Winning hearts and minds the FUCKING STUPID way

[Crown]

I would really like to know who ordered this to happen, I mean someone must have said 'eye for an eye' at some point, and I would genuinly like to see them come forward and accept their dues.

[Darth Wong]

The problem is that the US armed forces are taking advice on occupation methods from the IDF. For decades, we've been condoning Israel's method of punishing the whole population for the crimes of the extremists, even though it only breeds more hate. Why is the folly of this behaviour so much more obvious when it happens in Iraq?

[Howedar]

Because people are much more knowledgable about the actions in Iraq than those in Israel, where hundreds of years of historical knowledge are necessary to really understand whats going on.

[Stuart Mackey]

The problem is that the US armed forces are taking advice on occupation methods from the IDF.

If they wanted adviceon sorting out this kind of mess, they should have talked to NZ, we know how to do a damn sight beter than the US, and we have a track record of doing it right.

[JodoForce]

I'm all ears--can you give some examples?

[Vympel]

The problem is that the US armed forces are taking advice on occupation methods from the IDF. For decades, we've been condoning Israel's method of punishing the whole population for the crimes of the extremists, even though it only breeds more hate. Why is the folly of this behaviour so much more obvious when it happens in Iraq?

You're more right than you know- they've bought into IDF tactics to the extent that they're accepting IDF 'urban warfare' tapes to teach them how to deal with the insurgence. I'm sure bulldozers are somewhere in those tapes.

[JodoForce]

I suppose we will soon see US troops bombing random places on the map designated 'terrorist HQs'.

[JodoForce]

Random heavily populated ares on the map, that is.

[PainRack]

Australia and Britain are working with the US armed forces, right?

Australia, with her track record in East Timor recently, Britain with her century of urban insurrection record, right? Why consult with the IDF when you have those two allies right there?

[Tsyroc]

Clearly my sarcasm is lost on you. I was sarcastically referring to people like Shep who apparently think that there's a fixed number of terrorist fanatics in the world, and drawing them into Iraq for a grand battle royal (HA HA!) will mean that there are fewer to endanger Americans elsewhere.

Rarelly is sarcasm lost on me

Actually I was beign sarcastic too but managed to leave off the requisite sarcastic smiley faces.

Basically I agree with you.

[salm]

Australia and Britain are working with the US armed forces, right?

Australia, with her track record in East Timor recently, Britain with her century of urban insurrection record, right? Why consult with the IDF when you have those two allies right there?

IIRC there are also some italian forces stationed in irak who do a pretty good job. they give the jobless work like painting buildings or repairing stuff instead of tearing more stuff down and in general acting like assholes.

[Nathan F]

I would reeeeealy like to see a secondary source. I have an odd feeling that we aren't hearing the entire story here...

[Worlds Spanner]

I would reeeeealy like to see a secondary source. I have an odd feeling that we aren't hearing the entire story here...

THANK GOD!!!

For a while I was sure that everyone was totally agreed, and it felt unnatural!

[Darth Wong]

I would reeeeealy like to see a secondary source. I have an odd feeling that we aren't hearing the entire story here...

After months of reflexively denying any news story which is unfavourable to the US (and repeatedly making a fool of yourself in the process), you still show no signs of enlightenment.

This is a small story from an isolated community which probably had only the one reporter present. If you're going to accuse him of being a habitual liar, you'll have to do better than simply pointing out that CNN wasn't there.

[Stuart Mackey]

I'm all ears--can you give some examples?

East Timor, Malaysia, Boganville, Solomons..wherever we go in General. Trick is, you have to respect the people of the country and their culture, dont look down on them and treat them as equels.

[Vympel]

An Iraqi perspective:

Palms and Punishment...
Everyone has been wondering about the trees being cut down in Dhuluaya area. Dhuluaya is an area near Sammara, north of Baghdad. It?s an area popular for its wonderful date palms, citrus trees and grape vines. The majority of the people who live in the area are simple landowners who have been making a living off of the orchards they?ve been cultivating for decades.

Orchards in many areas in Iraq- especially central Iraq- are almost like oases in the desert. From kilometers away, you can see the vivid green of proud date palms shimmering through the waves of heat and smoke, reaching for a sky rarely overcast. Just seeing the orchards brings a sort of peace.

There are over 500 different kinds of palm trees in Iraq. They vary in type from short, stocky trees with a shock of haphazard, green fronds? to long, slim trees with a collection of leaves that seem almost symmetrical in their perfection. A palm tree is known as a ?nakhla? and never fails to bring a sense of satisfaction and admiration. They are the pride and joy of Iraqi farmers and landowners. A garden isn?t complete if there isn?t a palm tree gracing it. We locate houses by giving the area, the street and then, ?Well, it?s the fourth- no, wait? the fifth house on the left? or was it the right? Oh never mind- it?s the house on the street with the tallest palm tree.?

