They are terrorists now.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-10-02 12:47am

Darth Wong wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:Certainly the extreme back to nature people have more support than skin heads and seperatist militias.
Care to back this up? And how do you know the FBI isn't involved in the hunt?

For ELF/ALF or this case? I was talking about the former while I suspect you're taking it to mean the latter.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-10-02 12:49am

Stormbringer wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:Certainly the extreme back to nature people have more support than skin heads and seperatist militias.
Care to back this up? And how do you know the FBI isn't involved in the hunt?
For ELF/ALF or this case? I was talking about the former while I suspect you're taking it to mean the latter.

Since the latter happens to be the subject of this thread and the ELF/ALF are your personal red-herrings, that is true.

PS. if the ELF had killed somebody, the FBI would probably be on their case (they might be on their case anyway; you still haven't explained how you know that the FBI is ignoring these people).

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-10-02 12:55am

Recent Activities of ELF

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-10-02 12:59am

Since the latter happens to be the subject of this thread and the ELF/ALF are your personal red-herrings, that is true.

Actually, I'm wondering why it takes a murder to go after a designated terrorist group. Especially ones that have a record of fairly major crimes that easily could kill people. To say nothing of those that have.

PS. if the ELF had killed somebody, the FBI would probably be on their case (they might be on their case anyway; you still haven't explained how you know that the FBI is ignoring these people).

It's been discussed here several times. Unfortunately with the search function neutered I can't find any of them.

Edit: It seems that recent events have changed that according to Marina's artcile.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-10-02 01:11am

Notice how that article contains the line "has drawn scrutiny from the FBI". They're obviously investigating these people, so your claims of mysterious exemption from federal investigation due to the TERRIFYING LEFT-WING CONSPIRACY are clearly wrong. Care to concede now?

PS. They still haven't killed anybody.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-10-02 01:33am

Darth Wong wrote:Notice how that article contains the line "has drawn scrutiny from the FBI". They're obviously investigating these people, so your claims of mysterious exemption from federal investigation due to the TERRIFYING LEFT-WING CONSPIRACY are clearly wrong. Care to concede now?

PS. They still haven't killed anybody.

:Has drawn scrutiny from the FBI" is hardly specific given that they've existed for more than a decade and have been declared a terrorist group for most of that. That scrutiny could have been a month ago or ten years.

And I never suggests a left-wing conspiracy. I simply suggested that the popularity of the extreme green philosphy meant they weren't taken seriously or they simply weren't taken seriously.

I never claimed ELF did. ALF on the other hand did, or at least an ALF member.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-10-02 01:37am

So even when presented with clear evidence that your claims about the FBI ignoring them are false, you refuse to concede. I see.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-10-02 01:50am

Darth Wong wrote:So even when presented with clear evidence that your claims about the FBI ignoring them are false, you refuse to concede. I see.

Did you even see where I acknowledged that the FBI has taken an interest in them?

Stormbringer wrote:Edit: It seems that recent events have changed that according to Marina's artcile.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-10-02 01:55am

Stormbringer wrote:Did you even see where I acknowledged that the FBI has taken an interest in them?

So do you concede that your "the FBI ignores eco-terrorists because of the left-wing conspiracy" argument was bullshit? Because I'm not sure exactly what you're conceding there.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-10-02 02:01am

Darth Wong wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:Did you even see where I acknowledged that the FBI has taken an interest in them?
So do you concede that your "the FBI ignores eco-terrorists because of the left-wing conspiracy" argument was bullshit? Because I'm not sure exactly what you're conceding there.

I didn't postulate any sort of conspiracy theory at all for starters. It's you that brought that up.

My point was that the popularity of their veiw seems to have lead federal law enforcement to either apathy or dimissal. Until recently a lot of people considered ELF no more than hippy-vandals.

I'm agreeing that the FBI is involved now but I'm not convinced that they did much anything up until very recently.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-10-02 02:04am

Stormbringer wrote:I didn't postulate any sort of conspiracy theory at all for starters. It's you that brought that up.

