Republicans or Democrats?

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Which?

Republicans
26
38%
Democrats
42
62%
 
Total votes: 68

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Joe
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Post by Joe »

One could easily make the case that many of Bush's biggest blunders during his tenure is his obsession with oil.
Oil is the lifeblood of our civilization. He better damn well care about it.
Iraq,
He would have just had the sanctions lifted, if all he wanted was oil.
pulling out of Kyoto
Wouldn't have gone through the Senate anyway. Be realistic.
halting funding/incentives for alternative fuels
Source.
drilling in Alaska,
Take a doormat and a pin. Poke a couple holes here and there with the pin. This is an analogy for the environmental damage that drilling in the frozen, desolate tundra that makes up the bulk of ANWR will cause.
I also think that the repeal of the estate tax as well
The estate tax is devastating to small business and does not generate much federal revenue. There is no reason for it to exist.

Furthermore, the estate tax is set to be repealed in 2010. But by then (or soon after), the Democrats will have come back into power, and the estate tax repeal will be one of the first things to go.
other huge tax breaks for the wealthy are tragic mistakes.
The rich are the ones with the means to invest in new projects and create jobs. They also pay a proportionally larger amount of the taxes than do other groups, so naturally they receive larger tax breaks.
Bush's tax cut turned what might have been a fairly major recession, into one of the worst periods of economic depression since the crash of 1929.
You're not serious, are you? Hoover pushed some gigantic tax hikes and tariffs through Congress when the Great Depression hit, when what he should have done was cut taxes (something even the Keynesians agree with). Likewise, we would probably be in even worse shape without the tax cuts than we are now, and the budget would have grown even more extensively. Prove your assertion that some relatively tiny tax cuts are responsible for the current recession.
Bush had the gall to say that his tax cut was actually HELPING America instead of hurting it. If he had gone on TV and said "I'm sorry, we fucked up" I would have said, okay and let's move on. Sheesh!
Because it did. If you haven't noticed, the market has been recovering.
Jesus H. Christ George, where the hell do you think they got all their money and guns from in the first place?
France, the USSR, and China.

That's hardly an argument for not taking the Hussein regime out. If anything, it strengthens the case, since it makes us partially responsible for it.
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Post by Newtonian Fury »

Durandal wrote:Ditto in Illinois. Ryan left a $2 billion for his legacy, and I barely skated through the kick-in-the-balls that was my school's tuition raise for incoming freshmen.
You can attribute that tuition hike to Blagojeivich. He cut so much funding that the schools had to compensate by raising tuition. It really is kinda funny that for a Dem, he's cutting programs left and right and not raising the taxes.

Of course, if Ryan hadn't left the state in the red, Blagojeivich might not be so fiscally conservative.
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

Durran Korr wrote:
Wouldn't have gone through the Senate anyway. Be realistic.
The senate had already rejected it, as had all of Europe except Romania.
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Post by EmperorSolo51 »

I choose Republican becuase I am botha Social Conservative and a Fiscal Conservative, and I hate anything that is looks even remotely socialistic.
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Post by The Kernel »

Oil is the lifeblood of our civilization. He better damn well care about it.
Don’t you understand the problem with that? Alternative fuels aren’t just a dream; technologies like fuel cells are already becoming practical. GM and Honda were just talking the other day about how they want to take fuel cells beyond the car prototypes and into the home. We have fuel cell laptops that will be available for purchase early next year.

I’m not suggesting a sudden and drastic shift. But don’t you see that by lessening our dependency on petroleum products we can solve so many of our problems? We can reduce pollution, the dwindling petroleum problem and solve the terrorism issue all by reducing our reliance on oil.

