Islam - the Tip Toe Factor

theski · Post by **theski** » 2003-10-24 11:16am

Stravo wrote:

In a thread many months ago I proposed a Marshall plan for the Middle East. Just pour billions of dollars in rebuilding infrastructure and schools

Here is what I see is the problem.. How to fund it?

The vast complaining we hear about the $20 billion given to Iraq.. "If they can build a school in Iraq why not here? So who will pay for it.. ??

Just more questions I quess

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-10-24 11:20am

theski wrote:Stravo wrote:
In a thread many months ago I proposed a Marshall plan for the Middle East. Just pour billions of dollars in rebuilding infrastructure and schools
Here is what I see is the problem.. How to fund it?

The vast complaining we hear about the $20 billion given to Iraq.. "If they can build a school in Iraq why not here? So who will pay for it.. ??

Just more questions I quess

The same way we can fund billions to kill the muslims we can find funding to help rebuild them. It doesn not just have to be a US effort, if the Europeans really cared about the Middle East as they claimed when we went in, they should pony up some dough as well. Make it some sort of UN super fund, whetever it takes to drag those people out of the squallor that makes them content to be medieval in mentality and action as these Fundamentlaists celebrate.

BTW I always found it funny that this asshole Bin Laden supports a return to traditional ways yet uses cell phones and dialysis machines to stay alive. Why not pray to Allah to cure you of the kidney infection?

AniThyng · Post by **AniThyng** » 2003-10-24 11:23am

Such bullshit.. Terrorism was here long before the Bush Admin and it will be here long after.. and Hugs and Kisses won't either..

terrorism in the name of the palestenians will be rather harder to carry out if the palestenians have a viable state of thier own, no?

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-10-24 11:24am

AniThyng wrote:
Such bullshit.. Terrorism was here long before the Bush Admin and it will be here long after.. and Hugs and Kisses won't either..

terrorism in the name of the palestenians will be rather harder to carry out if the palestenians have a viable state of thier own, no?

Oh HELL NO, we're not going to ruin this thread with dredging up Israeli-Palestinian issues.

theski · Post by **theski** » 2003-10-24 11:30am

Stravo wrote:

The same way we can fund billions to kill the muslims we can find funding to help rebuild them. It doesn not just have to be a US effort, if the Europeans really cared about the Middle East as they claimed when we went in, they should pony up some dough as well. Make it some sort of UN super fund, whetever it takes to drag those people out of the squallor that makes them content to be medieval in mentality and action as these Fundamentlaists celebrate.

I'm glad not everyone is as cynical as me...

IMHO All that would accomplish is to have better fed Radicals.. I think they want to be the dominant Religion in the world. They look at as Us vs Them

AniThyng · Post by **AniThyng** » 2003-10-24 11:42am

gah. well. yes. sorry man, but i felt it was a valid response to his dismissal of solving the root causes that serve as rallying points for alot of these terrorist organisations as bullshit.

i agree that contented well fed muslims will not feel the urge to blow themselves up for the cause. but that will take time to build it up, the economies, and it would be much smoothened in the process if at the same time the rethoric of the mullahs is reduced from "destroy <insert certain small country here> and The Great Satan that opresses our brothers" to empty sounding "Destroy the Great Satan who bribes you to his cause"

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-10-24 12:52pm

Stravo wrote:Just to be clear here, the criticism is not of Islam as some seem to be pushing, it is more a criticism of the moderates who find it easier to point to the West and criticize things like profiling but turn a blind eye to the rot in their own midsts.

And what makes you think that the "rot" is in the midst of the moderate Muslims? How is it any more intrinsically connected to them than it is to you, since you are also a member of a Jehovah religion?

Someone else mentioned that the Moderates were afriad of being killed, what does that say about the state of Isalm and the radical fringe.

What do you think the Moderates should do, then? Decry the use of violence? They're already doing that. Military action? Sorry, they don't have the ability. Refuse to criticize America when it does things to them? That's a bit ridiculous, isn't it? If you are connected with a bunch of terrorists solely through race and/or a tenuous religious connection, wouldn't you be unhappy if your friends and family are getting harassed and discriminated against by Americans? Isn't that the exact same feeling that blacks have when they are mistreated by police because of the existence of black gangs?

Other than that, I agree with your basic argument that the root of the problem is the misery of life in those countries.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-10-24 12:55pm

theski wrote:I'm glad not everyone is as cynical as me... IMHO All that would accomplish is to have better fed Radicals.. I think they want to be the dominant Religion in the world. They look at as Us vs Them

Of course they want to be the dominant religion in the world! They have the same mentality as Christians, remember? But the fact that they're aggressive expansionists doesn't necessarily mean they will continue to use violence. If you applied that same logic to Christians, you would come to the conclusion that they should be wiped out or suppressed.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2003-10-24 01:11pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Stravo wrote:Just to be clear here, the criticism is not of Islam as some seem to be pushing, it is more a criticism of the moderates who find it easier to point to the West and criticize things like profiling but turn a blind eye to the rot in their own midsts.
And what makes you think that the "rot" is in the midst of the moderate Muslims? How is it any more intrinsically connected to them than it is to you, since you are also a member of a Jehovah religion?

