Japanese War Guilt Debate

[Enforcer Talen]

did the nukes even do the 1% of the damage the japanese did? -checks math-

[Stravo]

Just to add here, the fire bombing of Tokyo inflicted more damage and death than the A-Bombs did.

[RedImperator]

Just to add here, the fire bombing of Tokyo inflicted more damage and death than the A-Bombs did.

And was, unlike Hiroshima, probably unnecessary. The idea was the same as the A-bomb--level and entire city in a short span of time and shock the population into giving up. But it turns out there's a psychological difference between seeing a city destroyed overnight and seeing a city destroyed in an instant.

[Axis Kast]

The Japanese Imperial Army – and by extension, the Empire of Japan – are no more – or less - guilty than their Axis brethren. Thorough study of global history will reveal that while atrocious, Japanese behavior at Nanking, Singapore, Bataan, or Shanghai was in actuality no different from German behavior in Warsaw or Stalingrad. One can make further damning parallels: Soviet behavior in Bucharest or Berlin, American behavior at Wounded Knee, or Belgian behavior in the Congo basin.

Keep in mind that both Germans and Japanese were essentially dealt the “losers’ cards,” or designated moral shackles intended after the Cold War to staunch militant activity that could possibly result in a resurrection of dangerous, Fascist tendencies toward revenge. No similar judgment was ever passed on the United States – which essentially marginalized or slaughters its own native population – or the government of Belgium, technically responsible for the deaths of over two million Belgians during their imperial tenure. Hell, not even Stalin or Mao – whom together were responsible for the unnecessary murder of over one hundred million persons – died with such shame on their foreheads as post-war policymakers deemed to brand Japan.

It’s also interesting to hear enthusiastic discussion of the possibility of “apology.” In the Eastern world – i.e. the Far East -, face is everything. You are asking the current Japanese society to go against all that is to them traditional or holy and essentially cast a pallor of collective guilt over their heritage. We’ve already done the same to Germany. But even after Versailles and the War Guilt clause, they seethed with anger, resentment, and scorn rather than apologetics. And even if we forced them to offer official condemnation of and acknowledge guilt in and sorrow for the Holocaust, it’s a humiliating formality in-abstentia rather than a meaningful restitution.

Japan is guilty, of course - but no more than anybody else. Forget the apologetics. History is history. You can’t change the past, and nobody offering the false words is actually sorry about the whole affair anyway – at least from the same point of view you take.

[Sea Skimmer]

And was, unlike Hiroshima, probably unnecessary. The idea was the same as the A-bomb--level and entire city in a short span of time and shock the population into giving up. But it turns out there's a psychological difference between seeing a city destroyed overnight and seeing a city destroyed in an instant.

A considerable percentage of Japanese industry was based around thousands of small shops spread throughout Japanese cities each making small components. There large factories, especially those of the aviation industry where just assembly areas and held little of value. This was in inefficient system, but it made the already difficult factory bombing campaign near useless.

[Rubberanvil]

American behavior at Wounded Knee,

While it is one of most if not the most horrible single event America have done, it is still nothing compare to the other events listed.

No similar judgment was ever passed on the United States – which essentially marginalized or slaughters its own native population –
or the government of Belgium,

Thing is who was there, back at that time to pass judgement on anybody when their own hands are just as bloody.

It’s also interesting to hear enthusiastic discussion of the possibility of “apology.” In the Eastern world – i.e. the Far East -, face is everything. You are asking the current Japanese society to go against all that is to them traditional or holy and essentially cast a pallor of collective guilt over their heritage.

Given the crimes they're commited because of their pride, then yes.

We’ve already done the same to Germany. But even after Versailles and the War Guilt clause, they seethed with anger, resentment, and scorn rather than apologetics. And even if we forced them to offer official condemnation of and acknowledge guilt in and sorrow for the Holocaust, it’s a humiliating formality in-abstentia rather than a meaningful restitution.

I think you got Post-WW mixed up?

Japan is guilty, of course - but no more than anybody else. Forget the apologetics. History is history. You can’t change the past, and nobody offering the false words is actually sorry about the whole affair anyway – at least from the same point of view you take.

Unlike Germany, Japan haven't been shackled by the knowledge of their history of past misdeeds during World War II, with the furies forever reminding them of it. Honestly after the war US Military should have forced the Japanese soldiers still in China, Korea, Philippines and etc. to stay, and locals have their way with them.

[The Yosemite Bear]

The father of our current president only recieved a "Notation" in his record for a gross violation of the Geneva Accords (Although we doubt that the Nation of Japan will demand our former President to stand trial for straffing civilian lifeboats)

[Frank Hipper]

I am no American apologist.