Yes even terrorism can be reduced with shifting away from our dependency on oil. Do you remember those stupid commercials saying “Buy drugs, support terrorists!”? These thugs aren’t getting their funding through drugs, they get their money through the oil we buy from the Middle East. Right now they are thugs with a big stick. Take away the oil leverage that OPEC has on the world and they become thugs without the stick. I know this is an oversimplification, but do you really think that taking away their primary source of income wouldn’t be a good thing? We get roughly 60% of our nation’s oil from countries that are considered politically unstable—this is a dangerous addiction we need to break.
He would have just had the sanctions lifted, if all he wanted was oil.
Are you forgetting that Iraq was very close friends with the US during the 70’s? Heck, the UN even gave Saddam an award for the improvements he made in Iraq! The problem was that after he invaded Iran, the US realized that he was a dictator that we could no longer control. That is precicely what this was about; Saddam was a liability to the US and there was no politically correct way that we could lift the sanctions while he was still murdering and oppressing Iraq’s population that were Sunni and Kurdish. It was fine when he was still the benevolent dictator, but once the government of the US started telling us that he was evil and explained all the atrocities he commited, it would have been hard for us to welcome him back with open arms wouldn’t it?
Wouldn't have gone through the Senate anyway. Be realistic.
I won’t disagree with that, but at least Bush could have TRIED to work with the proposal. By pulling out the way he did he set an example that the environment wasn’t his chief concern.
Source.
http://www.nrdc.org/air/transportation/ ... da2003.pdf

I would highly recommend that you read this report. This is an up-to-date report on reducing US dependency on oil and, among other things, it gives a nice outline of the policies that have been implemented by the Bush administration that are stunting the development of fuel cell technologies as well as other alternative fuels.

The simple fact here is this is no longer a technology issue, it is a incentive issue. Why should the car companies spend billions on switching their engine technologies and why should the oil distribution companies spend billions on upgrades to their distribution process? These are businesses and they need financial incentives to justify these actions. The technology is available NOW and the success of cars like the Toyota Prius and Honda’s hybrid cars proves that people like the choice. I’m not saying everything is going to change tomorrow, but we need to get the ball rolling right?

http://www.enn.com/news/2003-08-28/s_7857.asp

This link describes the recent easing of restrictions on coal power plants I was referring to.
The estate tax is devastating to small business and does not generate much federal revenue. There is no reason for it to exist.

Furthermore, the estate tax is set to be repealed in 2010. But by then (or soon after), the Democrats will have come back into power, and the estate tax repeal will be one of the first things to go.
Now it’s your turn to provide a source. What are you basing this idea that the estate tax doesn’t generate much Federal revenue? And it hurts small businesses? If you are referring to that statement Bush made about farmers, it is a total crock of shit. Certain business’ have exemptions to estate tax and for farmers it can go as high as 8 million dollars.

The estate tax exists for a very good reason, whether you agree with the reason or not (and some people have very valid reasons for disagreeing). It is to prevent massed wealth to accumulate within small groups of upper class people and for that money to remain for generations. Ever hear of the Rockefellers?
The rich are the ones with the means to invest in new projects and create jobs. They also pay a proportionally larger amount of the taxes than do other groups, so naturally they receive larger tax breaks.


I’m aware of the fact that the rich pay a great deal more taxes than the poor. But through the tax breaks, Bush has given money back to the people that need it the least and cut social programs for people who need it the most.

As for the rich being the driving force behind the economy, I can only say that I think you are looking at it from the wrong direction. I come from a wealthy family and for them, the important part was always about making life better for those in America that needed it. When the government takes away an after school program or cuts medicare, it doesn’t affect them. It affects the people who actually need the program. I know this doesn’t really answer your question, but the point I’m trying to make is that the purpose of the government is to help the most amount of people in this country, not the least.
You're not serious, are you? Hoover pushed some gigantic tax hikes and tariffs through Congress when the Great Depression hit, when what he should have done was cut taxes (something even the Keynesians agree with). Likewise, we would probably be in even worse shape without the tax cuts than we are now, and the budget would have grown even more extensively. Prove your assertion that some relatively tiny tax cuts are responsible for the current recession.
You’re going from one extreme to another. Sure, tax increases hurt the economy during Hoover’s time and they would hurt it now as well. This hardly disproves my point.

Think of it this way, people in the country get a few hundred bucks for a tax refund and the government loses a big chunk of the “surplus” they were supposed to have and instead just drives us deeper into the red (not the Bush administrations fault). So people are left with a few hundred bucks in their pocket, but is that really going to stimulate the economy? How about instead we could have taken that money and spent it towards creating more government jobs and state supported programs? Wouldn’t that stimulate the economy more than a bonus check for most of the middle class?
Because it did. If you haven't noticed, the market has been recovering.
First you say that they are relatively tiny tax cuts, then you say that they have been helping to restore the economy?