What's a Jehovah religion? Jehovah's merely an uneducated translation of the Tetragrammaton by German scholars who didn't know Hebrew. (Yes, I know you were speaking of the Judeo-Christo-Islamic religions, but "Jehovah religions" is as much as misnomer for them as "Creation science" is for Creationism). As for myself, I'm not certain where the rot lies. I've asked some of my friends who are Muslim what they believe, and they tend to feel that it's a dichotomy of wealth, that it's a backlash against what the fundies see as "Western-controlled" governments like the Sauds. They are merely using non-Western aligned nations to base themselves out of to avoid Western snooping. Whether that means the rot is in the moderates, the Arabs, or the West is unclear, as it could be any of the three.

Someone else mentioned that the Moderates were afriad of being killed, what does that say about the state of Isalm and the radical fringe.
What do you think the Moderates should do, then? Decry the use of violence? They're already doing that.

I don't often hear much of a protest from any of the "moderates." Most seem to be more interested in covering their asses and saying "we're not involved in this." That may just be my perception, but it's how it seems to be.

Other than that, I agree with your basic argument that the root of the problem is the misery of life in those countries.

I think most people are in general consensus on that. Standard of living almost always has a connection to extremism or lack thereof, because people with more to live for are less willing to give it up.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-10-24 01:32pm

Stravo wrote: Also Evilcat I read the full transcript, thank you, many American papers focussed on the Jews contro the world statement to exclusion.

You forgot the part where he railed against the west for allowing sodomy.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-10-24 01:50pm

MKSheppard wrote: You forgot the part where he railed against the west for allowing sodomy.

I'll try to find the source, I've been up for 24 hours straight and I may be
confusing different peoples and/or speeches

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-10-24 01:54pm

MKSheppard wrote:You forgot the part where he railed against the west for allowing sodomy.

You must have him confused with about half the population of the Southern United States.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-10-24 02:01pm

Darth Wong wrote: You must have him confused with about half the population of the Southern United States.

Nope. Found the link.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/ ... 33803.html

Australians, and their European brethren, are a greedy, war-mongering mob who promote free sex and sodomy, are indifferent to incest and want to conquer the world.

So said a teary Dr Mahathir Mohamad yesterday as he opened the last general assembly of his United Malays National Organisation in Kuala Lumpur before he retires in October, speaking with a venom undiminished by his 22 years as Malaysian Prime Minister.

"I am not anti-European. I have many friends and acquaintances who are Europeans. Certainly their media will condemn me as a racist but I consider exposing who the Europeans are has become so important that the risk must be taken," the 77-year-old leader declared, before launching into a career-best diatribe against the West.

He said Europeans, including "those who migrated and set up new nations in America, Australia and New Zealand", wanted "to control the world again".

The Europeans were determined to impose a global culture that included unlimited freedoms and "the practice of free sex, including sodomy, as a right", he said.

"Marriage between male and male, female and female are officially recognised by them. What we regard as incest is not regarded as serious by them.

"The culture and the values which they will force us to accept will be hedonism, unlimited quest for pleasure, the satisfaction of base desires, particularly sexual desires. Our way of life must be the same as their way of life. Asian values do not exist to them."

Dr Mahathir broke down briefly as he thanked the 2200 party delegates for their support over the years. But the tears were restrained compared with his closing speech to the UMNO general assembly last year when he announced his resignation - only to retract it a few hours later.

"They (Europeans) are very clever, brave and have an insatiable curiosity . . . unfortunately they are also very greedy and like to take forcibly the territories and rights of other people," he said.

Referring to the US-led invasion of Iraq, Dr Mahathir said: "They have demonstrated they are ready to invent false allegations in order to go to war to kill children, old people, sick people." The war against terrorism since the attacks of September 11, 2001 was "an excuse for the Anglo-Saxon Europeans to return to their old violent ways".

"Their strategy to fight terrorism is through attacking Muslim countries and Muslims, whether they are guilty or not."

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-10-24 02:03pm

MKSheppard wrote: http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/ ... 33803.html

[/quote]

Granted, that's a quickie summary, I'll try to find the full transcript of that
rant, but I'm tired now, and I need to get going to bed.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-10-24 02:06pm

While searching for it (proving I am never too tired) I ran across this
bit; this guy has a serious problem with sodomy.

http://www.freeanwar.com/news/transcripts.html

On 2 September, 1998 Dato' Seri Anwar Ibrahim, one of Malaysia's most popular political leaders, was dismissed from his position as Deputy Prime Minister and Finance Minister by the Prime Minister, Dato' Seri Dr Mahathir Mohamad. On 3 September, 1998 Anwar was sacked as Deputy President and member of the country's ruling political party - the United Malays National Organisation (UMNO)- by the party president, Dr Mahathir.