We have a great deal of dirty laundry to air in this country, but I believe a point to be examined is the fact that we do not turn deaf when it becomes public.

What gets me into a frothing rage is when people paint the United States as an agressor during WWII. We did not start the fucking war, nor did we want to become involved in it.
A person can observe the outcome of the war and creatively paint all kinds of motivations to explain it, but it is unrealistic in the extreme, and willfully ignorant, if not worse.

[Ted]

Thosee bloody nips.

Havn't acknowledged anything bad they did in WWII.

Use of slave labour is denied, yet there is photographic evidence that it was used.

PoWs in jap land would've died in the 45-46 winter if the war lasted that long, my grandfather was almost ready to drop when the Americans walked in after 3.5 years in fukyoka.

The emperor should've been shot, along with his family, and the entire nip government.

[Axis Kast]

We have a great deal of dirty laundry to air in this country, but I believe a point to be examined is the fact that we do not turn deaf when it becomes public.

Bullshit. The Indian Wars. No-Gun Ri. South Vietnam. While I fully believe in the latter two wars, one must admit that the United States often fumbled public relations – on a fatal scale.

While it is one of most if not the most horrible single event America have done, it is still nothing compare to the other events listed.

The Seminole Wars. Manifest Destiny. “Coolie” pogroms. African slavery. We’ve got plenty of blood on our hands. The fact that we’re strong enough to “discourage” criticism, bury the past, and win all wars doesn’t necessarily equate to greater moral perfection than the Japanese. Now I love my country, but I also understand that America isn’t – and was never - above war crimes.

Thing is who was there, back at that time to pass judgement on anybody when their own hands are just as bloody.

Belgian members of parliament were so shocked as to demand immediate censure of Leopold. Brussels stripped him of ownership of the actual holding company. That doesn’t mean the brutalities stopped. Even as Lettow-Vorbeck ran wild across the whole of East Africa, Belgium was never in a position to lend much manpower, white or otherwise. Why? Primarily because the Belgian Congolese were so prone to vengeful rebellion as to require massive garrisons – until 1918 and beyond.

Given the crimes they're commited because of their pride, then yes.

The Japanese Imperial Army committed war crimes as a caveat of human nature and the “victors’ spirit.” Pride was a component of the whole affair but never the catalyst.

What gets me into a frothing rage is when people paint the United States as an aggressor during WWII. We did not start the fucking war, nor did we want to become involved in it.
A person can observe the outcome of the war and creatively paint all kinds of motivations to explain it, but it is unrealistic in the extreme, and willfully ignorant, if not worse.

I assume this was a general statement, directed primarily at others. I’ve made no such assertions.

think you got Post-WW mixed up?

I’m pointing out that Germany has never been truly “sorry” after the fashion you seem to think.

Unlike Germany, Japan haven't been shackled by the knowledge of their history of past misdeeds during World War II, with the furies forever reminding them of it. Honestly after the war US Military should have forced the Japanese soldiers still in China, Korea, Philippines and etc. to stay, and locals have their way with them.

Bullshit. The Japanese still can’t hold a decent conversation with Korea or China without having to face severe criticism. They are constantly reminded of the failings of their Imperial system according to Western pundits.

But do we want to create entire societies castrated almost completely? Do the Japanese deserve especial treatment because you, in your high and mighty majesty, have chosen to single them out for the Rape of Nanking, ignorant of similar transgressions elsewhere? Keep in mind that the military clauses were more to facilitate occupation than to present punishment after the Second World War. The Great War theory of permanent pacifism set in only after Marshal Plan aid had built modern societies once more.

So we should ship all former Japanese soldiers out for beheading? Fantastic plan. Because, of course, they are all baby-killers.

[Striderteen]

From "An Invasion not found in the history books" by James Martin Davis, The Omaha World Herald, November, 1987

Operation Downfall was finalized during the spring and summer of 1945. It called for two massive military undertakings to be carried out in succession and aimed at the heart of the Japanese Empire. In the first invasion - code named Operation Olympic - American combat troops would land on Japan by amphibious assault during the early morning hours of November 1, 1945. Fourteen combat divisions of soldiers and Marines would land on heavily fortified and defended Kyushu, the southernmost of the Japanese home islands, after an unprecedented naval and aerial bombardment. The second invasion - code named Operation Coronet - would send at least 22 combat divisions against 1 million Japanese defenders on the main island of Honshu and the Tokyo Plain. Its goal: the unconditional surrender of Japan. With the exception of the British Pacific Fleet, Operation Downfall was to be a strictly American operation. It called for using the entire Marine Corps, the entire Pacific Navy, elements of the 7th Army Air Force, the 8th Air Force (recently deployed from Europe), the 10th Air Force, and the American Far Eastern Air Force. More the 1.5 million combat soldiers, with 3 million more in support or more than 40 percent of all servicemen still in uniform in 1945 - would be directly involved in the two amphibious assaults. Casualties were expected to be extremely heavy.

