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The Duchess of Zeon
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Vympel wrote:Clearly, Duchess did not read the article. People with Bush-love signs were not hauled off.
Of course I didn't read it--I only skimmed it. It's by Dave Lindorff and that means it's 90% innuendo by-fucking-definition.

Seriously, I wouldn't be surprised if the guy arrested had been picking a fight with those Bush supporters he was in the middle of--another common police procedure is to seperate opposite sides of protests. There could be considerable exagerrations in the article.

*shrugs* I don't know and I sure as hell am not trusting the information in that article. I was just giving the standard explanation for a standard occurance because the evidence--having less credibility than creationism--warranted nothing more.

Also, how did he know the route of the Presidential motorcade? The fact that he was staking out a position along it is automatically dodgy--these things are rarely set in advance for security reasons. Those Bush supporters might have never seen the President go by.
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Post by Vympel »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Of course I didn't read it--I only skimmed it. It's by Dave Lindorff and that means it's 90% innuendo by-fucking-definition.
:roll: Ever the apologist. "I don't like what it's saying, I haven't even read it, the author's some guy who I don't like, therefore it's by definition wrong. Now watch as I appeal to ignorance to apologize for preferential treatment being given to Bush cocksuckers."
Seriously, I wouldn't be surprised if the guy arrested had been picking a fight with those Bush supporters he was in the middle of--another common police procedure is to seperate opposite sides of protests. There could be considerable exagerrations in the article.

*shrugs* I don't know and I sure as hell am not trusting the information in that article. I was just giving the standard explanation for a standard occurance because the evidence--having less credibility than creationism--warranted nothing more.
The evidence has less credibility than creationism? Why? Because it's findings are clearly uncomfortable to you? That's the only clear vibe I'm getting- you don't like what it says, so simply impugn the author's credibility.
Also, how did he know the route of the Presidential motorcade? The fact that he was staking out a position along it is automatically dodgy--these things are rarely set in advance for security reasons. Those Bush supporters might have never seen the President go by.


So Bush supporters regularly stake out positions on random roads in the hope that Bush might go by? Please. The ACLU has filed against 17 different instances where protesters have been moved out the Dear Leader's sight at presidential events- trying to insert sinister motives to justify hauling someoneoff just for staking out a position on a road in between the airport and the place he was going with a protest sign doesn't change that.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Vympel wrote:
:roll: Ever the apologist. "I don't like what it's saying, I haven't even read it, the author's some guy who I don't like, therefore it's by definition wrong. Now watch as I appeal to ignorance to apologize for preferential treatment being given to Bush cocksuckers."
You know, bias can enter into an article, Vympel, especially one written by the guy who has compared Bush to Hitler in his other articles. I'm sorry that the world does not operate like a perfect model of rigorous analytical logic, but that's why we often have the problems that create these debates in the first place. Sources are often biased or intentionally deceptive and a cursory check could have shown that the history of the author of this one is really quite bad. Incidentally--why didn't you post the link for that article? I find that curious.
So Bush supporters regularly stake out positions on random roads in the hope that Bush might go by? Please.
Have you ever been to a real political rally? They're often quite boring events where a bunch of people show up and nothing happens. The idea of both the demonstrations and the counter-demonstrations being thrown out of spontaneous anger/support for the President on hearing he's showing up (probably a couple days in advance) and managing to miss his motorcade--in part for intentional security reasons of bypass (Like, "Go to Route B, Crowd along Route A")--seems an entirely sensible possibility that bears some mention at least.
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Post by Vympel »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: You know, bias can enter into an article, Vympel, especially one written by the guy who has compared Bush to Hitler in his other articles. I'm sorry that the world does not operate like a perfect model of rigorous analytical logic, but that's why we often have the problems that create these debates in the first place. Sources are often biased or intentionally deceptive and a cursory check could have shown that the history of the author of this one is really quite bad. Incidentally--why didn't you post the link for that article? I find that curious.
Because it's off salon.com and they require a free day pass to look at the entirety of their content- inconvenient enough that less people would read it if I just posed the link. Or did you think it was off some rabid 'new world order conspiracy' left winger site? If you like, call up the ACLU and ask them if what they're doing (i.e. filing suit) is accurate, if you're so eager to deride the article.
Have you ever been to a real political rally? They're often quite boring events where a bunch of people show up and nothing happens. The idea of both the demonstrations and the counter-demonstrations being thrown out of spontaneous anger/support for the President on hearing he's showing up (probably a couple days in advance) and managing to miss his motorcade--in part for intentional security reasons of bypass (Like, "Go to Route B, Crowd along Route A")--seems an entirely sensible possibility that bears some mention at least.
This has happened at multiple events, not just motorcades, and has consistently involved protesters being segregated from the supporters, who are allowed to stand closer.
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Post by Stuart Mackey »

