Who shot John F. Kennedy?

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-08-10 08:21pm

I'm leaning towards the version presented in Oliver Stone's "JFK", though I think the higher-level setup in that was overplayed to a minor degree.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-08-10 11:41pm

Come on! The man has been dead for almost 40 years! Does it really matter anymore?

Post by **AdmiralKanos** » 2003-08-10 11:52pm

Oh, for fuck's sake. Must an Oliver Stone movie be used as fucking historical evidence? Please see http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm which presents photographic evidence showing that the conspiracy theorists' claims are bullshit.

The conspiracy theorists use the oldest trick in the book: they simply lie about what happened in order to make it look as if the accepted explanation is impossible. The fact that most Americans believe them is similar to the reason so many Americans believe in creationism: excessive credulity and a perverse desire to attack official explanations.

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2003-08-11 12:45am

Aren't there theories that Lyndon Johnson ordered the assassination?

As for my guess, it was probably a/some man/men or a/some woman/women, maybe a combination of both genders, sentinent, and a resident of this universe.

Post by **weemadando** » 2003-08-11 12:52am

AdmiralKanos wrote:Oh, for fuck's sake. Must an Oliver Stone movie be used as fucking historical evidence? Please see http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm which presents photographic evidence showing that the conspiracy theorists' claims are bullshit.

The conspiracy theorists use the oldest trick in the book: they simply lie about what happened in order to make it look as if the accepted explanation is impossible. The fact that most Americans believe them is similar to the reason so many Americans believe in creationism: excessive credulity and a perverse desire to attack official explanations.

Hey - I said I lean towards the theory presented in the movie. Not that the movie itself was the gospel truth.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-08-11 04:33am

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi wrote:Aren't there theories that Lyndon Johnson ordered the assassination?

Everyone has been implicated at one time or another. I was implicated last year, my not being alive was just a cover.

Hamel · Post by **Hamel** » 2003-08-11 05:35am

Red Lobster killed JFK. The evidence is in my doggy bag.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-08-11 09:58am

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi wrote:Aren't there theories that Lyndon Johnson ordered the assassination?.

But doesn't this violate Occam's Razor?

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2003-08-11 12:34pm

Simon H.Johansen wrote:
Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi wrote:Aren't there theories that Lyndon Johnson ordered the assassination?.
But doesn't this violate Occam's Razor?

Theories in general violate it.

Joe Momma · Post by **Joe Momma** » 2003-08-11 12:55pm

Gandalf wrote:Everyone has been implicated at one time or another. I was implicated last year, my not being alive was just a cover.

I call bullshit on your "I wasn't alive at the time" defense. That just shows how clever an assassin you are.

-- Joe Momma

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2003-08-11 12:57pm

My take on this is "Why should we give a shit?" The guy's dead, let him rest in peace for fuck's sake...

Post by **Lagmonster** » 2003-08-11 01:22pm

I can't figure out why noone ever went with the 'random disgruntled lunatic who happened to get away with it' theorem.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-08-11 01:25pm

HemlockGrey wrote:Come on! The man has been dead for almost 40 years! Does it really matter anymore?

Oh come on, Star Wars and Star Trek are just fantasy. Does it really matter?

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-08-11 01:44pm

AdmiralKanos wrote:The fact that most Americans believe them is similar to the reason so many Americans believe in creationism: excessive credulity and a perverse desire to attack official explanations.

The entire thing is just fishy, what with Oswald managing to score a hit
on a moving target with one of the shittiest rifles in existence - and this
was a guy who had poor marksmanship records in the USMC....

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-08-11 01:54pm

Two things that really disturbed me were the magic bullet theory - one bullet making something like sevem wounds in two different people, at one point making something like a 90degree turn during its travels and coming out of it fairly intact and undamaged.

and

The Zubruder film which shows the impact driving the president's head backwards instead of forwards if he were truly hit from behind.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-08-11 02:01pm

Stravo wrote:Two things that really disturbed me were the magic bullet theory - one bullet making something like sevem wounds in two different people, at one point making something like a 90degree turn during its travels and coming out of it fairly intact and undamaged.