Admiral William Leahy estimated that there would be more than 250,000 Americans killed or wounded on Kyushu alone. General Charles Willoughby, chief of intelligence for General Douglas MacArthur, the Supreme Commander of the Southwest Pacific, estimated American casualties from the entire operation would be one million men by the fall of 1946. Williughby’s own intelligence staff considered this to be a conservative estimate.

But that estimate is based on a MASSIVE underestimate of Japanese capabilities:

Captured Japanese documents and post war interrogation of Japanese military leaders disclose that information concerning the number of Japanese planes available for the defense of the home islands was dangerously in error.

During the sea battle at Okinawa alone, Japanese kamikaze aircraft sank 32 Allied ships and damaged more than 400 others. But during the summer of 1945, American top brass concluded that the Japanese had spent their air force since American bombers and fighters daily flew unmolested over Japan. What the military leaders did not know was that by the end of July the Japanese had been saving all aircraft, fuel and pilots in reserve, and had been feverishly building new planes for the decisive battle for their homeland.

As part of Ketsu-Go, the name for the plan to defend Japan, the Japanese were building 20 suicide takeoff strips in southern Kyushu with underground hangers. They also had 35 camouflaged airfields and nine seaplane bases. On the night before the expected invasion, 50 Japanese seaplane bombers, 100 former carrier aircraft and 50 land-based army planes were to be launched in a suicide attack on the fleet. The Japanese had 58 more airfields on Korea, western Honshu and Shikoku, which also were to be used for massive suicide attacks.

Allied intelligence had established that the Japanese had no more that 2,500 aircraft of which they guessed that 300 would be deployed in suicide attacks. In August 1945, however, unknown to Allied intelligence, the Japanese still had 5,651 army and 7,074 navy aircraft, for a total of 12,725 planes of all types. Every village had some type of aircraft manufacturing activity. Hidden in mines, railway tunnels, under viaducts and in basements of department stores, work was being done to construct new planes. Additionally, the Japanese were building newer and more effective models of the Okha- a rocket-propelled bomb much like the German V-1, but flown by a suicide pilot.

When the invasion became imminent, Ketsu-Go called for a fourfold aerial plan of attack to destroy up to 800 Allied ships.

While Allied ships were approaching Japan, but still in the open seas, an initial force of 2,000 army and navy fighters were to fight to the death to control the skies over Kyushu. A second force of 330 navy combat pilots were to attack the main body of the task force to keep it from using its fire support and air cover to protect the troop carrying transports. While these two forces were engaged, a third force of 825 suicide planes was to hit the American transports.

As the invasion convoys approached their anchorages, another 2,000 suicide planes were to be launched in waves of 200 to 300, to be used in hour-by-hour attacks.

By mid-morning of the first day of the invasion, most of the American land-based aircraft would be forced to return to their bases, leaving the defense against the suicide planes to the carrier pilots and the shipboard gunners. Carrier pilots crippled by fatigue would have to land time and time again to rearm and refuel. Guns would malfunction from the heat of continuos firing and ammunition would become scarce. Gun crews would be exhausted by nightfall, but still the waves of kamikazes would continue.

With the fleet hovering off the beaches, all remaining Japanese aircraft would be committed to nonstop suicide attacks, which the Japanese hoped could be sustained for 10 days. The Japanese planned to coordinate their air strikes with attacks from the 40 remaining submarines from the Imperial Navy - some armed with Long Lance torpedoes with a range of 20 miles - when the invasion fleet was 180 miles off Kyushu.

The Imperial Navy had 23 destroyers and 2 cruisers which were operational. These ships were to be used to counterattack the American invasion. A number of the destroyers were to be beached at the last minute to be used as anti-invasion gun platforms. Once offshore, the invasion fleet would be forced to defend not only against the attacks from the air, but would also be confronted with suicide attacks from the sea. Japan had established a suicide naval attack unit of midget submarines, human torpedoes and exploding motorboats.

The goal of the Japanese was to shatter the invasion before the landing. The Japanese were convinced the Americans would back off or become so demoralized that they would then accept a less-than-unconditional surrender and a more honorable and face-saving end for the Japanese.

But as horrible as the battle of Japan would be off the beaches, it would be on Japanese soil that the American forces would face the most rugged and fanatical defense encountered during the war. Throughout the island-hopping Pacific campaign, Allied troops had always out numbered the Japanese 2 to 1 and sometimes 3 to 1.