Vympel wrote:
This has happened at multiple events, not just motorcades, and has consistently involved protesters being segregated from the supporters, who are allowed to stand closer.
Not to mention arrested, which is a matter of public recored and should be easy to verify if one had the time or inclination.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Vympel wrote:
Because it's off salon.com and they require a free day pass to look at the entirety of their content- inconvenient enough that less people would read it if I just posed the link. Or did you think it was off some rabid 'new world order conspiracy' left winger site?
Salon.com does have its moments, and is pretty lightweight for a news-source, too, though I grant they're more reputable than some of the other places his articles have appeared, and occasionally produce something of quality.

This has happened at multiple events, not just motorcades, and has consistently involved protesters being segregated from the supporters, who are allowed to stand closer.
Well, the segregation of opposing groups to prevent hostility arising from their directly intermingling is a totally standard practice. But, heck, if old Davie-boy likes the Judge who's going to be hearing this, I guess that's even-handed enough for anyone on this board (except possibly Hamel), and we can just settle back and see what the court ruling will be.
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Post by Yuri Prime »

Duchess, if you're so convinced that there was violence involved on the part of the anti-Bush protester, then it stands to reason that there would more likely than not be a conflicting report of this elsewhere. Perhaps your time would be better spent looking for that than insisting that this article is lying.
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Post by Spyder »

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
This is the USSS, Durandal, not the Bush Troopers.
Am I the only one that read that as "Unitied States Soviet Socialist..."?
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Post by Companion Cube »

I keep itching to use the word 'BushStapo' in some inane political comment, but perhaps I should refrain from doing so for the time being...
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Post by Tsyroc »

Here's a link to the emails that responded to the article on Salon.com. All of them appear to support the original article.


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3rd Impact wrote:I keep itching to use the word 'BushStapo' in some inane political comment, but perhaps I should refrain from doing so for the time being...
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

So Duchess... will the ACLU itself be a more reputable source? Or will yu just say they are lying?

http://www.aclu.org/FreeSpeech/FreeSpee ... 13699&c=86



Free Speech : Right to protest

Secret Service Ordered Local Police to Restrict Anti-Bush Protesters at Rallies, ACLU Charges in Unprecedented Nationwide Lawsuit


September 23, 2003




FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

WASHINGTON – At events attended by President Bush and other senior federal officials around the country, the Secret Service has been discriminating against protesters in violation of their free speech rights, the American Civil Liberties Union charged today in the first nationwide lawsuit of its kind.

“There is nothing more American than raising your voice in protest, and there is nothing more un-American than a government that attempts to hit the mute button when it doesn’t like what it hears,” said Witold Walczak, Legal Director of the ACLU of Greater Pittsburgh and a member of the national ACLU legal team that filed today’s lawsuit.


When President Bush came to Neville Island, PA last year, protesters were herded behind a chain-link fence in a remote area while supporters were allowed to line the motorcade route. One man who refused to be corralled was arrested.




During President Bush's visit to Neville Island, PA last year, supporters were allowed to line the motorcade route, while protesters were herded to a remote area out of sight of the press corps and the President.


The ACLU said it had seen a significant spike in such incidents under the Bush Administration, prompting it to charge officials with a “pattern and practice” of discrimination against those who disagree with government policies.

According to ACLU legal papers, local police, acting at the direction of the Secret Service, violated the rights of protesters in two ways: people expressing views critical of the government were moved further away from public officials while those with pro-government views were allowed to remain closer; or everyone expressing a view was herded into what is commonly known as a “protest zone,” leaving those who merely observe, but express no view, to remain closer.

Security is not at issue, the ACLU noted, because anyone intent on harming officials would simply carry a sign with a supportive message or no sign at all. “The individuals we are talking about didn’t pose a security threat; they posed a political threat,” Walczak said.

The case was filed on behalf of four national advocacy groups that engage in frequent demonstrations around the country. The groups are: Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN), United for Peace and Justice (UPFJ), USAction, and National Organization for Women (NOW).

The national lawsuit, which was filed in Philadelphia, originated earlier this year when the ACLU of Pennsylvania sought enforcement of a 1988 decree requiring city officials to treat protesters fairly. Today’s action amends that lawsuit to include similar incidents around the country. The Secret Service is named as the federal defendant in the lawsuit, along with the Philadelphia Police Department for its role in the recent demonstrations in that city.


ACLU of Pennsylvania Legal Director Stefan Presser, who obtained the 1988 decree and is part of the national legal team in today’s lawsuit, noted that he has had to return to court several times following incidents in which local protesters were kept further away from the site of presidential visits than Administration supporters. A high-ranking official of the Philadelphia police told Presser that he was only following Secret Service orders.

“The Secret Service’s directives, which have the effect of deciding which messages are to be afforded favorable treatment, are completely at odds with our Constitution’s guarantees of free speech and rights of protest,” Presser said.

The ACLU’s legal papers listed more than a dozen examples of police censorship at events around the country, saying that all had been initiated at the behest of the Secret Service and that such incidents are on the rise. The incidents described took place in Arizona, California, Connecticut, Indiana, Michigan, Missouri, New Jersey, New Mexico, South Carolina, Texas and Washington, among other places.

In one example, retired steelworker Bill Neel, 66, was handcuffed and detained by local officials at a rally in western Pennsylvania last year after he refused to be herded into a remote “designated free speech zone” located behind a six-foot chain-link fence.

“As far as I’m concerned, the whole country is a free speech zone,” Neel said. “If the Bush Administration has its way, anyone who criticizes them will be out of sight and out of mind. Anyone who calls himself a patriot ought to be as concerned about this as I am.”

Neel’s story and similar incidents are also described in a May 2003 ACLU report, Freedom Under Fire: Dissent in Post-9/11 America. The report looks at government crackdowns on dissent in a variety of contexts, including at presidential and vice-presidential appearances, in public schools and at anti-war rallies.

Today’s case is ACORN et al. v. City of Philadelphia et al., Civil Action No. 03-4312, filed in the U.S. District Court for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania before Judge John Fullam.

ACLU attorneys in the case are Presser, Walczak, ACLU national senior staff attorney Chris Hansen and Art Spitzer, Legal Director of the ACLU of the National Capital Area.
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

Alyrium, the archangel Gabriel descending from heaven with a full chorus of seraphim singing Beethovens Ninth and personally telling her what happened complete with AngelCam video surrevilance of the incident wouldn't be a reliable enough source in this case, simply because the good Duchess doesn't want to admit that something wrong happened.
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Well to be honest, I would commit myself to a mental institution if I saw that...
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:Well to be honest, I would commit myself to a mental institution if I saw that...
OK, fine, CNN or FOXNews. :P
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Post by SirNitram »

Gil Hamilton wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:Well to be honest, I would commit myself to a mental institution if I saw that...
OK, fine, CNN or FOXNews. :P
I'd doubt anything from FOXNews on basic principles.
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Gil Hamilton wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:Well to be honest, I would commit myself to a mental institution if I saw that...
OK, fine, CNN or FOXNews. :P
I dont really trust them either... How about C-SPAN?
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

What ever is considered a reliable source. :P
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The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Durandal wrote:Ah, so a group of people holding "We Love Gee Dubya!" signs and chanting incoherent slogans about Bush's divine place at the head of the nation would be shuffled off by the Secret Service as well? Somehow, I doubt it.
This is the USSS, Durandal, not the Bush Troopers. They would haul off Bush haters. They would haul off Bush lovers. They would haul off ninety-year old grandmothers. They would haul off two-year old kids and seperate them from their parents. They would haul off Ghandi and Mother Theresa.


That's a lot of humorous imagery, but it disagrees with what the article says. People supporting Bush were not being hauled off by the Secret Service. Did you miss the part about the "free speech areas" also being called "protest zones"? Of course not, you didn't even RTFA. Do you think that a redneck with his mouth attached to Bush's cock is going to be hauled off to a "protest zone" for having a sign that says, "We love Gee Dubya!"?
They have one mission in life--to protect the President, regardless of his political affiliation--and their only goal and happiness is to be remembered as absolutely, utterly, totally, unswervingly anal-retentive to the max in carrying out that mission.
So then why do they even allow the public within a mile of him at all? People with signs trying to attract attention to themselves aren't going to be presidential assassins! The only thing they're protecting the public from is bad publicity. If they were truly politically neutral, as they should be, the "protest zones" wouldn't be sizable fractions of a mile away from where the main crowd is where the media conveniently won't spot them.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Gil Hamilton wrote:Alyrium, the archangel Gabriel descending from heaven with a full chorus of seraphim singing Beethovens Ninth and personally telling her what happened complete with AngelCam video surrevilance of the incident wouldn't be a reliable enough source in this case, simply because the good Duchess doesn't want to admit that something wrong happened.
The ACLU is posting statements on behalf of their clients, so clearly they're not a reliable source.
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The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Gil Hamilton wrote:Alyrium, the archangel Gabriel descending from heaven with a full chorus of seraphim singing Beethovens Ninth and personally telling her what happened complete with AngelCam video surrevilance of the incident wouldn't be a reliable enough source in this case, simply because the good Duchess doesn't want to admit that something wrong happened.
The ACLU is posting statements on behalf of their clients, so clearly they're not a reliable source.
It DOES however cooberate the article. And the ACLU would not accept a case that they knew didnt violate civil rights. If the protestors were violent the ACLU would not accept the fucking case.
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The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Gil Hamilton wrote:Alyrium, the archangel Gabriel descending from heaven with a full chorus of seraphim singing Beethovens Ninth and personally telling her what happened complete with AngelCam video surrevilance of the incident wouldn't be a reliable enough source in this case, simply because the good Duchess doesn't want to admit that something wrong happened.
The ACLU is posting statements on behalf of their clients, so clearly they're not a reliable source.
And if someone was posting statements on behalf of the Secret Service? Would they be considered a reliable source? Is it really so difficult for you to believe that a president who appointed John Ashcroft as the attorney general would use the Secret Service as his way of drowning out negative press?
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Local Newspaper Account.

Local T.V. account.

The story is moderated here though I grant that the USSS policy of not commenting on pending litigation prevents an alternate side from being heard. The ACLU thinks they have enough for a lawsuit, one also grants--which does mean that something wrong actually occured.
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The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Gil Hamilton wrote:Alyrium, the archangel Gabriel descending from heaven with a full chorus of seraphim singing Beethovens Ninth and personally telling her what happened complete with AngelCam video surrevilance of the incident wouldn't be a reliable enough source in this case, simply because the good Duchess doesn't want to admit that something wrong happened.
The ACLU is posting statements on behalf of their clients, so clearly they're not a reliable source.
Again, please find a conflicting story. When the President came here to visit Tucson, some sucidial guy ran the roadblock a day before and was shot. It was in the news. Violence related to Presidential appearences rarely evades the news. Please back up your claim of violence.
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Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Durandal wrote:
And if someone was posting statements on behalf of the Secret Service? Would they be considered a reliable source? Is it really so difficult for you to believe that a president who appointed John Ashcroft as the attorney general would use the Secret Service as his way of drowning out negative press?
Uhm, why do you people get so upset over John Ashcroft? He was effective in his duties as a law enforcement official before at the state level, you know, and that was what he was chosen for. There has never been any substantiated evidence to the claims that he runs around trampling on freedoms left and right. The worst thing he's ever done is cover up an aluminum breast on a statue, so you can blame him for being a Christian morality freak.

Seriously, Durandal, go read--I mean really, really read--some of the stuff that was done during the Hoover era. Read some of the legislation that was passed then! The McCarran Internal Security Act of 1950, for example. PATRIOT is nothing compared to that.
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