War crimes charges filed against General Franks

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Post by Joe »

SO then Durran, if the whole WAR is a war crime, analysing the whole war's status as one giant war crime, is not dealing with actual war crimes? Right...sure thing there buddy...you just keep thinking that. When the war itself is a warcrime, it is perfectly legitimate to show that that is the truth and to demonstrate that it is a war crime. Annd you say it is a bad tactic to use the PROPER TERMINOLOGY simply because it is "legalistic jargo" ohh great idea there. I agree theUN doesnt have a good record of keeping mass murdering nations out of the human rights commission, just look the US has been on it.
The legality of this war is not relevant to this discussion. This is a discussion about actual war crime charges made toward General Franks.

And there is a very important distinction between "illegal war" and "war crime."
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Durran Korr wrote: The legality of this war is not relevant to this discussion. This is a discussion about actual war crime charges made toward General Franks.

And there is a very important distinction between "illegal war" and "war crime."
Also, even if the war was illegal, it would be illegal by the laws of the UN, and Belgium has no jurisdiction.
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Post by Col. Crackpot »

*hmmmm....my bullshit sense it tingling. i forsee congressional legislation....anyone hungry for Freedom Sprouts and Liberty Waffles?
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Post by Axis Kast »

So then rather than make a point of insuring that any charges against our generals/soldiers were frivolous and would be thrown out due to their lack of evidence, we instead just dont join the court that would prosecute us. This is really a case of asking yourself "WHYT is the rest of the world critical of the US military" perhaps it is due to our history of complete disrespect for international laws and the treatiest that we have signed? seriously wouldn't the BETTER answer to have been to..i dont know...not act in such a way that any of these charges taht could happen would have any evidence to support them? Wouldnt that really be the more intelligent and just thing to do?
In case you didn’t notice, the United States does possess legal arms in each of its armed forces tasked with ensuring that the Rules of Engagement are perennially observed.

The real reason we don’t join the World Court is because of the potential for so-called “protest cases,” i.e. the dragging of certain American leaders before Brussels in chains as a result of frivolous or even manufactured accusations on the part of people like Saddam Hussein, Hu Jintao, or Vladimir Putin – which is a very great possibility.

People are critical of the United States Armed Forces because it’s an intelligent thing to do. Play up the evils of the American military and you gain points not merely with your own people and among your own region, but also with the American public. These things are done with the ultimate intention of sparking the same kinds of public animosity for the war effort seen over Vietnam and Iraq.
Yes these other people are war criminals (some) but so are we, and it sure is hypocritical and morally repugnant to hold the rest of the world to a higher standard than the rest of us. For Saddam if we try him the message is that you can get away with crimes if you have a big enough gun to protect you, shouldn't the message that we SHOULD be sending to the world as the lone superpower and thus the people who set the tone of world affairs, be that everyone is accountable for their actions and crimes regardless of how big their guns are? If we wanted to actually act like a superpower and like a civilized country that is the true example of freedom, liberty, justice, and democracy, we should be acting in accordance to the laws that we have agreed to and signed, and should be willing to hand over our criminals to a world court to be prosecuted.

Durran: ok we get it, all comunist leaders are evil mass murdering crazies. Of course you fail to mention Castro's popularity among his people, or perhaps mentioning his predicessor's wonderful human right's history. And can you give us evidence of a planned course of murder by castro, im not talking about famine caused by a bad economic policy, im talking about planned mass killing where the actual intent of the action was to kill a bunch of people?
A big gun will always protect somebody form prosecution whether or not hypocrisy or written law exist. We’re in a position to stand above the law here. I don’t know about you, but no silly emotional argument about moral compunction is going to stop me from keeping my men out of foreign chains – guilty or not. The World Court – like every other institution established by man - is a useful tool; nothing more.