In Japan it would be different. By virtue of a combination of cunning, guesswork, and brilliant military reasoning, a number of Japan’s top military leaders were able to deduce, not only when, but where, the United States would land its first invasion force. Facing the 14 American divisions landing at Kyushu would be 14 Japanese divisions, 7 independent mixed brigades, 3 tank brigades and thousands of naval troops. On Kyushu the odds would be 3 to 2 in favor of the Japanese, with 790,000 enemy defenders against 550,000 Americans. This time the bulk of the Japanese defenders would not be the poorly trained and ill-equipped labor battalions that the Americans had faced in the earlier campaigns.

The Japanese defenders would be the hard-core of the home army. These troops were well-fed and well equipped. They were familiar with the terrain, had stockpiles of arms and ammunition, and had developed an effective system of transportation and supply almost invisible from the air. Many of these Japanese troops were the elite of the army, and they were swollen with a fanatical fighting spirit.

Coming ashore, the American Eastern amphibious assault forces at Miyazaki would face three Japanese divisions, and two others poised for counterattack. Awaiting the Southeastern attack force at Ariake Bay was an entire division and at least one mixed infantry brigade. On the western shores of Kyushu, the Marines would face the most brutal opposition. Along the invasion beaches would be three Japanese divisions, a tank brigade, a mixed infantry brigade and an artillery command. Components of two divisions would also be poised to launch counterattacks. If not needed to reinforce the primary landing beaches, the American Reserve Force would be landed at the base of Kagoshima Bay November 4, where they would be confronted by two mixed infantry brigades, parts of two infantry divisions and thousands of the naval troops.

All along the invasion beaches, American troops would face coastal batteries, anti-landing obstacles and a network of heavily fortified pillboxes, bunkers, and underground fortresses. As Americans waded ashore, they would face intense artillery and mortar fire as they worked their way through concrete rubble and barbed-wire entanglements arranged to funnel them into the muzzle of these Japanese guns. On the beaches and beyond would be hundreds of Japanese machine gun positions, beach mines, booby traps, trip-wire mines and sniper units.

Suicide units concealed in “spider holes” would engage the troops as they passed nearby. In the heat of battle, Japanese infiltration units would be sent to reap havoc in the American lines by cutting phone and communication lines. Some of the Japanese troops would be in American uniform, English-speaking Japanese officers were assigned to break in on American radio traffic to call off artillery fire, to order retreats and to further confuse troops. Other infiltrators with demolition charges strapped on their chests or backs would attempt to blow up American tanks, artillery pieces and ammunition stores as they were unloaded ashore.

Beyond the beaches were large artillery pieces situated to bring down a curtain of fire on the beach. Some of these large guns were mounted on railroad tracks running in and out of caves protected by concrete and steel.

The battle for Japan would be won by what Simon Bolivar Buckner, a lieutenant general in the Confederate army during the Civil War, had called “Prairie Dog Warfare.” This type of fighting was almost unknown to the ground troops in Europe and the Mediterranean. It was peculiar only to the soldiers and Marines who fought the Japanese on islands all over the Pacific - at Tarawa, Saipan, Iwo Jima and Okinawa. Prairie Dog Warfare was a battle for yards, feet and sometimes inches. It was a brutal, deadly and dangerous form of combat aimed at an underground, heavily fortified, non-retreating enemy.

In addition to the use of poison gas and bacteriological warfare (which the Japanese had experimented with), Japan mobilized its citizenry. Had Olympic come about, the Japanese civilian population, inflamed by a national slogan - One Hundred Million Will Die for the Emperor and Nation -was prepared to fight to the death.

Twenty-eight million Japanese had become a part of the National Volunteer Combat Force. They were armed with ancient rifles, lunge mines, satchel charges, Molotov cocktails and one-shot black powder mortars. Others were armed with swords, long bows, axes and bamboo spears. The civilian units were to be used in nighttime attacks, hit and run maneuvers, delaying actions and massive suicide charges at the weaker American positions.

The only reason Japan surrendered was that the mass destruction caused by the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki shocked the Emperor into overriding the military high command (who wanted to continue fighting; as samurai, they believed in death before dishonor).

It's either nukes or Olympic, and the casualties for Olympic would have been massively in excess of our estimates -- we did not expect mass kamikaze warfare or such large-scale civilian involvement.

[Tosho]

The emperor should've been shot, along with his family, and the entire nip government.

During the war Hirohito was a puppet, all he did wasbreak the tie over whether or not Japan should surrender, not to mention why kill his wife an children? They sure as hell didn't do anything.

[Ted]

Thats all well and good, but you neglect that the nips were trying to surrender before that, on the condition that they keep the Emperor, and it wasn't the nukes that caused them to actually accept unconditionl surrender, it was the fire bombing of Tokyo after the second bomb.