Except that all of that is bullshit. See the pictures on the site I linked to earlier: the conspiracy theorists distort the relative positions of the people sitting in the car in order to make the bullet's trajectory seem impossible (JFK was sitting toward the side of the car so the guy in front of him was actually offset rather than being directly in front of him), they used a hand-drawn not-to-scale autopsy sketch for scaling evidence of the bullet trajectory rather than the numerical dimensions written down in the autopsy report, and they always show pictures of the "undamaged" bullet from the side rather than end-on, because the end-on picture shows that it is hardly pristine.

The Zubruder film which shows the impact driving the president's head backwards instead of forwards if he were truly hit from behind.

The momentum of an assault-rifle bullet is very small, particularly since not all of it is even transferred to the victim (hence the fact that it passes through the body without stopping). The muscle reactions of the target will overwhelm the momentum of the bullet.

Don't let the conspiracy nutjobs hoodwink you.

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2003-08-11 02:20pm

It wasn't an assault rifle, it was a bolt action something or other shitty ass gun. You simply shouldn't be able to fire at that speed, with that accuracy, unless you are an expert marksman, something that Oswald showed he wasn't. Thats the big thing.
Most people don't believe conspiracy, just that the official story is not right.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-08-11 02:21pm

Dark Hellion wrote:It wasn't an assault rifle, it was a bolt action something or other shitty ass gun.

Not just a bolt action, one of the shittiest bolt actions in existence - the
Italian Mannlicher-Carcano with a $10 dollar scope.

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2003-08-11 02:28pm

Don't those things jam like 1 outta every 5 bullets as well?

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2003-08-11 02:28pm

not to mentiuon the Body of Oswald was shorter I believe than what military records had of him and was missing a scar or two

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-08-11 04:55pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Dark Hellion wrote:It wasn't an assault rifle, it was a bolt action something or other shitty ass gun.
Not just a bolt action, one of the shittiest bolt actions in existence - the
Italian Mannlicher-Carcano with a $10 dollar scope.

Who cares what kind of rifle it was? Even if he just got a lucky shot, the fact remains that one bullet from behind could have followed the necessary trajectory once we remove their falsehoods, so most of the conspiracy theorists' claims go out the window on that point alone.

Dark Hellion · Post by **Dark Hellion** » 2003-08-11 05:47pm

The problem is that he fired multiple shots, and that he hit with multiple shots. 1 lucky bullet is well and good, but 2 or 3 lucky bullets, fired at a speed with a shitty rifle that most military marksmen would be proud of is simply beyond Oswalds capabilitys. Either he used a different rifle, or someone else did some shooting as well.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-08-11 07:11pm

Dark Hellion wrote:The problem is that he fired multiple shots, and that he hit with multiple shots. 1 lucky bullet is well and good, but 2 or 3 lucky bullets, fired at a speed with a shitty rifle that most military marksmen would be proud of is simply beyond Oswalds capabilitys. Either he used a different rifle, or someone else did some shooting as well.

Either that, or he was simply a better (or luckier) marksman than he was given credit for. It is not physically impossible (ie- the crazy "magic bullet" argument turns out to be a lie), and "the shots were pretty good for a guy who wasn't a great marksman many years before" doesn't sound nearly as strong as "it was physically impossible for the bullet to follow that trajectory", does it?

Axis Kast · Post by **Axis Kast** » 2003-08-11 09:05pm

The arguments against Oswald are:

(A) it was unlikely for him to be able to make such terrifically-aimed shots - especially so quickly;

(B) multiple witnesses report suspicious persons on the grassy knoll, exclusive of Oswald's position;

(C) various organizations had more reason than one single nut - which rapidly becomes "several single nuts" in more complex theories - to kill John F. Kennedy.

I'm still not sure. I like the Mafia argument, but I'm still unsure as to whether I believe they would have had the resources and resolve to strike out at so popular a leader - or any leader at all.

Post by **Steve** » 2003-08-11 09:06pm

I know! Mike shot him.

He'll go back in time and do so to prove that LHO could have made the shot, but in turn prove that LHO didn't do it, and..... *begins insane laughter*

:twisted::twisted::twisted: