Arizona voters back plan on illegals

[MKSheppard]

Actually for several crops no form of mechanical harvester exists.

They just invented one that shucks oysters with no human intervention
not needed at all through water pressure.

[Chardok]

Or else they're too cheep to pay money down for a decent Harvester

Actually for several crops no form of mechanical harvester exists.

O' contrare, Almost every crophas a harvester and those that don't would have very quickly. You'd be amazed what inginuity American inventers have, actually, you should already be amazed at it.

Really? You must be joking, right? Ever seen an apple harvester? Not fucking likely. how about an orange harvester? Fucking doubt it.
Please, don't you think that if there were a way to harvest these things mechanically it would be done?
(If there is such a thing as an apple harvester which can harvest the crop without turning the trees into what equates to a ceasar salad, please provide links.)

[ZShade]

http://afrsweb.usda.gov/donsvideos.htm

This has videos for experimental cherry, apple, and orange harvesters. I don't know how well they'll actually work vs. human labor, but you only asked for one that didn't shred the tree.

[Darth Wong]

If they're experimental, they're obviously not in common use, never mind being an economical replacement for migrant workers. Farms are businesses, and they do a cost/benefit analysis on capital expenditures just like everyone else. A large piece of farm equipment often represents a major liability, and a substantial business risk. People who ask why farmers don't just buy every piece of equipment under the Sun are obviously thinking in grossly oversimplistic terms.

BTW, there was a farmer living near the town where my wife grew up who killed himself after going deep into debt for a very large piece of new equipment which was destroyed after a few months. I don't remember exactly how it got wrecked, but that's not important. The point is that it's no laughing matter or trivial decision to replace migrant workers with expensive automated hardware.

[Captain Murphy]

If they're experimental, they're obviously not in common use, never mind being an economical replacement for migrant workers. Farms are businesses, and they do a cost/benefit analysis on capital expenditures just like everyone else. A large piece of farm equipment often represents a major liability, and a substantial business risk. People who ask why farmers don't just buy every piece of equipment under the Sun are obviously thinking in grossly oversimplistic terms.

BTW, there was a farmer living near the town where my wife grew up who killed himself after going deep into debt for a very large piece of new equipment which was destroyed after a few months. I don't remember exactly how it got wrecked, but that's not important. The point is that it's no laughing matter or trivial decision to replace migrant workers with expensive automated hardware.

Yes, they can have harvesters for everything. My family owns a vineyard and guess what, they have functional machines that can both prune and pick grapes. Pick grapes!, I have trouble picking grapes! There are Apple and Orange pickers as well.

Oversimplistic would be to think that ALL those illegal migrant workers are having no draining affect what so ever on both social and ecomonical societies that they move into. Inteligent farmers have insurance. Insurance can cover such things as machines and even your crop incase is doesn't do well. Harvesters also don't nessisarly need to be purchaced, they can be rented in which case the farmer doesn't have to pay for maintanence on a device he only uses seasonaly.

[Sea Skimmer]

The point is that it's no laughing matter or trivial decision to replace migrant workers with expensive automated hardware.

On top of which the simple operating costs can be immense. A new tire for a wheat harvester for example costs something like 15,000 USD. Luckily they don't break very easily. Large cooperate farms can more easily afford equipment though, since they can generally run it over a greater acreage. But more people would like to see small farms providing everything, and with the qaulity of American ladn they easily could, then to see more land in the hands of multi billion dollar giants.

[Darth Wong]

Oversimplistic would be to think that ALL those illegal migrant workers are having no draining affect what so ever on both social and ecomonical societies that they move into.

What "draining effect" do you expect? They are paid to perform a service which they provide very economically compared to the alternatives, and they spend some of their own earnings in order to buy room and board while they're living in town during the summer months. In what way does this "drain" the local economy? Does it "drain" your personal economy to buy something more cheaply from vendor A then vendor B?

Inteligent farmers have insurance. Insurance can cover such things as machines and even your crop incase is doesn't do well.