[Striderteen]

WARNING: GRAPHIC!!! VERY GRAPHIC! THOSE WITH WEAK STOMACHS SHOULD NOT READ THIS!!!

Ever heard of the Bataan Death March? After the garrisons at Bataan and Corregidor surrendered, the Japanese forced the survivors to march nearly ninety miles through the jungle with no food or water -- that's six days hard marching in a tropical climate. Anyone who fell behind was summarily shot or beheaded.

But that's not even all...in order to further demoralize the prisoners, the Japanese took the youngest men out and hung them from the trees, still alive, with their genitals cut off and sewn to their tongues (this is not mentioned in the article; I found it in several other accounts which I don't currently have in electronic format).

WASHINGTON, D.C. (AP) — JAN. 28, 1944 — A pent-up story of atrocities perpetrated by the Japanese army on the captured heroes of Bataan and Corregidor was released by the United States government today in sickening detail.

A joint report by the Army and Navy broke at last the rigid censorship maintained by the high command on the almost unbelievable reports that came out of the Pacific, to tell what happened to the men whose valor slowed the tide of Japanese conquest.

A Tale of Torture

Compiled from the sworn statements of officers who survived the starvation and torture and escaped, it catalogued the infamy of a brutal enemy, and wrote in shocking terms the code of the Japanese warrior — to subject 36,000 gallant soldiers to deliberate starvation, to shoot in cold blood the thirsty who seek water, to watch sick men writhe and deny them medicine, to horsewhip those who help their fallen comrades, to beat men with two-by-fours, to behead those who try to escape, and to bury tortured men alive.

The three who lived to return and tell of the agony they endured were Commander Melvyn H. McCoy, USN, of Indianapolis, Lt. Col. S. M. Mellnik, Coast Artillery Corps of Dunmore, Pa., and Lt. Col. William E. Dyess, Air Corps, of Albany, Tex. Dyess is dead—killed in a fighter plane crash at Burbank, Calif., recently while preparing to return to duty in the Pacific. Mellnik is with Gen. Douglas MacArthur in the Southwest Pacific, McCoy on duty in the United States.

Statements Verified

"Their sworn statements included no hearsay whatever, but only facts which the officers related from their own personal experience and observations," said the official report.

The statements have been verified from other sources.

The three officers stated that several times as many American prisoners of war have died, mostly of starvation, forced hard labor, and general brutality, as the Japanese have ever reported.

At one prison camp, Camp O'Donnell, about 2,200 American prisoners died in April and May 1942. In the camp at Cabanatuan, about 3,000 Americans had died up to the end of October 1942. Still heavier mortality occurred among the Filipino prisoners of war at Camp O'Donnell.

The March of Death

The calculated campaign of brutality began as soon as the exhausted American and Filipino soldiers on Bataan collapsed under the overwhelming weight of the enemy assault. What was in store for them was to begin with "the march of death" — and Dyess reported that, beaten and hopeless as they were, they never would have surrendered if they had guessed what lay ahead.

Thousands of prisoners were herded together on the Mariveles airfield at daylight April 10, within earshot of the still defiant guns of Corregidor. Some had food, but were not permitted to eat. All were searched, their personal belongings seized. Those with Japanese money or tokens were beheaded.

Then, in groups of 500 to 1,000 they began the terrible six-day march, along the national road of Bataan toward San Fernando in Pampanga province, the "march of death" so hideous that it would make the black hole of Calcutta sound like a haven of refuge.

A Japanese soldier took Dyess' canteen, gave the water to a horse, threw the canteen away. In a broiling sun, the prisoners were herded through clouds of dust. Men recently killed lay along the road, their bodies flattened by Japanese trucks. Patients bombed out of a field hospital were pushed into the marching column. At midnight the entire group was penned in an enclosure too narrow to allow any of them to lie down. They had no water — a Japanese officer finally permitted them to drink at a dirty carabao wallow.

Before daylight the next day the March was resumed. Still no food for any of them. — water at noon from a dirty roadside stream. Another bullpen at night. When exhausted men fell out moaning, no one was allowed to help — those who still marched heard shots behind them.

The Sun Treatment

On the third day "we were introduced to a form of torture which came to be known as the sun treatment. We were made to sit in the boiling sun all day without cover. We had very little water; our thirst was intense. Many of us went crazy and several died.

"Three Filipino and three American soldiers were buried while still alive."

Death for Water

"Along the road in the province of Pampanga there are many wells. Half-crazed with thirst, six Filipino soldiers made a dash for one of the wells. All six were killed. As we passed Lubao we marched by a Filipino soldier gutted and hanging over a barbed-wire fence.