Oh really!

Stormbringer wrote:Which begs the question of why no one has done shit about these fuckers. Groups like ELF and ALF have been designated terrorists for years now and nothing has been done. I guess it's because their cause is espoused by a lot of the green crowd; even if they abhor the methods.

Looks to me like you're saying the eco-terrorists are being protected by the "green crowd", which somehow has influence over the FBI. If that's not a wacko conspiracy theory, what is it?

My point was that the popularity of their veiw seems to have lead federal law enforcement to either apathy or dimissal. Until recently a lot of people considered ELF no more than hippy-vandals.

Yet you provide no source whatsoever for your claim that they have received special treatment from the FBI.

I'm agreeing that the FBI is involved now but I'm not convinced that they did much anything up until very recently.

More sourceless claims. YOU have made the claim that the FBI has given them special treatment; the burden of proof is yours.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-10-02 02:10am

Darth Wong wrote:
Stormbringer wrote:I didn't postulate any sort of conspiracy theory at all for starters. It's you that brought that up.
Oh really!
Stormbringer wrote:Which begs the question of why no one has done shit about these fuckers. Groups like ELF and ALF have been designated terrorists for years now and nothing has been done. I guess it's because their cause is espoused by a lot of the green crowd; even if they abhor the methods.
Looks to me like you're saying the eco-terrorists are being protected by the "green crowd", which somehow has influence over the FBI. If that's not a wacko conspiracy theory, what is it?

And where did I say that? I said the popularity of their cause led to their being neglected.

Darth Wong wrote:
My point was that the popularity of their veiw seems to have lead federal law enforcement to either apathy or dimissal. Until recently a lot of people considered ELF no more than hippy-vandals.
Yet you provide no source whatsoever for your claim that they have received special treatment from the FBI.
I'm agreeing that the FBI is involved now but I'm not convinced that they did much anything up until very recently.
More sourceless claims. YOU have made the claim that the FBI has given them special treatment; the burden of proof is yours.

If the search function wasn't neutered it would a simple matter to retrieve the article. Unfortunatley I don't tend to save old news articles and have no other way of finding the information I was refering too.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-10-02 02:16am

I do not think any can deny that extremist enviromentalists compose a larger segment of the voting populace than, for example, Muslims. This could be confirmed simply by comparing the percentage of the Muslim which is registered to vote with the number of people who voted for the Green Party in the last election.

Obviously not all of these people support ELF; quite the contrary. However, there is a certain level of "sympathy" if one wills that usually appears--a willingness to defend criminal acts until they reach a point of atrociousness that is intolerable--among the ideologically similiar. This also concerned in the Republican party in regard to the militia movement after Ruby Ridge and before Oklahoma City.

So I don't think it totally unreasonable to postulate that certain government or elected officials have played down ELF due to a desire to retain/win back the extremist enviromentalist wing. Especially this might be desireable for democrats after Gore was perceived to lose due to Nader's candidacy in 2000; however, because that coincides with a Republican administration and the appointment of Republican-leaning officials to the cabinet, I do not think it could seriously be argued that it has affected recent FBI policy towards ELF in any relevant way.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-10-02 02:19am

TrailerParkJawa wrote: Mike is right, this is serious. It is only a matter of time before one the pipe bombs kills or wounds a security guard

FUCKING HELL

My brother works as a Security guard for some biomed company here in
Rockville.

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-10-02 02:30am

MKSheppard wrote:
My brother works as a Security guard for some biomed company here in
Rockville.

Well, I'm serious when I say don't tell us which one.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2003-10-02 04:33am

Jacob Sherman, a student at Portland State University, said he fell under the spell of Michael J. Scarpitti, known as Tre Arrow, a forest activist who is now the FBI's most-wanted "eco-terrorist."

Tre Arrow? Wasn't that the dumbfuck who camped out on some ledge on a building in Portland OR?

Oh, and from the Duchess' link:

The ELF is the FBI's No. 1 domestic terrorism priority.