Coming from a libertarian, this is quite amusing. Insurance companies are not required to provide insurance to anyone they consider a risk, and certainly not at economical rates. The insurance rates simply add yet another operating cost on top of the hardware, and provide yet more incentive to use cheap migrant farmhands. Do you honestly think that all of the farmers who do this are just so stupid and ignorant that they've never heard of automated equipment, as opposed to rationally deciding that it wasn't a good idea for them?

Harvesters also don't nessisarly need to be purchaced, they can be rented in which case the farmer doesn't have to pay for maintanence on a device he only uses seasonaly.

In theory, yes. In practical terms, you might not be able to get what you need for what you want to pay.

[Captain Murphy]

Oversimplistic would be to think that ALL those illegal migrant workers are having no draining affect what so ever on both social and ecomonical societies that they move into.

What "draining effect" do you expect? They are paid to perform a service which they provide very economically compared to the alternatives, and they spend some of their own earnings in order to buy room and board while they're living in town during the summer months. In what way does this "drain" the local economy? Does it "drain" your personal economy to buy something more cheaply from vendor A then vendor B?

Inteligent farmers have insurance. Insurance can cover such things as machines and even your crop incase is doesn't do well.

Coming from a libertarian, this is quite amusing. Insurance companies are not required to provide insurance to anyone they consider a risk, and certainly not at economical rates. The insurance rates simply add yet another operating cost on top of the hardware, and provide yet more incentive to use cheap migrant farmhands. Do you honestly think that all of the farmers who do this are just so stupid and ignorant that they've never heard of automated equipment, as opposed to rationally deciding that it wasn't a good idea for them?

Harvesters also don't nessisarly need to be purchaced, they can be rented in which case the farmer doesn't have to pay for maintanence on a device he only uses seasonaly.

In theory, yes. In practical terms, you might not be able to get what you need for what you want to pay.

Yes, migrant workers are a temporary cheap tool a farmer can use. They also have negative effects on the surrounding area. I see it every day, negative effects can include: 1. illegal retrieval of Welfare money and the use of local public schools of which they are not contributing to funding in any way. 2. Use of and overcrowding of hospital emergency rooms, also a funding drain. 3. Lowering of housing values around their communities due to the state in which they live, then they leave and noone wants to live where it (generalization here) smells.

I'm not in a flame war with you Wong, but it's fairly obvious you have the wong idea (heh, sorry) about many things. Yes, the migrant workers spend some money they make in the area where they're working and staying, but the reason they came to this country is to make a nest egg while living as cheaply as they can (not caring about the beauty of a surrounding area) and then go back to Mexico where they can live more comfertably, taking as much money as they can back with them.

Insurance companies aren't required to do anythingthing they don't want to do, especially in a libertarian society... but I believe the whole political thing is on a different thread is it not? Yes, migrant workers are cheaper in some instances, and maybe a larger loss of small farmers and their farms will happen, but that has been happening ever since industrialization has started. So let's say the illegals were moved out... what would happen to prices? They'd rise a little as the small farmers would have more expenses. But you would be keeping more money in pocket instead of paying for someone elses child to be fed, medicated and educated. Small farmers have been going out of business for a long time, and while I hate to see it, it's natural because it's cheaper to do things in mass quantities. Or maybe the farmers would think of ingenius ideas like they always have in order to make things work out for them. One example is the joining up of many farmers to share costs.

[Darth Wong]

Yes, migrant workers are a temporary cheap tool a farmer can use. They also have negative effects on the surrounding area. I see it every day, negative effects can include: 1. illegal retrieval of Welfare money and the use of local public schools of which they are not contributing to funding in any way. 2. Use of and overcrowding of hospital emergency rooms, also a funding drain. 3. Lowering of housing values around their communities due to the state in which they live, then they leave and noone wants to live where it (generalization here) smells.

All of which apply to any poor person (hint: a welfare recipient who was born in the US and a welfare recipient who was born in Mexico both contribute roughly the same amount of money to pay for the welfare system and/or public schools).

I'm not in a flame war with you Wong, but it's fairly obvious you have the wong idea (heh, sorry) about many things. Yes, the migrant workers spend some money they make in the area where they're working and staying, but the reason they came to this country is to make a nest egg while living as cheaply as they can (not caring about the beauty of a surrounding area) and then go back to Mexico where they can live more comfertably, taking as much money as they can back with them.