"Before daylight on April 15 we marched out and 115 of us were packed into a small narrow-gauge box car. The doors were closed and locked. Movement was impossible. Many of the prisoners were suffering from diarrhea and dysentery. The heat and stench were unbearable.

"At Capas Tarlac we were taken out and given the sun treatment for three hours. Then we were marched to Camp O'Donnell.

"I made that march of about 85 miles in six days on one mess kit of rice. Other Americans made 'the march of death' in 12 days without any food whatever."

The prisoners taken at Corregidor did not experience that march, but 7,000 Americans and 5,000 Filipinos were packed for a week with no food on a concrete pavement 100 yards square. There was one water spigot for the 12,000 — the average wait to fill a canteen was 12 hours. They got their first food — a mess kit of rice and a can of sardines — after seven days.

6 to 10 Hours for Water

At Camp O'Donnell there were virtually no water facilities. Prisoners stood in line 6 to 10 hours to get a drink. Clothing went unchanged a month and a half. The principal food was rice, varied twice in two months with enough meat to give one-fourth of the men a piece an inch square. A few times there were comotes, a type of sweet potato, but many were rotten and the prisoners themselves had to post a guard to keep their starving comrades from devouring the rotten vegetables. There was an occasional dab of coconut lard, a little flour, a few mango beans. But there was a black market — those who had money could buy from the Japanese a small can of fish for $5.

There was a hospital — a dilapidated building with no facilities, no medicine. Hundreds lay on the bare floor without cover. The doctors did not even have water to wash the human filth from their patients. After one week, the death rate was 20 Americans a day, 150 Filipinos; after two weeks, 50 and 500 respectively. The sick as well as the merely starving were forced into work gangs, and worked until they dropped dead.

Water Here

About June 1, the Americans were removed from Camp O'Donnell to Cabanatuan, where Dyess joined Mellnik and McCoy, who had come in from Corregidor. Conditions there were a little better. There was adequate drinking water, it was possible to bathe in muddy water; but the diet did not improve. And the brutality continued — men were beaten with shovels and golf clubs, "men were literally worked to death."

Three officers who tried to escape were caught, stripped to their shorts, their hands tied behind them and pulled up by ropes fastened overhead, and kept in this position in the blazing sun for two days; periodically the Japs beat them with a two-by-four; finally one was beheaded and the others shot. By Oct. 26, when Dyess, McCoy and Mellnik left Cabanatuan, 3,000 of the American prisoners had died.

Red Cross Salvation

The three officers were taken with 966 other prisoners, to a penal camp at Davao, Mindanao and put to hard labor. Food was slightly better there, but "the salvation of the American prisoners of war," Dyess reported, was the American and British Red Cross supplies, both clothing and food, that finally began to arrive months late. The beatings, the murder, the studied mistreatment and humiliation continued. By April 1943, there were 1,100 of the 2,000 prisoners at Davao still able to work.

This was the life from which McCoy, Dyess and Mellnik escaped April 4, 1943. The account is based solely on their official reports, but the Army and Navy said at least four others were known to have escaped from the Philippines — Majors Michiel Dobervitch, Ironton, Minn., Austin C. Shoffner, Shelbyville, Tenn., Jack Hawkins, Roxton, Tex., and Corp. Reid Carlos Chamberlain, El Cajone, Calif., all of the Marine Corps.

The Japanese were infamous for their brutal treatment of prisoners. The reason for this is rooted in the bushido code; a captured warrior has no honor (which is why defeated warriors are supposed to commit ritual suicide), and hence has no rights whatsoever.

[EmperorSolo51]

Thosee bloody nips.


The emperor should've been shot, along with his family, and the entire nip government.

I suggest you cool it with the rascist remarks some of us who are proud of our heritage may get offended by it. I had Grand uncles and Grand aunts and great grandfathers who fought for Japan in both World War I and WW2.

What good whould it do to kill off the emperor and the entire Japanese government? If we had done that, The Japanese people will be wanting thier vengeance on the people who destroyed thier Emperor and the Japanese may even begin to recontinue the war dragging the US into an earlier Vietnam. The best way to bring Japan to a stable democracy is to allow the Emperor to contine to reign under as a constitutional Monarch and to have the Japanese write a new constitution forever denouncing war.

[Tosho]

Thats all well and good, but you neglect that the nips were trying to surrender before that, on the condition that they keep the Emperor

Forgive me but I don't see your point, of course the Nihonjin were going to attempt to keep their emperor whom they worshiped(sp?) as divine incarnate. My point was that despite the possibility of losing his throne, Hirohito (who once again had no real power) broke the tie and proved to cooperate with the US occupation forces and thus didn't deserve execution as you suggested.

