Bowling for Columbine (Here we go again)

[aronkerkhof]

I thought he did a good job of taking the air out of both sides of the gun debate. The one argument he didn't address was the theory that armed citizenry acts as both a restraint against oppressive government and as a pressure valve to avoid the bloody revolution and internecine continental warfare that Europe and Asia have experienced last century. I don't know what to make of that argument myself, but thats the sentiment behind the "cold dead hands" policy, and to not address it at all seemed odd.

Maybe he didn't bother addressing it because it's a wacko theory, subscribed to only by extremists. He was aiming only at the mainstream arguments from both sides. Just look at Iraq, where they had the right to bear arms under Hussein but that was pretty much the only right they had.

Yes, but Iraq also had a storm trooper force loyal to Saddam that was from the same minority he was, and had a reason to oppress their fellow Iraqi of different ethnic and religious makeup. The same can't be said of the US military, where even if Bush, for example, gave the order to gas Arizona or whatever its unlikey that the military would carry that order out.

As I said, I haven't made up my mind in any way, but the argument as I first saw it was raised on kuro5hin, which is hardly a conservative wacko site. So why is it considered wacko?

Rural areas live in fear of "the other", which they rationalize as the Outsider, often from The City. Their culture of fear is a culture of fearing the Outsider, not their neighbour. It's a slightly different variation but it's no less pervasive.

That might be, but it hasn't been the case in my experience, which I realize is not hard data. In any case, any rural "culture of fear" doesn't seem to lead to people walking around strapped and committing violent crime.

Maybe make the Southerners enter the 21st century instead of affixing themselves in the 19th.

Its tough making anyone do anything, but I'm not opposed to giving it a shot. Besides, the conservative states are everything in between the rockies and apalacians, which encompasses quite a bit more than dixie land.

[Darth Wong]

Yes, but Iraq also had a storm trooper force loyal to Saddam that was from the same minority he was, and had a reason to oppress their fellow Iraqi of different ethnic and religious makeup.

So? How does that change the fact that Iraq refutes the longstanding NRA claim that the right to bear arms "guarantees" all of the other rights? Or are you saying that the NRA's claim should be revised to "it sort of guarantees the other rights providing that the socio-economic conditions are not in place for this rule to go flying out the window"?

As I said, I haven't made up my mind in any way, but the argument as I first saw it was raised on kuro5hin, which is hardly a conservative wacko site. So why is it considered wacko?

Because modern militaries can effortlessly put down a bunch of dissidents with small-arms any day of the week, and truly widespread uprisings are a novelist's dream, not a reality. Most people just try to stay out of harm's way and keep their heads down. That is history, and that is human nature.

Rural areas live in fear of "the other", which they rationalize as the Outsider, often from The City. Their culture of fear is a culture of fearing the Outsider, not their neighbour. It's a slightly different variation but it's no less pervasive.

That might be, but it hasn't been the case in my experience, which I realize is not hard data. In any case, any rural "culture of fear" doesn't seem to lead to people walking around strapped and committing violent crime.

Wrong. See the crime statistics I listed earlier.

Its tough making anyone do anything, but I'm not opposed to giving it a shot. Besides, the conservative states are everything in between the rockies and apalacians, which encompasses quite a bit more than dixie land.

Yes, there seems to be something about flat, landlocked states and proximity to cows and corn that breeds socially regressive thinking.

[Nathan F]

Yes, there seems to be something about flat, landlocked states and proximity to cows and corn that breeds socially regressive thinking.

Oh COME ON Mike...

[Glocksman]

He propped up every argument the gun nuts have put up for the reason why we need guns and why the US has such gun violence and shot it down.

You mean he propped up strawmen and knocked them down.

The number of gun kills in comparison to the rest of the developed world was stark and sobering.

Here's one of his strawmen. The US's violent death rate isn't the highest in the world. It's high, but it's not the highest.


International Violent Death Rate chart

Americans are fairly violent, but some other societies are violent as well.

The comparison of the historical reasons given by gun nuts that we are a historically violent people opposed by German history, Japanese history, British history was also an excellent rebuttal.

Moore's use of WW2 stock footage was hardly an excellent rebuttal. Both Moore and that smirking Tom Mauser distorted the 'culture' theory, and then Moore knocked that strawman down. The argument isn't based on a violent history per se, it's based on the way the US developed differently from the rest of the Western Democracies.

If you want to read more on the 'culture of violence' theory, read David Kopel's The Samurai, the Mountie, and the Cowboy: Should America Adopt the Gun Controls of Other Democracies. It contrasts and compares the cultural development of the US with that of several other democracies.

There are simplifications in the book and I disagree with Kopel on a few points, but the book is thought provoking and gives a serious topic the serious treatment it deserves.