Putting that aside for a sec, I think it is a little early to be talking about economic recovery. We’ve been seeing some decent indicators lately, but unemployement is still at the highest it has been in decades, and we are seeing more and more jobs getting transferred overseas as companies are trying desperately to cut cost. A few points gained on the Dow and Nasdaq is hardly what I’d call a recovery.

I DO think that the economy is on the road to recovery, I just think it has little to do with Bush’s economic policies.

France, the USSR, and China.

That's hardly an argument for not taking the Hussein regime out. If anything, it strengthens the case, since it makes us partially responsible for it.
Like I said above, I wasn’t referring to the actual hardware but that our spending on overseas oil has helped line the pockets of dictators like Saddam. You didn’t think there was only one in the Middle East did you?
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Post by Spyder »

Do either of them actually give a shit about what happens to the American people?
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Post by Tsyroc »

I think they both suck ass, but I traditionally tend to feel more like a middle of the road republican than I do a middle of the road democrat.

For the most part I can list far more problems I have with both parties than things I like about each of them. :x
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Post by Vympel »

Not that I'm an American, of course, but forced to choose I'd say Democrats, but only under an "Anyone But Bush" platform.
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Post by Peregrin Toker »

I am neither American, but as things are today I probably have more in common with the Democrats than the Republicans.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Kernel, what the fuck?

Hydrogen is a net-loss energy source. Care to let me know where we're going to get it? Ideally we'd have efficient fusion power and hydrogen power elsewhere.

But where are you going to efficiently acquire hydrogen?
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Post by Joe »

Are you forgetting that Iraq was very close friends with the US during the 70?s? Heck, the UN even gave Saddam an award for the improvements he made in Iraq! The problem was that after he invaded Iran, the US realized that he was a dictator that we could no longer control. That is precicely what this was about; Saddam was a liability to the US and there was no politically correct way that we could lift the sanctions while he was still murdering and oppressing Iraq?s population that were Sunni and Kurdish. It was fine when he was still the benevolent dictator, but once the government of the US started telling us that he was evil and explained all the atrocities he commited, it would have been hard for us to welcome him back with open arms wouldn?t it?
America was the the primary backer of the sanctions. Lobbying for their elimination likely would have been successful.
I won?t disagree with that, but at least Bush could have TRIED to work with the proposal. By pulling out the way he did he set an example that the environment wasn?t his chief concern.
Good. The well-being of the American people should be his primary concern, not concessions to the eco-loonies which run directly in opposition to that aim.
Now it?s your turn to provide a source. What are you basing this idea that the estate tax doesn?t generate much Federal revenue? And it hurts small businesses? If you are referring to that statement Bush made about farmers, it is a total crock of shit. Certain business? have exemptions to estate tax and for farmers it can go as high as 8 million dollars.
Don't try this on an accounting major. Estate taxes and gift taxes (the latter of which will not be repealed) accounted for around 26 billion dollars of federal revenue in 2002. Less than a drop in the bucket.

Furthermore, the estate tax is absolutely devastating to small business, family-owned specifically, like I said. For firms that choose to stay in business upon the death of their proprietors, the estate tax is going to slice their working capital by more than half, drastically increasing the likelihood of going out of business. Others just sell their business at a decreased value (no continued family ownership means less goodwill) and put the proceeds from the sale into a trust or something that is safer from taxation.
The estate tax exists for a very good reason, whether you agree with the reason or not (and some people have very valid reasons for disagreeing).
Because they hate rich people. Duh.
It is to prevent massed wealth to accumulate within small groups of upper class people and for that money to remain for generations. Ever hear of the Rockefellers?
Odd that you should mention the Rockefellers, given that they've got billions upon billions of dollars to work with and would still have billions and billions of dollars to work with after estate taxation. The estate tax encourages the existence of permanent wealthy dynasties like the Rockefellers, ironically, because with the estate tax it's harder for upstarts to join them at the top. The estate tax actually destroys social mobility, far from encouraging it.
I?m aware of the fact that the rich pay a great deal more taxes than the poor. But through the tax breaks, Bush has given money back to the people that need it the least and cut social programs for people who need it the most.
No, Bush has not cut social programs significantly. He has, however, pushed a brand new one, the Prescription Drug Benefit, through Congress.
As for the rich being the driving force behind the economy, I can only say that I think you are looking at it from the wrong direction. I come from a wealthy family and for them, the important part was always about making life better for those in America that needed it. When the government takes away an after school program or cuts medicare, it doesn?t affect them. It affects the people who actually need the program. I know this doesn?t really answer your question, but the point I?m trying to make is that the purpose of the government is to help the most amount of people in this country, not the least.
The wealthy are the ones with the resources to invest in new projects and create new jobs. Cutting taxes on the wealthy will indeed benefit the people of this country in the long run, regardless of how they spend that money; indeed, for economic purposes we ought to have a regressive income tax (but that's not exactly moral).