Castro routinely rounds up Cuban AIDS patients for mass murder. It’s his “solution” to the problem. Cubans are routinely tortured or butchered for “counter-revolutionary” opinions. What kind of an apologetic assclown are you?
SO then Durran, if the whole WAR is a war crime, analysing the whole war's status as one giant war crime, is not dealing with actual war crimes? Right...sure thing there buddy...you just keep thinking that. When the war itself is a warcrime, it is perfectly legitimate to show that that is the truth and to demonstrate that it is a war crime. Annd you say it is a bad tactic to use the PROPER TERMINOLOGY simply because it is "legalistic jargo" ohh great idea there. I agree theUN doesnt have a good record of keeping mass murdering nations out of the human rights commission, just look the US has been on it.[/quiote]

Any war is a warcrime according to the United Nations. Our intervention in Kosovo was a war crime because it went unsanctioned. Had we intervened in Rwanda without the United Nations, it would have been technically unacceptable.
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Post by Tom_Aurum »

Think of it this way Kast. If we (the united states) go about too many unsanctioned wars, even with the most powerful military in the world, eventually our actions are going to catch up to us. It is not just international law, it is natural law.
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Post by Axis Kast »

Think of it this way Kast. If we (the united states) go about too many unsanctioned wars, even with the most powerful military in the world, eventually our actions are going to catch up to us. It is not just international law, it is natural law.
Notice that most of the wars we fight are in fact of the "sanctioned" variety. Iraq was an anomaly.

Also try to keep in mind that war is never embarked upon lightly. Nobody goes to war for the hell of it; even George W. Bush and Dick Cheney. Nobody in Washington sanctioned the fight with Iraq on the basis of a last-minute decision no matter how much we’d like to tar all involved. The reasoning went that a short fight now would spare us a long fight down the road. There’s another side to your argument. It’s that the United States, while in a position of power, has a responsibility to prepare as much as possible for the future – militarily or otherwise. And the decisions fall largely in step in the reasoning that even while they might hate us for going to war, the terrorism won’t stop if we hold back. Iraq wasn’t going to shape up if Bush let them off the hook. Communism wasn’t going to go away if we’d just have ignored Ho Chi Minh. For all actions there are a reaction, but the circumstances are always weighed. War is often the best route.
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Post by NapoleonGH »

the US does have the responsability to prepare the future, and creating thousands upon thousands of people who didnt have anything against us, but now hate us with the passion of a burning sun, isnt planning for the future (i refer to the family members of all the civilians we murdered)
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Post by Axis Kast »

the US does have the responsability to prepare the future, and creating thousands upon thousands of people who didnt have anything against us, but now hate us with the passion of a burning sun, isnt planning for the future (i refer to the family members of all the civilians we murdered).
It's impossible to help.

If we don't create enemies in certain situations, we won't be around to ponder the issue next time.
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Post by Axis Kast »

Not to mention that you need to learn to distinguish between those who can harm us only on their own turf or not at all (i.e. the Vietnamese and Iraqis) and those who can necessarily do us ill anytime and in anyplace (i.e. the Soviets and al-Qaeda).
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Post by NapoleonGH »

See axis, your answer to people wanting to kill us is to kill all of them first.

My answer is, to stop acting like pricks and giving people reasons to try to kill us.
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Post by phongn »

NapoleonGH wrote:See axis, your answer to people wanting to kill us is to kill all of them first.

My answer is, to stop acting like pricks and giving people reasons to try to kill us.
Unfortunately, merely existing is enough reason for some people to want to kill us.
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Post by NapoleonGH »

yes yes, and everyone is jealous of us and THAT is why they attack us, it has NOTHING to do with the years of abuse, tyranny, and bullying that we subjected these people to consistantly...

Time to turn on your Reality mode,
people hate the US because we have been royally fucking them for decades, period. We have gotten involved in their private internal matters, destroying democratic and popular governments and replacing them with bourgeois and aristocratic tyrannical petty dictatorships that brutally oppress their own people. And that is only the start, You are deluding yourself if you think that any of the anti-us sentiment in the world today is to be blamed on anyone or thing other than US foreign policy.
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Post by phongn »

NapoleonGH wrote:yes yes, and everyone is jealous of us and THAT is why they attack us, it has NOTHING to do with the years of abuse, tyranny, and bullying that we subjected these people to consistantly...
Thank you for completely misinterpreting my statement.

Did I say that the US is always innocent? No. Did I say that everyone who has something against the United States does it merely because we exist? Certainly not.

Instead, there are some groups - like militant Islamofascists - who find Western culture such an anethma that they will fight against it and especially any percieved intrusions into their own lands. Does American foreign and domestic policy come into play? Certainly: our relative freedom and secular state are two pieces of domestic policy that they loathe; our stationing of 'infidel' troops in the Middle East is a piece of foreign policy that has particularly enraged them since the start of the 1990s.
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Post by NapoleonGH »

do you really think that the true motivation behind al queda has anything to do with religion? It is politics, bin ladin is in it to try to bring down the house of saud and get the american troops out of saudi.
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Post by Axis Kast »

See axis, your answer to people wanting to kill us is to kill all of them first.