I generally agree with his view of the American culture of fear. The most stark comparison was the Canadian segment when he visits Canada to see what was different about them. The health care part was closest and dearest to my heart as that is the issue that I bleieve will be a central issue for the future of the US. Why are we dragging our feet about nationalizing some sort of healthcare, why out of most industrialized world are we so unwilling, almost rabidly so opposed to even exploring the idea?

Agreed.

There was the segement about the 6 yr old boy that killed a classmate and the Sheriff stated that the ones most vocal about having the child tried as an adult and punished to the greatest extent of the law were the NRA people. It was almost as if in reflex, almost as if they can't help themselves the NRA folks knee jerk response to any gun massacre is "HEY, we have a motherfucking right to these weapons, don't even THINK about taking or restructing those right." Its sad really

It was the prosecutor, not the Sheriff.

Pardon me if I'm a little skeptical of his claims since he appears to be butt buddies with Michael Moore.

From the Prosecutor's website:

Dear Friends:

I am writing this letter to you from Hollywood, California. I am here with filmmaker Michael Moore and his wife Kathleen Glynn and their family. The Academy Awards ceremony will take place on Sunday, March 23, 2003, to honor those who excel in the film industry. Certainly, Genesee County natives, Michael Moore and his wife Kathleen Glynn do not need another award to establish that they are two of America’s brightest stars in the entertainment business. For the past 15 years, they have left an indelible mark on our nation as advocates for the poor and the working people of America. In their most recent film endeavor, Bowling for Columbine (www.bowlingforcolumbine.com) they have become the some of the nations’ leading advocates for victims of crime.

The Flint community should be proud of Michael and Kathleen’s work and the recognition they have garnered for our community. Perhaps outside of Charles Stewart Mott and a few of our famous athletes, no other Flint area residents have received the international notoriety that Michael Moore and Kathleen Glynn have attained.

We all wish them well and hope that they will receive their industry’s highest recognition for excellence on Sunday, March 23. Like most American’s I have mixed feelings about whether the nation’s attention should be on entertainment at this difficult time for our nation.

Link

I question his credibility as I'm damn sure that MM didn't bring everyone he interviewed to Hollywood in order to see the Academy Awards.

The creative editing was NOT one of those points because its getting across the general point, the NRA was offensive and insesntive in the treatment of gun massacres.

Watching 'Bowling', you get the impression that Heston was on a plane to Flint before the gun barrel cooled down. Problem is, that's not true.

There's this thing called timing.

The Flint appearance happened eight months after the shooting and was a 'get out the vote' rally right before the 2000 elections. Both Bush and Gore were in the area at the same time as well.

There's nothing offensive about the Flint rally in that context.

And I *do* have a right to own those weapons. It's one that's guaranteed me by both the Federal and my State constitutions.


One thing Moore glosses over is that statistically, blacks make up about 10-12% of the population (I could be wrong as this is off the top of my head), yet according to the FBI UCR they make up almost half of the murder victims and at least a third (the race of over 4500 murderers is 'unknown') of the murderers.

US White homicide rate 2000: 3.69 (US CDC)
US Black homicide rate 2000: 22.98 (US CDC)

Just why do blacks murder other blacks at such high rates? Legacy from slavery? Racism? Economic factors? Breakdown of the Black family like Senator Moniyhan predicted?

Exploring this issue would have made for a much more challenging documentary.

[Darth Wong]

Yes, there seems to be something about flat, landlocked states and proximity to cows and corn that breeds socially regressive thinking.

Oh COME ON Mike...

You're not going to spew some bullshit about how it's just a "myth" that rural areas are less socially progressive than big cities now, are you?

[Nathan F]

Yes, there seems to be something about flat, landlocked states and proximity to cows and corn that breeds socially regressive thinking.

Oh COME ON Mike...

You're not going to spew some bullshit about how it's just a "myth" that rural areas are less socially progressive than big cities now, are you?

So, the inner city of New York is more progressive than the rural mid west?

Should we remember how much of California or Pennsylvania or New York are rural famlands?

[Nathan F]

BTW, thanks for fixing my typo.

[MKSheppard]

Americans are fairly violent, but some other societies are violent as well.

Samoans in particular, I read a long time ago that they literally have
no word for "I'm sorry" in their language, and that they can literall kill
someone and then a minute later be "huh?"

US White homicide rate 2000: 3.69 (US CDC)
US Black homicide rate 2000: 22.98 (US CDC)

Just why do blacks murder other blacks at such high rates? Legacy from slavery? Racism? Economic factors? Breakdown of the Black family like Senator Moniyhan predicted?

Shush! Shush! Be quiet! You know it's not politically correct to talk of such
things!

[Stravo]

One thing Moore glosses over is that statistically, blacks make up about 10-12% of the population (I could be wrong as this is off the top of my head), yet according to the FBI UCR they make up almost half of the murder victims and at least a third (the race of over 4500 murderers is 'unknown') of the murderers.