And again, you are operating under the assumption that Bush has cut spending on social programs significantly, which he has not.
Think of it this way, people in the country get a few hundred bucks for a tax refund and the government loses a big chunk of the ?surplus? they were supposed to have and instead just drives us deeper into the red (not the Bush administrations fault).
Incorrect. Lowering taxes increases government revenue. Ever hear of the Laffer Curve?
So people are left with a few hundred bucks in their pocket, but is that really going to stimulate the economy?
Without the tax cuts, the federal budget would have grown even more rapidly than it already has, and the economy would likely be even worse. The repeal of the dividend tax in particular has done the market well.
How about instead we could have taken that money and spent it towards creating more government jobs and state supported programs? Wouldn?t that stimulate the economy more than a bonus check for most of the middle class?
No. Didn't work during the New Deal, won't work now.
First you say that they are relatively tiny tax cuts, then you say that they have been helping to restore the economy?
They are relatively tiny, but all tax cuts will help the economy.
Putting that aside for a sec, I think it is a little early to be talking about economic recovery. We?ve been seeing some decent indicators lately, but unemployement is still at the highest it has been in decades,
Bullshit. Unemployment is currently around 6.1 percent, an outstanding figure for a recession. It is most certainly not the highest we've had in decades.
and we are seeing more and more jobs getting transferred overseas as companies are trying desperately to cut cost.
Well, of course. Companies can't afford to pay union laborers 25 dollars an hour when they can pay an overseas laborer a tenth of that.
A few points gained on the Dow and Nasdaq is hardly what I?d call a recovery.
A few points?! November of last year the Dow as low a 7,500; now it's up to 9,500.

As for the fuel cells, which I didn't address, like IP says, it's net-loss. It's not really as easily feasible as it is presented.
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Post by TrailerParkJawa »

Bullshit. Unemployment is currently around 6.1 percent, an outstanding figure for a recession. It is most certainly not the highest we've had in decades.
While I agree unemployement has been higher, certain regions are far worse. Unemployment is pretty bad here in my area. Of course this was the center of the high-tech bubble that has burst.

And even if you live in an area with 6.1% percent unemployment there is no comfort for those who have lost their jobs. So far this recover is not creating new ones because of productivity gains or jobs going overseas. Essentially what that means is those of you have a professional level job are likely to be carrying the load of your job, plus some of the load of the folks who got laid off, plus no pay raise.
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Democrat... Though I do deviate from the party line on a few issues...

Immigration(No racism, purely economic)
Gun control(to an extent)

Welfare: WHile a bit of a socialist, such progams were created to get people back on their feet after losing their job, and Welfare was never intended to be something people can live on for an extended period of time. It should be just enough t pay the rent and utilities so that people dont lose everything as they look for work.


What really turns me off about the republicans, is the decidedly authoritarian twist of the party. I dont like having my first and fourth ammendment rights being clipped...
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Post by Howedar »

Yeah, when exactly did that happen? I don't remember it before Dubya.
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Post by Joe »

Howedar wrote:Yeah, when exactly did that happen? I don't remember it before Dubya.
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Post by Darth Wong »

The Kernel wrote:
Oil is the lifeblood of our civilization. He better damn well care about it.
Don’t you understand the problem with that? Alternative fuels aren’t just a dream; technologies like fuel cells are already becoming practical. GM and Honda were just talking the other day about how they want to take fuel cells beyond the car prototypes and into the home. We have fuel cell laptops that will be available for purchase early next year.
You know, a better rebuttal would be to point out that "caring" about oil's role in the nation's infrastructure does not give Shrubby carte blanche to treat the interests of the oil companies as sacrosanct.
I would highly recommend that you read this report. This is an up-to-date report on reducing US dependency on oil and, among other things, it gives a nice outline of the policies that have been implemented by the Bush administration that are stunting the development of fuel cell technologies as well as other alternative fuels.