[Striderteen]

Thats all well and good, but you neglect that the nips were trying to surrender before that, on the condition that they keep the Emperor, and it wasn't the nukes that caused them to actually accept unconditionl surrender, it was the fire bombing of Tokyo after the second bomb.

The firebombing of Tokyo occured on March 9, 1945. The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki occured on August 6, 1945 and August 9, 1945.

In other words, you are dead wrong; the firebombing came before the nukes.

[EmperorSolo51]

Thats all well and good, but you neglect that the nips were trying to surrender before that, on the condition that they keep the Emperor, and it wasn't the nukes that caused them to actually accept unconditionl surrender, it was the fire bombing of Tokyo after the second bomb.

The firebombing of Tokyo occured on March 9, 1945. The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki occured on August 6, 1945 and August 9, 1945.

In other words, you are dead wrong; the firebombing came before the nukes.

He's right. There was a b-29 mission that was launched after the last nuke was dropped. It was a firebombing mission. The b-29 araid lso happend during the midst of nearly successfull officers coup that could have prololonged the war and forced Truman to launch Operation Olympic.
http://pw1.netcom.com/~jb29miss/

[Glocksman]

Thats all well and good, but you neglect that the nips were trying to surrender before that, on the condition that they keep the Emperor,

I could live with the figurehead Emperor staying on. but there's no way in Hell the US would have agreed to the other parts of the Japanese 'surrender proposals', including immunity for war crimes and no occupation of the home islands.

Code Name: Downfall is a pretty good read that details in great degree not only the Japanese preparations for the invasion, but the planned US responses to attacks.

Suffice it to say that if Olympic/Coronet had gone forward and the Japanese resistance plans worked, Japan would not be what it is today.

There were contingency plans to use 6 atom bombs on the invasion beaches alone. We also had plans for poisoning the rice harvest via aerial assault and using gas warfare. One editorial at the time was entitled: "You CAN cook them with gas"

The aftermath of an invasion would have left Japan starving and the land poisoned. How many millions more Japanese would have died?

[Ted]

Thats all well and good, but you neglect that the nips were trying to surrender before that, on the condition that they keep the Emperor, and it wasn't the nukes that caused them to actually accept unconditionl surrender, it was the fire bombing of Tokyo after the second bomb.

The firebombing of Tokyo occured on March 9, 1945. The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki occured on August 6, 1945 and August 9, 1945.

In other words, you are dead wrong; the firebombing came before the nukes.

Then how come I've read in several places that a fire bombing occured AFTER the nukes?

There was more than one firebombing of Tokyo, you know.

[Ted]

There were contingency plans to use 6 atom bombs on the invasion beaches alone. We also had plans for poisoning the rice harvest via aerial assault and using gas warfare. One editorial at the time was entitled: "You CAN cook them with gas"

I knew the Americans used German advisors post-war, but I never thought they used them that early.

[generator_g1]

WARNING: GRAPHIC!!! VERY GRAPHIC! THOSE WITH WEAK STOMACHS SHOULD NOT READ THIS!!!

Ever heard of the Bataan Death March? After the garrisons at Bataan and Corregidor surrendered, the Japanese forced the survivors to march nearly ninety miles through the jungle with no food or water -- that's six days hard marching in a tropical climate. Anyone who fell behind was summarily shot or beheaded.

My grandfather used to tell us horror stories about the Death March. He used to be part of a guerilla group operating in Bataan at the time.

[Striderteen]

There were contingency plans to use 6 atom bombs on the invasion beaches alone. We also had plans for poisoning the rice harvest via aerial assault and using gas warfare. One editorial at the time was entitled: "You CAN cook them with gas"

The aftermath of an invasion would have left Japan starving and the land poisoned. How many millions more Japanese would have died?

Impossible. We only had enough uranium for three bombs: the Trinity test, Little Boy, and Fat Man.

If Operation Olympic went ahead, most of the invasion force transports would have been slaughered by the mass-wave kamikaze attacks, killing millions of U.S. troops. We would have then pulled back and wiped out the entire nation of Japan using starvation, napalm and poison gas.

[Illuminatus Primus]

The invasion plans extended into '46 at the earliest.

They had enough material for two more bombs than were dropped, IIRC.

With a lengthened time table and likely a failed invasion attempt--they would've had more, and better, nuclear bombs.

[Striderteen]

"A Dirty Little Secret" by Douglas L. Frazier

A Dirty Little Secret

A year ago, my uncle died. His last request was that he not be buried with military honors. This is why.

During the summer of 1945, while millions of Americans awaited the invasion of Japan, a handful of Army Officers were engaged in the Manhattan Project and one other not so well known called Operation Olympic. A plan to end the war by using poison gas.