US White homicide rate 2000: 3.69 (US CDC)
US Black homicide rate 2000: 22.98 (US CDC)

Just why do blacks murder other blacks at such high rates? Legacy from slavery? Racism? Economic factors? Breakdown of the Black family like Senator Moniyhan predicted?

Exploring this issue would have made for a much more challenging documentary.

I wholeheartedly agree. But Moore does touch upon this when he interviews the white kid that steals guns from hsi friends' parents and goes and sells them in the inner city to what the kid described as 'predominately black' clients.

If Black kids are killing each other, white suburban kids are fueling it by coming into the city to buy drugs or selling weapons. Personally I cannot tell you how many NJ and PEnnsylavnia license plates I see in Washington Heights trolling for drugs here every day I come home from work. If you have an illicit business and there is steep competition that can only be curtailed by guns or violence what do you think is going to happen?

Blacks are not inherently more violent. POVERTY makes people more violent, being involved in the drug business is inherently more dangerous.

As to your other points, you raise excellent rebuttals and I would be interested in reading that book as I have always been curious about the American cultural development.

[Darth Wong]

The number of gun kills in comparison to the rest of the developed world was stark and sobering.

Here's one of his strawmen. The US's violent death rate isn't the highest in the world. It's high, but it's not the highest.

The violent death rate includes suicides; we are more interested in the homicide rate.

International Violent Death Rate chart
Americans are fairly violent, but some other societies are violent as well.

on that chart, you only get beaten in the homicide rate department by Estonia, Brazil, Mexico, Taiwan, and Northern Ireland. There are a lot more countries below the US than above it when it comes to homicide rates, and let's face it: the handful that are above you have some serious social problems of their own. You may not like Michael Moore, but that's no reason to bury your head in the sand about the USA's high murder rate.

There are simplifications in the book and I disagree with Kopel on a few points, but the book is thought provoking and gives a serious topic the serious treatment it deserves.

Books are always more thorough and serious than movies.

It was the prosecutor, not the Sheriff.

Pardon me if I'm a little skeptical of his claims since he appears to be butt buddies with Michael Moore.

So he must be a liar if he supports Moore? That's a neat way of dismissing anyone who agrees with him, isn't it? Nobody agrees with him, and if they do, they must be liars?

One thing Moore glosses over is that statistically, blacks make up about 10-12% of the population (I could be wrong as this is off the top of my head), yet according to the FBI UCR they make up almost half of the murder victims and at least a third (the race of over 4500 murderers is 'unknown') of the murderers.

Moore tries to address it as an issue of poverty, not race. I see nothing wrong with that choice.

[Glocksman]

Shush! Shush! Be quiet! You know it's not politically correct to talk of such
things!

I didn't think a Freedom Party stalwart would be afraid to speak out.
Jake's gonna be disappointed in you.

To my mind, it's a combination of economic and social factors.

The breakdown of the family combined with a lack of a social safety net and the War on Some Drugs are the factors that I blame for this happening.

[MKSheppard]

I didn't think a Freedom Party stalwart would be afraid to speak out.
Jake's gonna be disappointed in you.

Heh, I'm just hanging around this thread watching the chum floating around.
Some people are tossing in deliberaterly inflammatory stuff, hoping that
me and others like me Grenade this thread.

[Glocksman]

So he must be a liar if he supports Moore? That's a neat way of dismissing anyone who agrees with him, isn't it? Nobody agrees with him, and if they do, they must be liars?

There's a difference between supporting Moore's positions and being at the Academy Awards with him.

Being asshole buddies with Moore doesn't automatically make the guy a liar, but it does cast doubt on his credibility given Moore's constant attacks on the NRA.

Blacks are not inherently more violent. POVERTY makes people more violent, being involved in the drug business is inherently more dangerous.

Agreed for the most part. Some people are just sociopaths regardless of income, though.

[Glocksman]

Edit: That should read 'Some people regardless of race or income are sociopaths, though'.

[fgalkin]

What the fuck is going on in Anniston, Alabama? That's blood curdling!

Want more? I sorted their spreadsheet by rape rate, and found that that highest rape rate of all cities and towns in the US is found in Muskegon Heights, Michigan. Population: 12112. Rapes per capita in 2001: 239.4

I shit you not. I wonder if Muskegon Heights residents know that they have 12.5 times NYC's rate of rape.

Population (year 2000): 12,049
Males: 5,452 (45.2%), Females: 6,597 (54.8%)

County: Muskegon

Land area: 3.2 square miles

Zip code: 49444

Median resident age: 29.0 years
Median household income: $21,778
Median house value: $42,400

Races in Muskegon Heights:

* Black (77.8%)
* White Non-Hispanic (16.4%)
* Hispanic (3.5%)
* Two or more races (2.2%)
* Other race (1.6%)
* American Indian (1.5%)

Source

Interesting that the city is dirt-poor and almost 80% black.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[MKSheppard]

Interesting that the city is dirt-poor and almost 80% black.