My answer is, to stop acting like pricks and giving people reasons to try to kill us.
Some actions are indelible. The ink of history cannot be removed – merely cut out.

“Acting like pricks?” That’s subjective. The old adage: “If I don’t do it, somebody else will,” is a maxim of geopolitics. A constant. Bush’s aides, however repugnant to some, are essentially correct. It is competent foreign policy to do now what we will not necessarily be as able to do down the road – even if that means engendering hatred or suspicion.

Again, you’re missing the point that certain people cannot effectively strike back. Vietnam, Cuba, and Libya all come to mind. Even Iraq was impotent to carry the war outside the Middle East. We can – for all intents and purposes – make far more enemies with far greater impunity than you realize.
yes yes, and everyone is jealous of us and THAT is why they attack us, it has NOTHING to do with the years of abuse, tyranny, and bullying that we subjected these people to consistantly...

Time to turn on your Reality mode,
people hate the US because we have been royally fucking them for decades, period. We have gotten involved in their private internal matters, destroying democratic and popular governments and replacing them with bourgeois and aristocratic tyrannical petty dictatorships that brutally oppress their own people. And that is only the start, You are deluding yourself if you think that any of the anti-us sentiment in the world today is to be blamed on anyone or thing other than US foreign policy.
Like the years of tyranny and abuse the United States sponsored in Afghanistan. Oh, wait …

Wake up and understand that some of the most potent threats have also been the most unlikely. Baader-Meinhoff were a bunch of bourgeois trust-fund socialists. Osama Bin Laden gained popularity by opposing what only a few years ago was seen as a necessary deployment by Saudi Arabians themselves.

As Phongn struggles to prove to you, certain issues are murky at best. The Middle East has three key problems: (A) a predisposition to embrace Islamofascism and theocratic rule that set themselves against the West even without instigation, (B) a history of corruption in the highest levels that routinely inhibits the growth of meaningful infrastructure for future sustenance, and (C) a mindset of institutional rape. Millions of Arabs know that they are nothing but whipping boys and trading cards for the Western world. Tokens on a game board valued for absence, silence, and ignorance above all else. We cannot step back. The global economy is too reliant on oil to spare these people. No matter what we do, they will hate us.

No. The anti-American sentiment in Europe is a result of a feeling of disenfranchisement with their own limited power in recent years. Nobody wants to play backseat driver to Washington anymore. They’ve got the can-do example of a fledgling European Union and a powerful motivator in Jacques Chirac’s France. They are increasingly jealous of George Bush and his unilateral prerogatives. They are increasingly concerned that our “rash decisions” will cost them something in the long run – all without their input. It’s not because of our foreign policy. It’s because of theirs. Or the lack thereof. It’s plain and simple want by the have-nots.

The anti-American sentiment in Russia? We toppled an empire in 1991. Reagan is the anti-Christ to those people. At least the Soviet Union kept the trains running on time. Hell, the whole reason Putin gets away with closing the doors and pretending he’s moving from within is because of his insistence that Russia do on its own in decades what American money could do in years. There’s a certain pride that comes of potential. There’s also a certain bitterness that comes of past glory now out of reach. Moscow didn’t oppose us because the war was “bad” or “unjust.” They did it because coordinated opposition helps the European Union come to fruition and puts egg on George Bush’s face. They want to see us stumble as badly as anyone.

China? Just like Britain vis a vie Germany c. 1900, the People’s Republic has no other worthy competitor but the United States, anathema to all that the Communist system holds dear. As with Russia, it’s more a matter of clashing giants bound to duke it out than true, meaningful griveances.
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Post by Joe »

NapoleonGH wrote:do you really think that the true motivation behind al queda has anything to do with religion? It is politics, bin ladin is in it to try to bring down the house of saud and get the american troops out of saudi.
How is it, living in that bubble?
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Post by NapoleonGH »

Axis what you call jealousy, i call honest fear. Europe isnt jealous of our unilateral decision making, they are terrified of it, as all free countries should be afraid of the US in the hands of a madman and loose cannon. Bush is just that, a loose cannon, he is inconsistnat, extremely aggressive, willing to resort to violence when it is purely unnecessary, and acting more out of economic interests than anything else.



The US sponsored and supported the Taleban up until 1998, we cheered them on as a righteous government when they tried to stop the opiate trade. we did sponsor years of tyranny in afghanistan.