The palm trees, besides being lovely, are highly useful. In the winter months, they act as ?resorts? for the exotic birds that flock to Iraq. We often see various species of birds roosting between the leaves, picking on the sweet dates and taunting the small boys below who can?t reach the nests. In the summer months, the ?female palms? provide hundreds of dates for immediate consumption, storage, or processing.

In Iraq, there are over 300 different types of dates- each with its own name, texture and flavor. Some are dark brown, and soft, while others are bright yellow, crunchy and have a certain ?tang? that is particular to dates. It?s very difficult to hate dates- if you don?t like one type, you are bound to like another. Dates are also used to produce ?dibiss?, a dark, smooth, date syrup. This dibiss is eaten in some areas with rice, and in others it is used as a syrup with bread and butter. Often it is used as a main source of sugar in Iraqi sweets.

Iraqi ?khal? or vinegar is also produced from dates? it is dark and tangy and mixed with olive oil, makes the perfect seasoning to a fresh cucumber and tomato salad. Iraqi ?areg?, a drink with very high alcoholic content, is often made with dates. In the summer, families trade baskets and trays of dates- allowing neighbors and friends to sample the fruit growing on their palms with the enthusiasm of proud parents showing off a child?s latest accomplishment...

Every bit of a palm is an investment. The fronds and leaves are dried and used to make beautiful, pale-yellow baskets, brooms, mats, bags, hats, wall hangings and even used for roofing. The fronds are often composed of thick, heavy wood at their ends and are used to make lovely, seemingly-delicate furniture- similar to the bamboo chairs and tables of the Far East. The low-quality dates and the date pits are used as animal feed for cows and sheep. Some of the date pits are the source of a sort of ?date oil? that can be used for cooking. The palm itself, should it be cut down, is used as firewood, or for building.

My favorite use for date pits is? beads. Each pit is smoothed and polished by hand, pierced in its center and made into necklaces, belts and rosaries. The finished product is rough, yet graceful, and wholly unique.

Palm trees are often planted alongside citrus trees in orchards for more than just decoration or economy. Palm trees tower above all other trees and provide shade for citrus trees, which whither under the Iraqi sun. Depending on the type, it takes some palm trees an average of 5 ? 10 years to reach their final height (some never actually stop growing), and it takes an average of 5 -7 years for most palms to bear fruit.

The death of a palm tree is taken very seriously. Farmers consider it devastating and take the loss very personally. Each tree is so unique, it feels like a member of the family... I remember watching scenes from the war a couple of days after the bombing began- one image that stuck in my mind was that of a palm tree broken in half, the majestic fronds wilting and dragging on the ground. The sight affected me almost as much as the corpses.

Historically, palm trees have represented the rugged, stoic beauty of Iraq and its people. They are a reminder that no matter how difficult the circumstances, there is hope for life and productivity. The palm trees in the orchards have always stood lofty and resolute- oblivious of heat, political strife or war? until today.

One of the most famous streets in Baghdad is ?shari3 il mattar? or ?The Airport Street?. It is actually two streets- one leading to Baghdad Airport and the other leading from it, into Baghdad. The streets are very simple and plain. Their magnificence lay in the palm trees growing on either side, and in the isle separating them. Entering Baghdad from the airport, and seeing the palm trees enclosing you from both sides, is a reminder that you have entered the country of 30 million palms.

Soon after the occupation, many of the palms on these streets were hacked down by troops for ?security reasons?. We watched, horrified, as they were chopped down and dragged away to be laid side by side in mass graves overflowing with brown and wilting green. Although these trees were beautiful, no one considered them their livelihood. Unlike the trees Patrick Cockburn describes in Dhuluaya.

Several orchards in Dhuluaya are being cut down? except it?s not only Dhuluaya? it?s also Ba?aquba, the outskirts of Baghdad and several other areas. The trees are bulldozed and trampled beneath heavy machinery. We see the residents and keepers of these orchards begging the troops to spare the trees, holding up crushed branches, leaves and fruit- not yet ripe- from the ground littered with a green massacre. The faces of the farmers are crushed and amazed at the atrocity. I remember one wrinkled face holding up 4 oranges from the ground, still green (our citrus fruit ripens in the winter) and screaming at the camera- ?Is this freedom? Is this democracy?!? And his son, who was about 10, stood there with tears of rage streaming down his cheeks and quietly said, ?We want 5 troops dead for each tree they cut down? five troops.? A ?terrorist?, perhaps? Or a terrorized child who had to watch his family?s future hacked down in the name of democracy and freedom?

Patrick Cockburn says that Dhuluaya is a Sunni area- which is true. Sunnis dominate Dhuluaya. What he doesn?t mention is that the Khazraji tribe, whose orchards were assaulted, are a prominent Shi?a tribe in Iraq.