You're thinking UN-PC thoughts Comrade, report to the re-education
center, for reprogramming to the proper frame of mind

[Stravo]

Interesting that the city is dirt-poor and almost 80% black.

You're thinking UN-PC thoughts Comrade, report to the re-education
center, for reprogramming to the proper frame of mind

Stop pussyfooting around and just come out and say it.

[aronkerkhof]

So? How does that change the fact that Iraq refutes the longstanding NRA claim that the right to bear arms "guarantees" all of the other rights? Or are you saying that the NRA's claim should be revised to "it sort of guarantees the other rights providing that the socio-economic conditions are not in place for this rule to go flying out the window"?

No, I was thinking more that if you start with a democracy, its harder to overthrow that democracy if the citizens are armed. I'm not an NRA supporter, nor do I own a gun. Do they really make such claims as far as gun ownership in other countries? I know they support the gun groups in UK, Canada, etc as a practical matter, but didn't think they tried to say Mogadishu, say, was better off with everyone toting a submachine gun or better.

Because modern militaries can effortlessly put down a bunch of dissidents with small-arms any day of the week, and truly widespread uprisings are a novelist's dream, not a reality. Most people just try to stay out of harm's way and keep their heads down. That is history, and that is human nature.

My thought was that US military units aren't going to gun down citizens en masse, though they might be willing to passively round them up. America does tend to romanticize revolution, though.

Wrong. See the crime statistics I listed earlier.

As far as I could see, you listed rape statistics. Rape is particularly evil and vile, but it is only part of what makes up violent crime. The same site you got your stats states that violent crime rate in urban areas was about 74% higher than the rural rate and 37% higher than the suburban rate. And although actual use of a weapon only happened 30-40% of the cases, the rate was higher in urban areas. [url=http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/usrv98.htm]That was for 93-98[/quote], I couldn't find a similar report for other time periods. Forgive me if I err in commenting on your statistics, the Colts game is about to start and I have to go pick up pizzas.

Yes, there seems to be something about flat, landlocked states and proximity to cows and corn that breeds socially regressive thinking.

Similarly, mass quantities of concrete, pigeons, and public transport must set off something primal and violent in the human psyche.

[MKSheppard]

Stop pussyfooting around and just come out and say it.

OK then, I'm glad I live in Montgomery County, Maryland and not
in Prince George's County, Maryland. Car thefts are much lower
and the police force is much more professional and competent,
despite us being separated by just 30 minutes of driving.

[MKSheppard]

and the police force is much more professional and competent,
despite us being separated by just 30 minutes of driving.

Oh the wonders of having your police force NOT shoot you if
you're having an epilictic fit inside a locked car.

[HemlockGrey]

Interestingly enough, the US murder rate can be seen to rise and fall with the rise and fall of various prohibitionary efforts, drug war included. Of course, it's declined of late, I think, but with the Feds rounding up something like 1 million people each year, that's not terribly surprising.

[Nathan F]

What the fuck is going on in Anniston, Alabama? That's blood curdling!

Forget Alabama. Dickson, Tennessee has 4x more rapes per capita than New York City.

Source, please. I happen to live near Dickson, and I don't hear of that many rapes going on there in a county of 44 thousand. And I personally do not think that a single city on the outskirts of metro Nashville (That get's overflow crime from that city, without the population) is a very accurate reflection of crime in that state. Give me crime stats for some comparable towns, THEN use that as a base of an argument. That town is growing faster than the small police department can manage and the scumbags who commit crimes in Nashville have the odd habit of moving to smaller outlying towns when they commit their crimes.

[MKSheppard]

I think, but with the Feds rounding up something like 1 million people each year, that's not terribly surprising.

Operation PREDATOR just took 4,000 people off the streets, supposedly
kiddy porn vendors, readers, etc but that's what the DOJ says...

[MKSheppard]

Operation PREDATOR just took 4,000 people off the streets, supposedly
kiddy porn vendors, readers, etc but that's what the DOJ says...

My mistake. It's actually just 1,000. Damn memory

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030 ... -6409r.htm

[Darth Wong]

What the fuck is going on in Anniston, Alabama? That's blood curdling!

Forget Alabama. Dickson, Tennessee has 4x more rapes per capita than New York City.

Source, please. I happen to live near Dickson, and I don't hear of that many rapes going on there in a county of 44 thousand.

If you bothered to read the thread instead of just the last couple of posts, you would see that I already linked to an FBI uniform crime report on this matter, so don't give me this "source please" shit. You are merely proving my point about "common knowledge" vs reality.