Duh, thanks for pointing out the obvious. Now explain how this changes the fact that it's more economical for farmers to use them. It's rather ironic that a self-professed libertarian like you is now advocating that farmers be forced not to do that which is most economically expedient because you're worried about social consequences.

Insurance companies aren't required to do anythingthing they don't want to do, especially in a libertarian society... but I believe the whole political thing is on a different thread is it not?

So you're not prepared to defend your libertarian viewpoint here where its effects contradict your preferred position? OK, be that way if you like.

Yes, migrant workers are cheaper in some instances, and maybe a larger loss of small farmers and their farms will happen, but that has been happening ever since industrialization has started. So let's say the illegals were moved out... what would happen to prices? They'd rise a little as the small farmers would have more expenses. But you would be keeping more money in pocket instead of paying for someone elses child to be fed, medicated and educated. Small farmers have been going out of business for a long time, and while I hate to see it, it's natural because it's cheaper to do things in mass quantities.

This irrelevant stream of consciousness about the death of small farms has nothing to do with the fact that migrant labour (the topic of this thread) is heavily used by various industries and individuals throughout the US, and for good reason. And since the people who hire them generally live in and support (via property taxes) the communities which you say will be affected, it's their choice to do so, not yours.

Or maybe the farmers would think of ingenius ideas like they always have in order to make things work out for them. One example is the joining up of many farmers to share costs.

Once again, that doesn't always work. My wife grew up on a farm, in a farming community, and I lived in the boonies for 4 years; you act as if I've never seen any of this first-hand.

[Glocksman]

This irrelevant stream of consciousness about the death of small farms has nothing to do with the fact that migrant labour (the topic of this thread) is heavily used by various industries and individuals throughout the US, and for good reason. And since the people who hire them generally live in and support (via property taxes) the communities which you say will be affected, it's their choice to do so, not yours.

The 'good reason' is simply to keep wages down. As a blue collar worker whose wages are directly impacted by the flood of illegals*, I'm all for mass roundups and deportations of illegal immigrants.


And once they're deported, my 3M™ (Million Mines per Mile) plan would keep them out.

Screw the illegals. Business has no right to hire people who are in the country illegally despite the lack of enforcement of the law.

*I work in a 1600 employee shop where the Hispanic employment level went from zero in 1998 to 650+ today. Before the influx of illegals, management was raising the starting wages in an effort to attract workers. Today, with all of the illegals, the company has told us (we're a union shop and I was on the last bargaining committee) that they had no interest in raising the starting pay from the current $6.50/hr.

They also were able to ram through increased benefit costs and lower wage hikes because of the fact that the illegals would cross the picket lines.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Aren't people worried about a massive crime wave if these people are suddenly cut off?

You forget this is Arizona. They'll be thrown into desert jails under Joe
Arapio

Why yes... yes they will...

Fuck the economic problems illegals pose are fucking horrible... I am pretty far to the left and I support a crackdown on illegals...

[Sea Skimmer]

And once they're deported, my 3M™ (Million Mines per Mile) plan would keep them out.

Silence theft, I'll be dispatching the HAB armored layer regiment to deal with you shortly.

[Darth Wong]

The 'good reason' is simply to keep wages down. As a blue collar worker whose wages are directly impacted by the flood of illegals*, I'm all for mass roundups and deportations of illegal immigrants.

Nothing personal, but as a white collar worker, I should point out that someone with a college education or a good tech-school trade does not need to worry about competing with unskilled Mexican labourers.

*I work in a 1600 employee shop where the Hispanic employment level went from zero in 1998 to 650+ today. Before the influx of illegals, management was raising the starting wages in an effort to attract workers. Today, with all of the illegals, the company has told us (we're a union shop and I was on the last bargaining committee) that they had no interest in raising the starting pay from the current $6.50/hr.

What do they do for $6.50/hr?

[Hamel]

The 'good reason' is simply to keep wages down. As a blue collar worker whose wages are directly impacted by the flood of illegals*, I'm all for mass roundups and deportations of illegal immigrants.

