tax cuts for the rich

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Perinquus
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Post by Perinquus »

NapoleonGH wrote:If i were to support any form of tax change, i would say tax the rich more, and reduce the taxation of the middle class. It is the middle and upper middle class who are the largest and most constant consumers in our markets for the majority of products, by giving them more capital, they will be able to buy more, giving companies more money, thus giving the rich enough money to afford increased taxes. I call this the "trickle up" effect.
This would be a bad policy. In fact it is proven to be bad policy. India did it just this way for decades after achieving independence from British rule - tax the wealthiest citizens very heavily and regulate business strongly so as to increase revenues from that source. It kept India poor. It wasn't until they changed this and decreased both government regulation of businesses and heavy taxation of their wealthiest citizens that they began to turn their economy around.

The same thing has happened in numerous third world countries - harsh and confiscatory taxation programs result in a poor economy. They stay third world countries because their economic policies create poverty, not wealth.

People work to improve their lot in life. If you tax the shit out of successful people, you take away the incentive for people to make themselves successful. When people lose the incentive to make themselves successful, they stop being productive and the economy suffers.

What you are advocating is a socialist-style redistribution of wealth scheme. It won't work any better than it has anywhere else it's already been tried. You'd think the fall of communism, and the degree to which non-communist, socialist economies have been forces to roll back their socialist programs would tell people something. It never ceases to amaze me how impervious some people are to the lessons of history.
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Post by NapoleonGH »

no im advocating for reverse reaganomics, and nothing really sever. Buisniesses must be regulated to a point, mostly to prevent them from f*cking the environment, beyond that i really have little problem with letting buisnesses be run properly. BUt i also see that the people who buy the most products are the middle class, so if you have to give a tax cut, give it to the middle class, while maintaining the taxation of the rich, as they can afford to shell out 30% of their income, but the people who really need to tax cuts all along are those that are right at the bottom of each tax bracket, who just barely make enough for that larger % and actually feel it alot more than those at the upper end of the tax bracket. So say those at the bottom 10% of each bracket should get a tax cut if anyone should.

Personally they should take the current taxes, leave them as is, pay off the debt fast before we go bankrupt, fix social security, fix education, provide more money for research, and institute nationalized health care, while reducing the military spending by cutting certain areas, like most of the ballistic missile subs, maybe 2 carrier battle groups, and some of the nuclear ICBMs(we dont need 8000 nukes anymore).
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Post by The Albino Raven »

I have absolutely no qualms for making the rich pay more taxes for a number of reasons. First of all, they make considerably more money, which means they should be held accountable for a greater sum of taxes. Secondly, many in the upper class find ways and loopholes for taxbreaks anyways, do I don't see why they should they should be helped to pay even less by giving them more tax cuts. Trickle-down economics obviously didnt work during the 1980's, so I don't see why it would work any better now.
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Post by The Albino Raven »

I have absolutely no qualms for making the rich pay more taxes for a number of reasons. First of all, they make considerably more money, which means they should be held accountable for a greater sum of taxes. Secondly, many in the upper class find ways and loopholes for taxbreaks anyways, do I don't see why they should they should be helped to pay even less by giving them more tax cuts. Trickle-down economics obviously didnt work during the 1980's, so I don't see why it would work any better now.
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Post by Joe »

Personally they should take the current taxes, leave them as is, pay off the debt fast before we go bankrupt, fix social security, fix education, provide more money for research, and institute nationalized health care, while reducing the military spending by cutting certain areas, like most of the ballistic missile subs, maybe 2 carrier battle groups, and some of the nuclear ICBMs(we dont need 8000 nukes anymore).
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Post by Stormbringer »

Vercingetorix wrote:^^^You seem to seperate the question of whether the rich deserve tax cuts and the question of whether such tax cuts would benefit the economy into two seperate issues. Assuming for the moment that tax cuts to the rich do not stimulate the economy, explain to me why we would want to cut their taxes.
Yeah, I do. Because they pay taxes too. Just because they're rich doesn't mean they're not entitled to their money. That kind of thinking is ridiculous.
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

