Streets
What makes you think that the Trump Administration can't win this court case? If the DA actually charges with kidnapping I expect the DA to lose and lose badly and lose quickly. Nothing I have seen anywhere indicates that these arrests are not lawful. They may be unwise they may be a violation of customary procedures between local and Federal officials but the Feds can arrest people for committing crimes on or against federal property without local consent. So the arrests are lawful and the kidnapping charges will fail.Zaune wrote: ↑2020-07-27 08:20amIt also leaves the Trump administration with a choice between admitting this was a stupid idea and backing down, fighting a court case that they cannot possibly win and looking foolish, or ordering their snatch squads to open fire on state or local police if they interfere.Majin Gojira wrote: ↑2020-07-26 12:38pmFrom what I understand, it's not an issue of if they can arrest people, it's how they are going about it. In other words, breach of protocol (which, Ironically, would get the case the feds bring up thrown out "On a technicality").
That the DA's willing to elevate breach of protocol to a further offense is definitely an upping of the stakes.
Why do you disagree with this?
Nicholas