The middle east does have certian problems, but they arent yours. The current islamic theocratic fundamentalist governments are reactionary against decades and centuries of western domination, islam is what THEY have that is theirs, so they turn to it when they feel the heel of being controled by london (first) and washington and moscow. Not a single islamic theocratic government is antiwest without good cause,at least as far as i know. Iran has certainly every reason to despise the US, syria and lebennon do in that the US supports israel who have stolen territory from each nation. in afghanistan there has been a 200 year history of western oppression and bullshit, the US backing rebels against the legitimate socialist government prior to the soviet invasion was cause. I cannot think of any islamic theocratic states that havnt been given cause to be anti-west and specifically anti-us.

we dont need the oil from that area, at least the US doesnt. furthermore, their is more oil in the caucassis than in saudi arabia, lets just buy our oil from Georgia and Armenia (not from arzarbargian, those people are evil, ok fine my ethnicity is showing threw just a tad)

The quality of life for a person in russia, has it increased or decreased since the fall of Gorbechev's government? If it has decreased, then they have reason to hate us for making their government fall apart as it was reagan's breakneck spending that caused a soviet military build up and destroyed the economy.
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

The US should abandon Gulf oil and replace it with oil from Armenia and Georgia, neither of which hands any reserves of note, but ignore Azerbaijan, which have massive reserves?

The fall of the Soviet Union was a bad thing?

The US supported the Talaban?

Care to back up any of your bullshit?
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Post by Axis Kast »

Axis what you call jealousy, i call honest fear. Europe isnt jealous of our unilateral decision making, they are terrified of it, as all free countries should be afraid of the US in the hands of a madman and loose cannon. Bush is just that, a loose cannon, he is inconsistnat, extremely aggressive, willing to resort to violence when it is purely unnecessary, and acting more out of economic interests than anything else.
Yours is the opinion from one extremely polarized side of the fence.

First of all, Europe has nothing to fear. If they weren’t already breathing guilty relief after the Twin Towers and Pentagon proved the last of al-Qaeda’s September 11th targets, they were certainly doing so in the weeks and months ahead as questions over Afghanistan’s role as a nation-state began to arise. Led by Paris, Europe is similarly more aggressive; this new Rapid Reaction Force about which we’ve been hearing is a sharp break with the Cold War mentality of American protection for old NATO allies. And let’s not forget the spate of lovely knuckle knocking among the Axis of Weasel and certain potential allies such as Turkey.

All free countries should be afraid of invasion by George Bush and the United States military? Give me a break. You don’t see American troops in Syria or Iran, do you? We’re pulling out – not reinforcing – our contingents in Saudi Arabia. Yours is the insistence of somebody who still can’t stomach Al Gore’s defeat and wants nothing more than to validate your own personal embarrassment for American power politics by Europe’s own greasy standards. A pity. If you’re so concerned that America’s on the wrong track, why don’t you pack up and head for Brussels?

“Purely unnecessary?” That’s an opinion, my friend. And as our intelligence services have recently shown, concerns that Iraq was working with al-Qaeda were probably not falsities however much Kofi Annan and the liberal running dogs would have us believe otherwise. Nobody sends security personnel to the Sudan looking for an al-Qaeda representative and considers it a routine milk run. No indeed. Baghdad sought a working relationship. Not to mention that HAMAS and Hizbollah recently went “global;” turns out some of their men were in Afghanistan not long ago trying to stir up old al-Qaeda cells. How much longer before Iraq money and training were discovered among the ranks of Palestinian suicide squads?
The US sponsored and supported the Taleban up until 1998, we cheered them on as a righteous government when they tried to stop the opiate trade. we did sponsor years of tyranny in afghanistan.
Indirectly. We sponsored the Mudjaheen, a group of rebels fighting the Soviets. What they did was their own business until al-Qaeda came to our shores.
The middle east does have certian problems, but they arent yours. The current islamic theocratic fundamentalist governments are reactionary against decades and centuries of western domination, islam is what THEY have that is theirs, so they turn to it when they feel the heel of being controled by london (first) and washington and moscow. Not a single islamic theocratic government is antiwest without good cause,at least as far as i know. Iran has certainly every reason to despise the US, syria and lebennon do in that the US supports israel who have stolen territory from each nation. in afghanistan there has been a 200 year history of western oppression and bullshit, the US backing rebels against the legitimate socialist government prior to the soviet invasion was cause. I cannot think of any islamic theocratic states that havnt been given cause to be anti-west and specifically anti-us.
It’s one thing to justify and another to suggest we should walk out entirely. So you’re telling me you not only understand where the Islamofascists are coming from and think their activities are halfway acceptable, but that you support the jist of their message that the West should disengage?