Major General William Porter was assigned to the Army's Chemical Warfare service and developed a plan with my uncle's assistance to kill an estimated five million Japanese with poison gas. This was no joke. The Japanese had used poison gas in China in the 30s and conducted experiments against Allied soldiers, including U.S. and ANZUS prisoners of war, as late as 1945. My uncle was assigned the task of identifying and planning the poisoning of Japan in the event of an invasion of the home-land.

According to his plan, U.S. bombers would drop 75,000 tons of gas bombs per month in a gas blitz until most of the major cities in Japan were eliminated. When the initial landings were commenced, fighters equipped with spray tanks would attack enemy positions with a cocktail of lethal gases -- including phosgene, mustard, hydrogen cyanide, and cyanogen chloride. The big risks were in handling and wind change. The latter was minimized because the airfields being used were surrounded by water and the prevailing winds were fairly constant. there was no doubt that civilians were to be targeted although the plan only mentioned troops.

Among the cities to be destroyed were Yawata, Tobata, Wakamatsu, and Kokura on Kyoshu. Later on, Kagoshima, Nagoya, Osaka, Tokyo, and Yokohama would be attacked. Japanese buildings were mostly of wood and would absorb mustard gas and phosgene making them uninhabitable. Even though the defenders might have gas masks, the use of cyanide would destroy the filters within a short period of time and the poison could be absorbed through the skin or unprotected areas. Gas bombs were to be on the scale of 500 pound high-explosive devices but required little in the way of detonation. They were to be dropped at night.

The Army's Chemical Warfare Service was created after the invasion of Tarawa showed the Japanese would die to the last man rather than surrender. Estimates of casualties in an invasion of the Home Islands (Japan) ranged into the millions. The U.S. Government could not afford such losses politically. Germany had been defeated and everyone knew about Auschwitz and Buchenvald. Truman asked MacArthur for his estimate of the cost of an invasion. MacArthur, who supported an invasion, low-balled the costs at 2-300,000. My uncle thought it would be closer to 500,00 killed and twice that number wounded before the U.S. even got to Tokyo. The remnants of the Japanese Home Army would retreat into the mountains and have to be starved out. War would not end until 1947 or 48 -- assuming no big surprises. The U.S. and Germany were working on nuclear weapons and there was no reason to suppose that the Japanese were not privy to German research. The Russians firmly believed that the Japanese were at work on an atomic bomb and that was one reason why they delayed declaring war until they were certain that the Japanese did not have time to deploy a bomb before the Russians could overwhelm them.

Using poison gas was disclaimed as being a way to save American lives. In April, 1944, my uncle produced a report on the Selected Aerial Objectives for Retaliatory Gas Attack on Japan. That Top Secret Report stressed that the goal of the attack was to create the maximum number of (civilian) casualties.... cripple transportation.... and (deny) public services....One goal was to delay the repair of the infrastructure to make targets more vulnerable to conventional attacks -- especially fire bombing. The U.S. had grown to appreciate the effects of fire storm attacks. The thinking was literally that if the victors wrote history, there was no need to explain why something was done if it proceeded from a just objective -- like the destruction of a pernicious empire.

As early as May 1945 the Chicago Tribune carried a headline You Can Cook Them With Gas declaring that the use of poison gas was neither inhumane nor worse than napalm/flame throwers. The stigma could be erased by confining its use to "military" targets. General George C. Marshall wrote Secretary of War Henry Stimson at about the same time that "the character of the weapon is no less humane than phosphorous" and could be confined to those last hold-outs with "no military significance".

In June 1945 the Army's Chemical Warfare Service submitted its Top Secret Report on the poisoning of Japan listing 25 cities for destruction. Casualties "might easily kill 5,000,000 people and injure that many more...." Army planners believed that the Japanese would not evacuate their cities because of the lack of public transport and their willingness to "die in place". Therefore, it was not the Army's fault if the Japanese wanted to keep their factories running.

In June, Admiral Ernest J. King and General Marshall briefed President Truman about the possible use of poison gas during the invasion of Japan. Truman was neither shocked nor supportive, being a veteran of World War One. He also knew something the other two did not. The Atomic Bomb was being readied.

In April of 1944, the Army ordered the production of chemical bombs by the Edgewood Arsenal and at Warners, New York in addition to Dugway, Utah and Bushnell, Florida. Tests were even carried out at Great Lakes Naval Training Center in Chicago, Illinois. By April 1945, over one million rounds of 105 mm shells, bombs, and mines were available and in transit.

The dropping of the Atomic Bomb made all of this useless. But as late as 1975, those 105 mm shells still sat and rusted by Runway One of the Denver Mile High Airport.

My uncle could never bring himself to admit that what he did during the War was as bad as anything the Nazis ever dreamed up. He did, however, decide that military service was not something he was proud of.