Many people were shocked not only by Anwar's dismissal but the bizarre reasons given by Dr Mahathir for the sacking. Dr Mahathir told the whole nation in no uncertain terms that his former Deputy was "a sodomist who also indulged in illicit sex."

AniThyng · Post by **AniThyng** » 2003-10-24 02:07pm

"The culture and the values which they will force us to accept will be hedonism, unlimited quest for pleasure, the satisfaction of base desires, particularly sexual desires. Our way of life must be the same as their way of life. Asian values do not exist to them."

well, except for Japan and possibly Taiwan, that *is* the general attitude of older Asians in asia. sounds like something my grandmother would say, really.

you'll see the same thing sprouted in an american church, i assume.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-10-24 02:10pm

AniThyng wrote: well, except for Japan and possibly Taiwan, that *is* the general attitude of older Asians in asia. sounds like something my grandmother would say, really.

Except it's your Prime Minister spewing forth crap, not a hick. I mean
seriously, your PM is fucked in the head. And he scares the shit out
of me; thank god he is not in a position of any real power.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-10-24 02:12pm

And if this guy is what you call a "moderate", I'd hate to see what you call an "extremeist"

AniThyng · Post by **AniThyng** » 2003-10-24 02:19pm

okay. i will think about this carefully, and will reply calmly and rationaly when i am able.

er. sorry about insulting you in the other thread. heh.

*thinks maybe he should have just stuck to the sci-fi & fantasy forums and ignored politics.*

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-10-24 02:20pm

AniThyng wrote: *thinks maybe he should have just stuck to the sci-fi & fantasy forums and ignored politics.*

Heh, same here for me, except it goes:

WHY OH WHY DID I HAVE TO GET INVOLVED IN POLITICS! I SHOULD HAVE STAYED IN FANFICS!

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-10-24 08:05pm

MKSheppard wrote:While searching for it (proving I am never too tired) I ran across this
bit; this guy has a serious problem with sodomy.

http://www.freeanwar.com/news/transcripts.html

Once again, how does this differentiate him from half the population of the southern United States?

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-10-24 09:26pm

It's clear that the reason for the extremist violence in the mid-east is due to the social organization there enforcing an outmoded class structure and economic dispersion, along with preventing the development of real industry. This social organization is one that is directly supported by Islam. However, the reforming efforts in Islam in the past thirty years have generally come in the direction of--instead of applying new ideas to reform this system--reapply the old ones better. This is the principle cause of the growth of Islamism. Also, the old social structure can more effectively use extremists of its own system in terms of a safety valve than it can, for instance, democratic or socialist revolutionaries. They are not diametrically opposed; they are just disagreeing on issues of doctrine.

Really what happened in the Islamic (Arabic and Iran more precisely) world was that they had a chance to modernize and they did--but they chose socialism, the Nasserist and Pan-Arabist movements in the Arab world. In Iran, the modernization was under an absolutist monarch. There was never any democracy.

A curious alternate history--and one which seems not entirely implausible--might be where the USA took a harder line with the former colonial powers of Britain and France and supported emerging governments in the Arab world and, for that matter, in Southeast Asia. This could have easily caused most of the Arab world to end up as emerging capitalist democracies as much of Asia is now, with Israel--which was historically founded on Socialist principles--as the regional Soviet client state.

Unfortunately however we lost this chance due to the need to cement the ties with our NATO alliance; we long had to support their remaining colonial aspirations (Britain, for instance, maintained an "informal Empire" in the Arab world until the 70s)--and by the time Eisenhower was willing to break with that policy at least in regard to the Suez Crisis, the Arab world was already tilting towards Moscow.

We can certainly see in Turkey that the development of the forms of democratic government, if imperfect, are entirely possible for the Islamic world and the middle east in general. The Turks, faced with the total partition and occupation of their State, looked under Mustapha Kemal Atatürk to the West--they imitated western forms and they adopted our practices, and in doing so they were able to gain the momentum to expel the Imperialist powers from Turkey and create the modern Turkish Republic.

Sadly the rest of the Islamic world has not followed this example: Though in fairness it is not the fault of many Islamic States. These countries did indeed try to adopt western forms and values for success in the modern world--they just adopted socialist ones instead of capitalist ones, which as was demonstrated in the collapse of the WARPAC and Russia, were ultimately doomed to fail. So the Islamic world was left with a creaking Socialist infrastructure--or in the outright grip of absolutist monarchy--when the age of the Islamists came, promising the fundamentalist reforms that would provide prosperity where the West apparently had not.