NapoleonGH wrote: Personally they should take the current taxes, leave them as is, pay off the debt fast before we go bankrupt, fix social security, fix education, provide more money for research, and institute nationalized health care, while reducing the military spending by cutting certain areas, like most of the ballistic missile subs, maybe 2 carrier battle groups, and some of the nuclear ICBMs(we dont need 8000 nukes anymore).
What an incredibly stupid idea.
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Post by Andrew J. »

Tax cuts for the rich aren't bad if they're done right; if they're overdone they could create a negative backlash toward the government, and therefore hurt the economy.
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Post by theski »

The rich pay a ton of taxes and here is the data
The IRS has released the year 2000 data for individual income tax returns. The numbers illustrate a truth that will startle you: that half of Americans with the highest incomes pays 96.09% of all income tax. This nukes the liberal lie that the rich don't pay taxes. The top 1%, who earn 20.81% of all income covered under the income tax, are paying 37.42% of the federal tax bite.





*Data covers calendar year 2000, not fiscal year 2000 - and includes all income, not just wages, excluding Social Security



Think of it this way: less than four dollars out of every $100 paid in income taxes in the United States is paid by someone in the bottom 50% of wage earners. Are the top half millionaires? Noooo, more like "thousandaires." The top 50% were those individuals or couples filing jointly who earned $26,000 and up in 1999. (The top 1% earned $293,000-plus.) Americans who want to are continuing to improve their lives - and those who don't want to, aren't. Here are the wage earners in each category and the percentages they pay:

Top 5% - 56.47% of all income taxes; Top 10% - 67.33% of all income taxes; Top 25% - 84.01% of all income taxes. Top 50% - 96.09% of all income taxes. The bottom 50%? They pay a paltry 3.91% of all income taxes. The top 1% is paying more than ten times the federal income taxes than the bottom 50%! And who earns what? The top 1% earns 20.81% of all income. The top 5% earns 35.30% of the pie. The top 10% earns 46.01%; the top 25% earns 67.15%, and the top 50% earns 87.01% of all the income.

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Post by Stravo »

By the way LISTEN to the democrats when they spout their tax cuts for the rich analysis. They say that the tax cuts will most BENEFIT the top 1% NOT That solely the top 1% are getting taxed at the highest rate.

I am being taxed at the highest rate and I am tipping the scales a tad short of 6 figures, SO what does that tell you? The vast majority of MIDDLE CLASS families are getting kicked in the balls and the tax relief that would help them is being denied because it would most BENEFIT the top 1%....welll no fucking shit sherlock, if you have DOnald Trump making millions and me, a 5% tax cut will ALWAYS benefit him more because he always had more to begin with.

Maybe $5000 extra bucks in your pocket doesn't sound like much to the fat cats up in DC but it sure as hell means a shit load to me.
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Post by StimNeuro »

I would prefer to increase taxes on the lower income group, while lessening it for the middle and upper income groups. If you want to institute an income tax, at least make a set ammount across the board. Don't make a special group of people(the bottom 50% of the nation) who are either paying such a small percentage that it doesn't matter or are exempt from paying taxes at all. This is obviously a naive approach(how else will the politicians be able to buy votes?) but it seems, to me at least, to be the most 'fair'. By the way Napolean, Reagonomics actually worked...
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Post by Ted »

It is better for the government to give tax cuts to the lower income people.

If you gave tax cuts to the upper 1%, you would loose a lot more revenue than if you gave a tax cut to the rest.

As well, giving a tax cut to those who earn less than 40K allows them to live. Hell, its damn hard here in Canada to live well on 55K a year, harder still if you have more than one kid.
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Post by Next of Kin »

I would prefer to increase taxes on the lower income group, while lessening it for the middle and upper income groups.
How much more blood can you squeeze from a rock? I'm weary of tax cuts becuase especially during election time as reduced taxes in one area might mean an increase in another area.
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Post by TrailerParkJawa »

Stravo wrote:By the way LISTEN to the democrats when they spout their tax cuts for the rich analysis. They say that the tax cuts will most BENEFIT the top 1% NOT That solely the top 1% are getting taxed at the highest rate.

I am being taxed at the highest rate and I am tipping the scales a tad short of 6 figures, SO what does that tell you? The vast majority of MIDDLE CLASS families are getting kicked in the balls and the tax relief that would help them is being denied because it would most BENEFIT the top 1%....welll no fucking shit sherlock, if you have DOnald Trump making millions and me, a 5% tax cut will ALWAYS benefit him more because he always had more to begin with.