Nothing personal, but as a white collar worker, I should point out that someone with a college education or a good tech-school trade does not need to worry about competing with unskilled Mexican labourers.

IT workers have to compete with the H1b visa dudes, and generally the Indians

[Darth Wong]

IT workers have to compete with the H1b visa dudes, and generally the Indians

A skilled white-collar worker who comes to live and work in the country is a good thing. I'm talking about unskilled migrant workers.

PS. The Indians where I live may have come from a rather poor Hindu nation, but they drive Acuras and BMWs here. They aren't driving down wages.

[Illuminatus Primus]

It's about time measures like this pass. There's no point in supporting illegal immigrants at taxpayer expense.

Aren't people worried about a massive crime wave if these people are suddenly cut off?

Isn't it apparent that this is the first step to cutting off a "welcome" sign for illegals in the U.S., that also includes a wink, wink attitude toward hiring them? Harsher mandatory penalties for hiring illegals will join this initiative in going a long way toward discouraging illegal immigration.

[Nathan F]

IT workers have to compete with the H1b visa dudes, and generally the Indians

A skilled white-collar worker who comes to live and work in the country is a good thing. I'm talking about unskilled migrant workers.

PS. The Indians where I live may have come from a rather poor Hindu nation, but they drive Acuras and BMWs here. They aren't driving down wages.

Now now, Mike, you got onto me earlier for using personal experiences as evidence...

[Darth Wong]

IT workers have to compete with the H1b visa dudes, and generally the Indians

A skilled white-collar worker who comes to live and work in the country is a good thing. I'm talking about unskilled migrant workers.
PS. The Indians where I live may have come from a rather poor Hindu nation, but they drive Acuras and BMWs here. They aren't driving down wages.

Now now, Mike, you got onto me earlier for using personal experiences as evidence...

Don't play these kinds of fucking bullshit games, kid. If you think the legal immigrant Indian white-collar university-educated workers in Canada are living like Mexican migrants in shanty-towns, you're an idiot.

[beyond hope]

Until the government cracks down on businesses that hire illegals, this situation will not change. As long as there's a demand for cheap labor (with no questions asked) there'll be illegals coming in.

[MKSheppard]

Nothing personal, but as a white collar worker, I should point out that someone with a college education or a good tech-school trade does not need to worry about competing with unskilled Mexican labourers.

No, you only need to worry about your job being exported to India.

[Alyrium Denryle]

A skilled white-collar worker who comes to live and work in the country is a good thing. I'm talking about unskilled migrant workers.
PS. The Indians where I live may have come from a rather poor Hindu nation, but they drive Acuras and BMWs here. They aren't driving down wages.

Now now, Mike, you got onto me earlier for using personal experiences as evidence...

Don't play these kinds of fucking bullshit games, kid. If you think the legal immigrant Indian white-collar university-educated workers in Canada are living like Mexican migrants in shanty-towns, you're an idiot.

Yeah, there is a disctinct difference between unskilled illegal workers, and legitimate students, and skilled personell.

The later, contribute meaningfully into society.

[StimNeuro]

Now now, Mike, you got onto me earlier for using personal experiences as evidence...

Don't play these kinds of fucking bullshit games, kid. If you think the legal immigrant Indian white-collar university-educated workers in Canada are living like Mexican migrants in shanty-towns, you're an idiot.

Yeah, there is a disctinct difference between unskilled illegal workers, and legitimate students, and skilled personell.

The later, contribute meaningfully into society.

The later are also willing to respect our laws concerning the entering and exiting of this country.

[Stormbringer]

Not the kind that robs you at gunpoint, which would be more upsetting.

Of course. But if they're caught in the first place chances are they're going to be deported anyway. Or at least should be.

How does that address the issue of illegals who are already in the country?

It doesn't. But then again stopping these people from getting in to begin with will reduce the problem in the long run.

[phongn]

Really? You must be joking, right? Ever seen an apple harvester? Not fucking likely. how about an orange harvester? Fucking doubt it.

Apple & Orange Harvesters.

[Sea Skimmer]

Apple & Orange Harvesters.

Those things look and sound pretty damn slow.