For those not interested in reading the article, the first line summarizes it perfectly, ?US soldiers driving bulldozers, with jazz blaring from loudspeakers, have uprooted ancient groves of date palms as well as orange and lemon trees in central Iraq as part of a new policy of collective punishment of farmers who do not give information about guerrillas attacking US troops.?

?which reminds me of another line from an article brought to my attention yesterday?
?A dozen years after Saddam Hussein ordered the vast marshes of southeastern Iraq drained, transforming idyllic wetlands into a barren moonscape to eliminate a hiding place for Shiite Muslim political opponents??

Déjà vu, perhaps? Or maybe the orchards differ from the marshlands in that Saddam wasn?t playing jazz when he dried up the marshlands?

[InnerBrat]

Source for this one, Vymp?

I'm gobsmacked, I really am. What the fuck are these guys playing at?

[Vympel]

Source for this one, Vymp?

I'm gobsmacked, I really am. What the fuck are these guys playing at?

A Baghdad blogger

[InnerBrat]

That link didn't work.

This one should...

Thanks.

[Vympel]

That link didn't work.

This one should...

Thanks.

Some very interesting perspectives there.

[Alyrium Denryle]

What the fuck!!!!

We go over there to "liberate" them from a brutal dicator, then we go and destroy their livelyhoods!??

That is it, I am distributing this article to as many people as I can. To many people re ignornt of what is going on in iraq... That needs to stop.

[CJvR]

...is not a good idea. Ask the Germans, who used it on a scale and with a savagery hardly imaginable, what the results were. Unless you take it to the limit and outright exterminate the population such methods will never do more than generate more resistance. Nothing better than seeing your home and livelyhood go up in smoke to convince you who the badguys are.

[Durandal]

Vympel, please go through the effort to replace the question marks with proper quotes or whatever they're standing in for. They make the article very difficult to read.

I sympathize with the poor farmers we've decided to make examples of, but the first half of the article read like some sort of hippie wet dream. Mid-way through, I was thinking, "Christ if I have to hear one more paragraph about fucking palm trees, I'm going to be sick." This guy overplayed the "Palm trees are sacred" bit and underplayed the, "People are having their livelihood bulldozed" bit.

[Nathan F]

I would reeeeealy like to see a secondary source. I have an odd feeling that we aren't hearing the entire story here...

After months of reflexively denying any news story which is unfavourable to the US (and repeatedly making a fool of yourself in the process), you still show no signs of enlightenment.

This is a small story from an isolated community which probably had only the one reporter present. If you're going to accuse him of being a habitual liar, you'll have to do better than simply pointing out that CNN wasn't there.

I did not once say he was a liar. I don't doubt this is happening, and I know that there are some incidents that have happened that are unfavorable to the US but happened (civilian deaths being the key one, I don't like it, but I know it happened). But how is it wrong to question news stories? When an accusation like this is made, I want to find out why it happened, and I would like to find some sort of secondary source. There is nothing wrong with being suspicious of news stories, and you would be good to take heed to that. Is it so wrong for me to question a source with a decidedly anti-war slant (namely, the Independent) on a news story like this? I find that perfectly reasonable, and you have absolutely no place to ridicule me for wanting to see more evidence. Like I said, it is not wise to take everything you hear, whether for or against the war, at face value.

[Darth Wong]

I did not once say he was a liar. I don't doubt this is happening, and I know that there are some incidents that have happened that are unfavorable to the US but happened (civilian deaths being the key one, I don't like it, but I know it happened). But how is it wrong to question news stories?

Because your question is vapid and useless. You failed to bother presenting any hypothesis as to what the person might be leaving out which might make this incident acceptable.

When an accusation like this is made, I want to find out why it happened, and I would like to find some sort of secondary source. There is nothing wrong with being suspicious of news stories, and you would be good to take heed to that. Is it so wrong for me to question a source with a decidedly anti-war slant (namely, the Independent) on a news story like this?

No, as long as you can cite some history of fraudulent misrepresentation on their part rather than simply acting as though an "anti-war slant" makes everything they say likely to be a fraud. A story like this is not likely to have too many sources because only one reporter appears to have been there.

I find that perfectly reasonable, and you have absolutely no place to ridicule me for wanting to see more evidence. Like I said, it is not wise to take everything you hear, whether for or against the war, at face value.

No one's saying that. However, you still need to present some kind of reason for your implicit claim (which you won't admit to, but which is essential for your doubt) that the source is likely to be fraudulent. It's not really that hard to believe. People under great stress (and the Americans are under great stress right now, being blown up by the twos and threes every damned day) are more likely to do things which may seem shocking to those of us back in the civilized world.