The simple fact here is this is no longer a technology issue, it is a incentive issue. Why should the car companies spend billions on switching their engine technologies and why should the oil distribution companies spend billions on upgrades to their distribution process? These are businesses and they need financial incentives to justify these actions. The technology is available NOW and the success of cars like the Toyota Prius and Honda’s hybrid cars proves that people like the choice. I’m not saying everything is going to change tomorrow, but we need to get the ball rolling right?

http://www.enn.com/news/2003-08-28/s_7857.asp

This link describes the recent easing of restrictions on coal power plants I was referring to.
I hope you're a big fan of nuclear power.
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Post by The Kernel »

Darth Wong wrote: I hope you're a big fan of nuclear power.
I don't have any real problems with nuclear power actually. I think most of the argument against it is based on irrational fear more than anything else.

PS, Durran Korr, I haven't forgotten your response. Will be posting again later tonight.
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Post by Darth Wong »

The Kernel wrote:I don't have any real problems with nuclear power actually. I think most of the argument against it is based on irrational fear more than anything else.
Good. I've been in nuclear power plants and I've been in coal-fired power plants, and I'll tell you right now that I would much rather work in a nuclear power plant. You have to see a coal-fired power plant to realize what an ecological and sanitary disaster it is. I don't even want to live near one of those fucking things.
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Post by Durandal »

Darth Wong wrote:I hope you're a big fan of nuclear power.
If you promote nuclear power, you hate children and the environment.
You don't ... hate kids, do you?
Newtonian Fury wrote:You can attribute that tuition hike to Blagojeivich. He cut so much funding that the schools had to compensate by raising tuition. It really is kinda funny that for a Dem, he's cutting programs left and right and not raising the taxes.

Of course, if Ryan hadn't left the state in the red, Blagojeivich might not be so fiscally conservative.
You're right, of course. Blagojeivich's approach is rather uncharacteristic of a Democrat, though (avoid raising taxes at all costs). However, I'd prefer that he take educational funding from somewhere aside from property tax.
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Post by SirNitram »

Durandal wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:I hope you're a big fan of nuclear power.
If you promote nuclear power, you hate children and the environment.
You don't ... hate kids, do you?
If you disparage nuclear power, you're insulting my mother. For that, you must die. Slow.

Realistically, though, I'm a large supporter of nuclear power, especially with research into dealing with the waste.
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Kernel, what the fuck?

Hydrogen is a net-loss energy source. Care to let me know where we're going to get it? Ideally we'd have efficient fusion power and hydrogen power elsewhere.

But where are you going to efficiently acquire hydrogen?
Iceland found a really good way. Geothermal power electrolyzing water for hydrogen which powers their shipping and buses. Of course, that won't work unless you have Icelands geological arrangement, but you can electrolyze water from energy gained from nuclear power. I'll be the first to say that hydrogen fuel cells are glorified batteries, but they are potentally better than what we've got now and I'd rather be beholden to Iceland for fuel than Saudi Arabia.
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Post by HemlockGrey »

I lived near the Lancaster County nuclear power plant for a time. Never saw any three-eyed fish, mutants, or glowing humanoid rocks.
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Post by Uraniun235 »

Ultimately I'd probably have to go Democrat, although I should note I will vote for anyone who shares my views on critical issues. I don't give a damn about ideologies or political games, I just want solutions that work.

As for nuclear power, I'm fine with it... much better than coal power.
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Alyrium Denryle
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Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Hmmm nuclear power...
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
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Joe
Space Cowboy
Posts: 17314
Joined: 2002-08-22 09:58pm
Location: Wishing I was in Athens, GA

Post by Joe »

The Kernel wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: I hope you're a big fan of nuclear power.
I don't have any real problems with nuclear power actually. I think most of the argument against it is based on irrational fear more than anything else.

PS, Durran Korr, I haven't forgotten your response. Will be posting again later tonight.
Take as long as you need...I'm knee-deep in schoolwork and may not be able to respond soon, so don't worry about getting in a quick response.
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BoTM / JL / MM / HAB / VRWC / Horseman

I'm studying for the CPA exam. Have a nice summer, and if you're down just sit back and realize that Joe is off somewhere, doing much worse than you are.
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