Al Franken: A Model for the Left?

LordShaithis · Post by **LordShaithis** » 2003-09-26 02:52am

I wish I were a conservative. I'd quite enjoy watching the political left in this country stumble around in shambles looking for a leader.

Ah well, the Iraq mess will probably cost Shrubby the election, and give the Dems a chance to figure out what the hell they're doing.

Peregrin Toker · Post by **Peregrin Toker** » 2003-09-26 12:32pm

Darth Wong wrote:The Right is much better at presenting a unified front than the Left, probably because of inherent ideological tendencies (the whole "my country, right or wrong" mentality of the neo-cons translates sooo easily into "my leader, right or wrong" and "my party, right or wrong").

Can't the left modify that mentality into something similar when applied to their own ideology?? (eg. "For the greater good, right or wrong" or "for the Proletariat, right or wrong")

BTW - as the nearest old-school communist will tell you, the "My Party Right Or Wrong" mentality is by no means exclusive to the right... but I suppose you know that.

seanrobertson · Post by **seanrobertson** » 2003-09-26 07:19pm

The Kernel wrote:Ann Coulter is more than a bitch, she thinks that every Liberal in America is a traitor. But I'll digress...

Heh.

Yeah. Other than a nice pair of legs, Coulter is pretty fuckin' out there, you know?

I won't bullshit you; I'm pretty conservative. Yet, I hear Coulter talk and I cringe, wince, freeze up--you name it. She's an embarrassment.

This may surprise you, but at the moment Fox News is the most popular news channel on television. Yeah, even more than CNN. Funny isn't it? Franken glazed over the other media outlets in his book, but he was pretty fair to them overall. He at the very least disproved a liberal bias.

FOX is no. one? Wow. I did not know that, no.

By media "outlets," do you mean only radio and printed material?

I'm also a bit unclear on how he can disprove a liberal bias when he glazes over these other outlets. Though FOX is no. one, as you say, it's a relatively new construct, and I doubt its market share is greater than ABC, NBC and CBS's combined.

Anyways, as to Al Gore, I think you are oversimplfying the situation. *snip* It's hard to know what to believe anymore since this has been so overexposed in the media, but I think that if you read Franken's book you will come away with at least a severe distate for how the Florida situation was handled.

Hang on bro: I wasn't trying to state a dilemma; I was simply guessing at what you might be talking about

I will also confess I didn't pay meticulous attention to the FL re-counting. Nonetheless, I am curious: why haven't the Democrats really hammered the Bush camp for these unethical acts? Is the evidence circumstantial, or are they doing as you suggest Gore did and taking the moral high-ground?

P.S.--Glocksman, I'd totally forgotten Gov. Moonbeam, LOL

That was a little before my time...I remember it mentioned in the Democratic primaries in '92, but his term as governor was a little before my time. (His first term started 3 years before I was born

.)

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-09-26 09:01pm

[quote = seanrobertson]
FOX is no. one? Wow. I did not know that, no.

By media "outlets," do you mean only radio and printed material?

I'm also a bit unclear on how he can disprove a liberal bias when he glazes over these other outlets. Though FOX is no. one, as you say, it's a relatively new construct, and I doubt its market share is greater than ABC, NBC and CBS's combined. [/quote]

I'm not sure how it relates to the evening new, but as a 24/7 news channel, Fox News is #1. That's very, very scary.

Franken talks about other news networks (CNN especially) and he does talk about the liberal bias claims. When I say he glossed over I mean that he didn't acuse them of any blatent conservative actions and in fact said that he believed Ted Turner to be a fairly reasonable, ethcially conscious human being (unlike Rupert Murdoch), although he is no longer in command over there.

Hang on bro: I wasn't trying to state a dilemma; I was simply guessing at what you might be talking about

I will also confess I didn't pay meticulous attention to the FL re-counting. Nonetheless, I am curious: why haven't the Democrats really hammered the Bush camp for these unethical acts? Is the evidence circumstantial, or are they doing as you suggest Gore did and taking the moral high-ground?

They haven't attacked them for three reasons as I see it:

1) It didn't work from a PR standpoint. People in America had already made up their minds about Flordia and were calling Gore a sore loser (admit it, we all did

).

2) The Republicans were clever enough not to be too obvious, nor to use their influence in ways that could be traced back directly to Bush. I know this smacks of conspiracy theory, but why don't you read it and decide for yourself? Franken presents some strong evidence.

3) It probably wouldn't have helped and the Democrats were making a big deal about running a clean campaign so it probably would have just made them look bad.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-09-26 09:07pm

Also, this may suprise you as well, but Gore was already being lambasted for things he didn't do. Remember the infamous "I invented the internet" quote? That was taken completely out of context. He actually said that during the 80's he was one of the key politicians that supported the AARPA net program that led to the creation of the internet.

The "love canal" quote was even worse; in this case Gore was being bashed for things he didn't even say. The newspapers that reported the stories issued corrections, but by then it was far too late. Al Gore "said" he invented the internet. That's all people cared about. Journalists don't take responsibility for their inaccuracies, which is one of Franken's main beefs.

Strange too that while Bush was a draft dodger, a business failure and actually ran his car off the road in a drunk driving accident, none of this was focused on by the Democrats during the election. Don't you wonder why?