“Legitimate” socialist government? Please. It was a Soviet puppet.
we dont need the oil from that area, at least the US doesnt. furthermore, their is more oil in the caucassis than in saudi arabia, lets just buy our oil from Georgia and Armenia (not from arzarbargian, those people are evil, ok fine my ethnicity is showing threw just a tad)

The quality of life for a person in russia, has it increased or decreased since the fall of Gorbechev's government? If it has decreased, then they have reason to hate us for making their government fall apart as it was reagan's breakneck spending that caused a soviet military build up and destroyed the economy.
George and Armenia are too unstable and lack the same kind of infrastructure that makes the Near East quite so lucrative. Not to mention that the both of them are too close to Russia and too enmeshed in CIS power politics to be of much strategic help anyway.

They have reason to dislike us. That doesn’t mean we did the wrong thing from our point of view. I find it absolutely amazing how you are willing to justify anything anti-American out of sympathy for the same people that would just as soon kill as embrace you as their advocate. You’re a fucking apologist shitbag.
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Post by BoredShirtless »

Axis Kast wrote:And as our intelligence services have recently shown, concerns that Iraq was working with al-Qaeda were probably not falsities however much Kofi Annan and the liberal running dogs would have us believe otherwise.
A working relationship was found between Iraq and Al-Qaeda? Source please.
Axis Kast wrote: Not to mention that HAMAS and Hizbollah recently went “global;” turns out some of their men were in Afghanistan not long ago trying to stir up old al-Qaeda cells.
Source?
Axis Kast wrote: They have reason to dislike us.
Ok, keeping that in mind and moving to your next sentence:
Axis Kast wrote: That doesn’t mean we did the wrong thing from our point of view.
Wrong. Terroists flew planes into your buildings. From any point of view (not just yours), clearly that's a bad thing, and it must be noted that if it wasn't for the reasons to dislike you you so freely admitted you gave them, they wouldn't have any reason to do it.

Therefore you DID do the wrong thing, even from your point of view. Seems like you're failing to credit Arabs with the following: the ability to remember past events. This is not a race, but a species trait.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Islamics hate the US because of Israel and secularism. They also dislike Europe for conquering them.

Europeans hate the US because they used to dominate the world, and now the US has taken over that job. It is not as ruthless as Europe was in its day, but it is ruthless enough for them to criticize its actions.

Africans are lost in a world of their own troubles.

Asians don't really hate the US; they want to emulate its economic success.

Canada doesn't really hate the US, but we get angry when our "big brother" keeps telling us what to do.
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Post by Knife »

Ok, just stepping in to throw in my 2 peso's;
=NapoleanGH wrote: Axis what you call jealousy, i call honest fear. Europe isnt jealous of our unilateral decision making, they are terrified of it, as all free countries should be afraid of the US in the hands of a madman and loose cannon. Bush is just that, a loose cannon, he is inconsistnat, extremely aggressive, willing to resort to violence when it is purely unnecessary, and acting more out of economic interests than anything else.
Bush is neither mad nor a loose cannon. You can ease your ego and elitism with such foolish sloganism and utter bullshit but your and others diagreement with his ideology and decisions does not make him mad or a loose cannon.

Europe does not fear our military and they don't fear our foreign policy decisions (they might not like it, but it is not fear of us that motivates them). They fear the diminishing power base that they have. They're inability to maniputlate events in political, social, and military events is what is scaring them. What pisses them off, is that at one time their proud countries could dictate such edicts to not only their own people but to thousands if not millions around the world. Now shit could come all the way around in a circle and they (pick a European country ie. France, Germany, UK, even Russian) could be back on top of the heap, but for the powerbrokers in these nations right now, the lack of actual power is just getting in their shorts and they loathe the one's who can weild such power.
The US sponsored and supported the Taleban up until 1998, we cheered them on as a righteous government when they tried to stop the opiate trade. we did sponsor years of tyranny in afghanistan.
Hmmm, first we helped them fight off the USSR. Our enemy and their enemy. When the war was over, power plays between rebel groups created warlords and eventualy (with Pakistans help) the Taliban. Our involvment at that point was to help feed the people of Afganistan and not to support the Taliban. In fact, IIRC, the US did not reconise the Taliban as the legitimat goverment of Afganistan. We sponsored shit. Your asserstion is that the French are liable for our escursions in Mexico or the Native Americans because they helped us in the Revolutionary War. We helped them fight the USSR, then let them make their own country. I did not work out well for us, but we are not directly responsible for the Taliban. If we did not intervene, would the USSR have won the war? What would have been the situation there now? The rebel's would still be fighting a terrorist/guerrilla war and the people would be oppressed. IMHO. After the fall of the USSR, the Taliban or something like it would have still taken over.
The middle east does have certian problems, but they arent yours. The current islamic theocratic fundamentalist governments are reactionary against decades and centuries of western domination, islam is what THEY have that is theirs, so they turn to it when they feel the heel of being controled by london (first) and washington and moscow. Not a single islamic theocratic government is antiwest without good cause,at least as far as i know. Iran has certainly every reason to despise the US, syria and lebennon do in that the US supports israel who have stolen territory from each nation. in afghanistan there has been a 200 year history of western oppression and bullshit, the US backing rebels against the legitimate socialist government prior to the soviet invasion was cause. I cannot think of any islamic theocratic states that havnt been given cause to be anti-west and specifically anti-us.
Its a double edged sword, with out the $ from oil sales, the region would be a tribal nightmare circa the middleages. With the sale of oil, the countries have the cash to drag their country kicking and screaming into the modern age. Unfortunately, it is also ripe for corruption at a monumental scale. And you are fooling yourself if you think that Bin Ladden will stop if we pull out of the ME. He invisions himself as the next prophet and wants to unite the Musslim world into his little empire. We are a means to an end.
we dont need the oil from that area, at least the US doesnt. furthermore, their is more oil in the caucassis than in saudi arabia, lets just buy our oil from Georgia and Armenia (not from arzarbargian, those people are evil, ok fine my ethnicity is showing threw just a tad)
We have enough oil here in the States to cover us for quite a while. Unfortunately, the same people who rant and rave about are involvment in the ME usualy are the same ones who rant and rave when we want to drill in the USA.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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phongn
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Post by phongn »

NapoleonGH wrote:do you really think that the true motivation behind al queda has anything to do with religion? It is politics, bin ladin is in it to try to bring down the house of saud and get the american troops out of saudi.
You reach out for the truth and some so close. Then you draw away.

Osama bin Laden wants do bring down the House of Saud and kick our troops out for religious purposes. At its heart, this is not an issue merely of politics, but of religion, specifically Wahhabi Islam in its most conservative and militant facets.

He does not desire merely power over the Middle East. He desires Islamic power over the Middle East.
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Sea Skimmer
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

Knife wrote:
Hmmm, first we helped them fight off the USSR. Our enemy and their enemy. When the war was over, power plays between rebel groups created warlords and eventualy (with Pakistans help) the Taliban.
The Talaban never fought the Soviets and never received US support. They spent the whole war in camps in Pakistan. The groups that the US did support became the Northern Alliance and a few other groups.
"This cult of special forces is as sensible as to form a Royal Corps of Tree Climbers and say that no soldier who does not wear its green hat with a bunch of oak leaves stuck in it should be expected to climb a tree"
— Field Marshal William Slim 1956
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Knife
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Post by Knife »

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Knife wrote:
Hmmm, first we helped them fight off the USSR. Our enemy and their enemy. When the war was over, power plays between rebel groups created warlords and eventualy (with Pakistans help) the Taliban.
The Talaban never fought the Soviets and never received US support. They spent the whole war in camps in Pakistan. The groups that the US did support became the Northern Alliance and a few other groups.
My bad for not expressing myself well enough. I meant that the Afgan people (rebels to be exact) recieved US support and after the war with the USSR, the rebel bands split up into various warlords, and the elements of the Northern Allience and the Taliban were amongst the splinter groups.

Pakistan, IIRC, has more to do with the birth and survival of the Taliban than the US ever did or has been accused of.
They say, "the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots." I suppose it never occurred to them that they are the tyrants, not the patriots. Those weapons are not being used to fight some kind of tyranny; they are bringing them to an event where people are getting together to talk. -Mike Wong

But as far as board culture in general, I do think that young male overaggression is a contributing factor to the general atmosphere of hostility. It's not SOS and the Mess throwing hand grenades all over the forum- Red
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