The problem now is that this movement has not yet been discredited as appears to offer a solution to the problems of the Islamic world in the eyes of the desperate masses. Thus it can only grow, if something does not halt it. That something must be some sort of act to discredit it; something which shows that only an imitation of the capitalist and western model can actually provide the Islamic world with the power and status it desires--and is also the only way to provide the economic prosperity necessary to provide hope to those desperate masses that fuel the current movement.

Perhaps what is indeed necessary is for someone to view in anger the western armies in Baghdad--or even in Riyadh--as Atatürk once saw those occupying British troops in Istanbul and was overcome with a hatred for them; but also realized that only emulation of the energetic system that had put them there, could drive them back out--and it was that strength that did, an army of national liberation that broke the Greeks at the Sakarya.

My general advice for those living in Islamic countries is that if you desire your nations to be strong and prosperous that the reforms of Atatürk should be followed. The west is indeed an insidious thing that is going everywhere--so you must choose if you want to meet it on your own terms or not.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-10-24 10:30pm

Darth Wong wrote: http://www.freeanwar.com/news/transcripts.html

Once again, how does this differentiate him from half the population of the southern United States?[/quote]

Except that he's been Prime Minister of one of the most populous states
in the world for 22 years, rather than someone living in a DoubleWide.

AniThyng · Post by **AniThyng** » 2003-10-25 12:43am

Except that he's been Prime Minister of one of the most populous states
in the world for 22 years, rather than someone living in a DoubleWide.

i think you have malaysia confused for Indonesia. population of Malaysia is a mere 23 million, [a figure i grabbed of the CIA world factbook. convenient little thing, that.

] versus 200 mil for indonesia. Indonesia is currently recovering from the excesses of the corrupt suharto era with IMF assistance and is trying as much as possible to rein in extremist elements and keep the country from disintegrating. at the very least indonesia herself is not a islamic theocracy for now. just a somewhat unstable democracy with a powerfully political military.

to adress dr. M's homophobia and sexual conservitism. remember that he is 74 years old, and also religious. this sort of attitude is not at all uncommon amoung people of his generation. considering that speech was to a convention of his political party, it's probably exactly what the assembly of old people and pious young firebrands who think a general assembly is more fun then playing snooker want to hear.

really i thinks its a stuoid thing to say, but give it time. young urban people generally do not hold such attitudes, although some like evilcat will instinctively rail and say homosexuality is sick and wrong, this is not an uncommon view in the west [well, america] either.

the problem is that sometimes you all expect a level of social enlightenment in asia in a timeframe that is not at all reasonable. remember that while 50 years ago America was the world's most advanced and economicaly powerful nation, malaysia was still a colonial posession. alot of the resentment against foreign interference stems from that.

i mean, your country has never had to deal with being told what to do since the 1800's. imagine what you rethoric Bush would say if america was being dictated what to do by a muslim bloc and then you might understand his position.

extremist would be the opposition party chairman, who is a muslim fundlementalist. and even then he is looking less extremist next to arab muslim grassroots leaders. opinions vary. alot of what is being said is just rethoric.

i grant you laws against homosexuality exist and are used, but considering Texas only recently officially repealed her anti-sodomy law, i think the current situation is still tolerable. when I am 40 and the situation is still the same then we have a problem, but for now, don't expect sudden social change amoung the previous generation. this is true across asia.

re: anuar case. bloody cock-up, that. opinions vary. my father, who is very much a engineer and liberal man, insisted to me that he was a traitor who was going to sell malaysia's soul to america. some people believe he was imprisioned because he was trying to unseat mahathir and overplayed his hand. and some just seize on the sodomy thing and say that he is immora;=l and unfit to govern.

it's a pity most of his supporters decided that rioting and burnign cars was a more effective way of doing it then political action.

i'm not at all proud of what happened there, but he did get a proper trial, which is a damn slight better then being made to vanish. his wife still leads a political party dedicated to freeing him and unseating the current administration.

but she has to make bedfellows with the muslim fundie party.

with the recovery from the asian financial crisis, i'm afraid the voting public does not care anymore.

kojikun · Post by **kojikun** » 2003-10-25 12:55am

I think the best idea to combat religious extremism anywhere, not just in the middle east, is to promote proper education. Like it was said, these Islamic fundementalist organizations appeal most to poor, uneducated boys and girls who feel hopeless and lost, without any real future. They need to be given some hope that they will not grow up poor, living in horrible conditions. It's proven time and again that better education leads to less religious extremism, and also less crime (which would benefit the Middle East as well, considering the shoddiness of the regions police forces). If the United States actively promoted, and possibly even assisted, Middle Eastern governments with their education systems, possibly by funding them, or providing cequipment and books, then we will surely see a major drop in Islamically based terrorism.