EmperorChrostas the Cruel · Post by **EmperorChrostas the Cruel** » 2003-09-26 09:55pm

Kernel.
Stop this LIE right here and now. Bush served in the National Guard.
He as never drated.
THEREFORE, he didn't dodger the draft.

You can not dodge, what is not coming at you.
Bush is less a draft dodger than Clinton, with his college deferment.
Clinton is not a draft dodger either, because he wasn't drafted EITHER.They BOTH used LEGITAMATE, legal, and honorable means to avoid being drafted, preemptively. You are confusing folks who defied the law, or left the country, with students and guardsmen.
Is this tough logic, or didn't you know the facts?
Get your fucking facts straight.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-09-26 10:00pm

About the DUI...in a perverse way, I actually think that makes him admirable. No, not because he got the DUI, because he actually PAID it.

Think about it; he was from a rich, well-respected family with connections, his daddy was head of the CIA at the time and could have had that DUI wiped out of existence without much difficulty. But Dubya actually paid it. I don't know how many other politicians would, in his position, actually respect the law and pay the DUI.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-09-27 11:38am

EmperorChrostas the Cruel wrote:Kernel.
Stop this LIE right here and now. Bush served in the National Guard.
He as never drated.
THEREFORE, he didn't dodger the draft.

You can not dodge, what is not coming at you.
Bush is less a draft dodger than Clinton, with his college deferment.
Clinton is not a draft dodger either, because he wasn't drafted EITHER.They BOTH used LEGITAMATE, legal, and honorable means to avoid being drafted, preemptively. You are confusing folks who defied the law, or left the country, with students and guardsmen.
Is this tough logic, or didn't you know the facts?
Get your fucking facts straight.

Don't get all pissed off just yet; I'm well aware of the fact that he was in the Texas National Guard. I should have clarified my statement: he dodged because he joined to avoid the draft, then didn't show up for his duties at the Texas National Guard for over a year. This smacks of draft dodging to me, wouldn't you say? I mean, according to his supervisor at the airbase, he was technically AWOL the ENTIRE YEAR!

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-09-27 11:42am

Durran Korr wrote:About the DUI...in a perverse way, I actually think that makes him admirable. No, not because he got the DUI, because he actually PAID it.

Think about it; he was from a rich, well-respected family with connections, his daddy was head of the CIA at the time and could have had that DUI wiped out of existence without much difficulty. But Dubya actually paid it. I don't know how many other politicians would, in his position, actually respect the law and pay the DUI.

But he did TRY to get rid of it. Not only that, but his campaign manager downplayed the DUI by lying and saying that she believed he had been pulled over once for driving too slowly. Turns out in fact, he was arrested because he actually ran his car off the road.

I don't have a problem with the DUI per se; everyone makes mistakes in their life after all. What pisses me off is the fact that his campaign manager LIED about it. If he had said I don't want to discuss my past, fine. But he shouldn't have lied about something like this when the Republicans were acusing Clinton for years about lying about something that was LEGAL.

Joe · Post by **Joe** » 2003-09-27 11:48am

Don't get all pissed off just yet; I'm well aware of the fact that he was in the Texas National Guard. I should have clarified my statement: he dodged because he joined to avoid the draft, then didn't show up for his duties at the Texas National Guard for over a year. This smacks of draft dodging to me, wouldn't you say?

No, draft dodging is when you have a legal obligation to be a potential draftee and you take measures to evade the law. Bush and Clinton took measures to avoid incurring a legal obligation in this first place. Important difference.

I mean, according to his supervisor at the airbase, he was technically AWOL the ENTIRE YEAR!

Cite thy source.

But he did TRY to get rid of it.

Cite your source, again.

Turns out in fact, he was arrested because he actually ran his car off the road.

Running your car off the road by accident is a criminal offense? I guess that makes me a wanted man.

If he had said I don't want to discuss my past, fine.

Agreed, completely.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2003-09-27 11:55am

Durran Korr wrote:
No, draft dodging is when you have a legal obligation to be a potential draftee and you take measures to evade the law. Bush and Clinton took measures to avoid incurring a legal obligation in this first place. Important difference.
So preemtively joining the National Guard so you won't get drafted, then going AWOL for you term while others are getting drafted is okay?

I mean, according to his supervisor at the airbase, he was technically AWOL the ENTIRE YEAR!
Cite thy source.

Al Franken's Lies and the Lying Liars that Tell Them

But he did TRY to get rid of it.

Cite your source, again.

See above.

Turns out in fact, he was arrested because he actually ran his car off the road.

Running your car off the road by accident is a criminal offense? I guess that makes me a wanted man.

It does if a cop gives you a sobriety test and you fail.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-09-27 12:29pm

It's all right here in fact.

http://www.awolbush.com/

In particular:

These are not particularly controversial facts- the entire list of relevant official ANG etc documents is here and a timeline is as follows

At no time has anyone come forward with any evidence of his service in the guard in the contested period.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-09-27 12:40pm

I loved this:

Colin Powell wrote:"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed... managed to wangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units...Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country." (Colin Powell?s autobiography, My American Journey, p. 148)

(Bush fucked up his test scores to get into the ANG, but used his connections to get in anyway, jumping the waiting list)