Maybe $5000 extra bucks in your pocket doesn't sound like much to the fat cats up in DC but it sure as hell means a shit load to me.
Its worse when you are making 100,000 in a market like Santa Clara county where the medium home price is 500,000. So even at your wage, you have to struggle just to buy a modest, middle class home on the resale market.

I still think the best way to help everyone is to reduce payroll taxes or the personal deduction.
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Post by Xisiqomelir »

SyntaxVorlon wrote: But I digress. My point is that the wealthy aren't really going to contribute all of that money back into the system, they're going to save it as long as they can in offshore accounts so that they can manuever around inheritance taxes.
Generalise much?
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Post by TrailerParkJawa »

Xisiqomelir wrote:
SyntaxVorlon wrote: But I digress. My point is that the wealthy aren't really going to contribute all of that money back into the system, they're going to save it as long as they can in offshore accounts so that they can manuever around inheritance taxes.
Generalise much?
Really weathly people, and most upper middle class for that matter, put their holdings into a trust to avoid inheritance taxes. I dont think too many are putting it overseas for that reason.
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Post by KrauserKrauser »

/Sarcasm on

Yeah! Lets increase taxes on the rich. Let's take all their ill gotten gains, cause you know anyone making more money than you must be cheating, and give it to everyone else. They didn't earn anything through their hard work. They don't get to benefit from their drive and determination.

Never realize that the highest 10% of income earners in the country pay over 50% of the taxes so any equal decrease in the will give them a larger sum of tax money returned but proportional to the amount of income they make.

Everyone deserves the fruit of the upper earner's loins cause God knows they have no clue how to spend and invest it, surely the government knows how to better distribute the wealth to get them all re-elected.

/Sarcasm off

Whenever tax cuts are concerned there are many factors to consider:

1) Not everyone is subject to the tax so not everyone is going to see the benefit of the tax cut, makes sense don't it?

2) The people that pay more in taxes will get more money back from a tax cut, simple fact of nature.

3) Not all of the lower/middle class beneficiaries of the tax cut will spend it. Ever heard of 401k programs? Retirement funds? Are you saying that these people don't know the benefits of long term investment? People aren't stupid, they don't all go out and blow their tax cut benfits on consumer goods, saying that they will because you think they will is quite presumptious.

Lots of people want handouts. Just because they think that other people earn too much and they don't earn enough is never justification for bringing others down. Share and share alike only goes so far, hopefully people realize that tax money is money that people have already earned and has been taken by the government. It is still their money.
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Post by Joe »

Sea Skimmer wrote:
NapoleonGH wrote: Personally they should take the current taxes, leave them as is, pay off the debt fast before we go bankrupt, fix social security, fix education, provide more money for research, and institute nationalized health care, while reducing the military spending by cutting certain areas, like most of the ballistic missile subs, maybe 2 carrier battle groups, and some of the nuclear ICBMs(we dont need 8000 nukes anymore).
What an incredibly stupid idea.
Incidentally, why is the military the only thing that gets cut here? Guess what, captain, the primary purpose of the federal government is not healthcare, it is not education, it is not income security, it is not funding science and the arts, it is DEFENDING THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. That takes precedence over everything else.
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Post by TrailerParkJawa »

KrauserKrauser wrote: 3) Not all of the lower/middle class beneficiaries of the tax cut will spend it. Ever heard of 401k programs? Retirement funds? Are you saying that these people don't know the benefits of long term investment? People aren't stupid, they don't all go out and blow their tax cut benfits on consumer goods, saying that they will because you think they will is quite presumptious.
401K's and Traditional IRA's are pretax investments. A tax cut wont boost investments in these vehicles. We actually do want people to go out and spend it on consumer items. Especially the middle class.
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Post by Joe »

TrailerParkJawa wrote:
KrauserKrauser wrote: 3) Not all of the lower/middle class beneficiaries of the tax cut will spend it. Ever heard of 401k programs? Retirement funds? Are you saying that these people don't know the benefits of long term investment? People aren't stupid, they don't all go out and blow their tax cut benfits on consumer goods, saying that they will because you think they will is quite presumptious.
401K's and Traditional IRA's are pretax investments. A tax cut wont boost investments in these vehicles. We actually do want people to go out and spend it on consumer items. Especially the middle class.
Not all investments are pretax, and our tax code is quite biased towards those risky 401Ks. If it wasn't, in fact, I don't think we would have seen quite as much folks losing their retirement at Enron after the company went belly-up.
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Post by TrailerParkJawa »

Durran Korr wrote:Not all investments are pretax, and our tax code is quite biased towards those risky 401Ks. If it wasn't, in fact, I don't think we would have seen quite as much folks losing their retirement at Enron after the company went belly-up.
Thats true, not all investments are pre-tax. Im just pointing out that tax cut does not increase pre-tax investing.

A lot of the Enron employee's invested too much money into their own company's stock and broke basic rules of risk management. Im not excusing the behavior of the scum at the top of the company, but the employees do bear some responsibility. The key is to make sure your porfolio is well balanced, although some companies have cheesy 401k plans that make that difficult.
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Post by Joe »

Those Enron 401ks were wildly overinflated due to Enron's stock price. I bet an analysis of them now would show that the employees hadn't lost too much beyond their original investment. After all, trusting financial statements reporting a PE Ratio of 500 ought to have some consequences...
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Post by Knife »

Ted wrote:It is better for the government to give tax cuts to the lower income people.

If you gave tax cuts to the upper 1%, you would loose a lot more revenue than if you gave a tax cut to the rest.

As well, giving a tax cut to those who earn less than 40K allows them to live. Hell, its damn hard here in Canada to live well on 55K a year, harder still if you have more than one kid.
One has to pay taxes to get a tax break. A 10% break of 0 is still zero.
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Post by Vercingetorix »

Yeah, I do. Because they pay taxes too. Just because they're rich doesn't mean they're not entitled to their money. That kind of thinking is ridiculous.
Well this is an interesting claim. You say that people are "entitled" to their money. It's difficult for me to understand exactly what you mean by this. Obviously, people aren't entitled to all of their money, or else we could have no taxes and no government, and civilization would collapse around our ears. So the conclusion is, people are only entitled to some of their money. Now, the question is, how do we determine how much money they should be allowed to keep?
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Post by Perinquus »

Vercingetorix wrote:
Yeah, I do. Because they pay taxes too. Just because they're rich doesn't mean they're not entitled to their money. That kind of thinking is ridiculous.
Well this is an interesting claim. You say that people are "entitled" to their money. It's difficult for me to understand exactly what you mean by this. Obviously, people aren't entitled to all of their money, or else we could have no taxes and no government, and civilization would collapse around our ears. So the conclusion is, people are only entitled to some of their money. Now, the question is, how do we determine how much money they should be allowed to keep?
Wrong, wrong, WRONG! Try turning that around to "how much shoud the government be allowed to take". I refuse to accept the premise that someone else somehow has a higher moral claim to that which was produced by the sweat of my brow. Taxes, government, all of that exist as a social contract. In a government of, by, and for the people, power is supposed to flow from the people up. We the people elect representatives to serve our interests, and through them we the people determine how much government regulation we will accept and what burden of taxation we will willingly bear. We determine how much of our freedom we will trade off for law, order and security, and we the people set the limits, not the government. That's how it's meant to work in theory at least. Government of the people, by the people, and for the people - or had you forgotten?

It seems you have since you speak of us not being entitled to the fruits of our own labors, and of the government allowing us to keep a portion of it. You've got it ass backwards. The very most important principle upon which this country was founded was that government doesn't allow the people, the people allow the government.

You see that's what really, really worries me about people on the left, they really, honestly, and no shit do think in terms of an elite of caretakers who will make the decisions and who will dictate how things will be for everyone else, and what people will be allowed to keep. They put the authority from the top down, not from the bottom up. Their mindset, their fundamental worldview is to put their prioroties in precisely the order you put them - government allows us, not we allow the government. To people like myself, who are of a more libertarian mindset, this is rather chilling.

There was a time when government existed without an income tax at all. All revenues came from tariffs and sales taxes and so forth. I'm not sure it's possible to revert to that state of affairs, but right now we do spend entirely too much to support a bloated federal bureaucracy and a large number of wasteful pork barrel programs.
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