When do we institute the death penalty for parental neglect?

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Stormbringer
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Post by Stormbringer »

It's a glowing quote out of a person who has obviously never even laid eyes on the kids. You can't smell the bullshit?
That was one case workers report out of thirty eight, and for that matter three words out if it (for all we know it could have been: "The kids we saw we were thriving and happy"). Hardly grounds to fire nine people.
Read what I wrote. Why should it take more than 5 minutes to figure out that a parent won't let you see the kid, and why should you go and fill out a fraudulent report which gives them glowing marks for a "thriving" kid that you've never even laid eyes on?
We have three words from one report of one casworker. That doesn't mean all nine were that way.

The problems is that unless a case worker can find proof positive that abuse is taking place the organization won't take action. The caseworkers might well have not be allowed to follow up even if they were suspicious. It wouldn't be unusual for the higher ups to take the report on the healthy kids and call it go enough.

There have been enough cases where individual case workers were scapegoated for institutional failings.
Your entire argument boils down to "it's a tough job, so it's OK to bullshit on your reports".
No, it's not okay to lie. But then again there's three words of uknown context that supposedly establish all nine lied.

I'm suspicious that this is indeed a case where the case workers were scapegoated for institutional failings.
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Post by kojikun »

I suggest that we starve the parents to death.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Stormbringer wrote:That was one case workers report out of thirty eight, and for that matter three words out if it (for all we know it could have been: "The kids we saw we were thriving and happy"). Hardly grounds to fire nine people.
Oh, so now you're assuming that the quote was taken completely out of context in order to misrepresent the contents of the report, since the news article said specifically that the caseworker reported that the kids in question were doing well?

I don't know why you have such an obvious hard-on to defend these ass-clowns.
<snip more defensive excuses>

I'm suspicious that this is indeed a case where the case workers were scapegoated for institutional failings.
Yes, even though you haven't a shred of evidence for your alternate explanation and you have been forced to assume that the contents of their reports were misrepresented by the news article.
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Stormbringer
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Post by Stormbringer »

Oh, so now you're assuming that the quote was taken completely out of context in order to misrepresent the contents of the report, since the news article said specifically that the caseworker reported that the kids in question were doing well?
I'm saying three words doesn't mean much when it comes to firing nine people. Especially since the reports are confidential (at least in Michigan) and the whole is what they Child Welfare chose to release.
Yes, even though you haven't a shred of evidence for your alternate explanation and you have been forced to assume that the contents of their reports were misrepresented by the news article.
I'm saying that the Department itself might well be misrepresenting the grounds for their firing. There have been a number of cases where caseworkers have been scapegoated in cases like this. It's become a fairly normal MO unfortunately.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Stormbringer wrote:I'm saying that the Department itself might well be misrepresenting the grounds for their firing. There have been a number of cases where caseworkers have been scapegoated in cases like this. It's become a fairly normal MO unfortunately.
Oh right, and the caseworker visited 38 times in 4 years and never had any conceivable cause for concern after not being allowed to see the children once? As I said, you obviously have a hard-on for defending these ass-clowns; now you are starting to fling cover-up stories around.
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"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
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Stormbringer
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Post by Stormbringer »

Darth Wong wrote:Oh right, and the caseworker visited 38 times in 4 years and never had any conceivable cause for concern after not being allowed to see the children once? As I said, you obviously have a hard-on for defending these ass-clowns; now you are starting to fling cover-up stories around.
We don't know if that case worker ever raised concerns later or not since all we have is three words from an unspecified report. That still leaves eight other people about which we know nothing. It's suspicious.

Given that there have been coverups in cases like that I'm suspicious of such mass firings. Often times flags were raised but they were ignored by the system. It's an established pattern to scape goat the case workers.
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Post by Solauren »

Even more info.

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Cash Incentives for Adoptions Seen as Risk to Some Children
Wed Oct 29, 8:56 AM ET
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By LESLIE KAUFMAN The New York Times

In December 1995, Raymond and Vanessa Jackson, who had already adopted a young girl, formally adopted another child Bruce, a foster child then age 11. Over the next 12 months, the parents adopted two more boys from the state, and in 1997 they scooped up a fourth. Yet another girl was made legally theirs in 2000.

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And then, even as prosecutors say the four adopted boys in the family's New Jersey home were being starved on a diet of peanut butter and plaster wallboard, the Jacksons were being evaluated by state officials for the adoption of a seventh child, a 10-year-old girl.

The criminal inquiry into whether the Jacksons willfully harmed their four adopted boys will play out over the coming weeks, even months. But their case, even in its broad outlines, opens a window on a swiftly changing and some say increasingly risky corner of the adoption world.

States across the country, often in response to cash incentives offered by the federal government, have been under intense pressure in recent years to move children through their foster care systems and into permanent homes. Indeed, the number of annual adoptions nationally almost doubled from 1995 to 2001, and New Jersey adoptions more than doubled in an even shorter time, to 1,364 in 2002 from 621 in 1998.

But the effort to increase adoptions of the largely poor and minority children in the states' care has not been met with any surge of ideal families waiting to take them in. Instead, the already thin ranks of foster parents are being pushed to take up the slack, with states using federal money to subsidize the costs of formally adopting the children. The payments to parents willing to adopt can amount to hundreds of dollars a month per child. The Jacksons, with six adopted children and one foster child, received more than $30,000 in government payments last year.

The adoption of needy children is in many cases a good thing, and often the foster families they wind up with as adopted children are those they have lived with for years. But some state officials and child welfare experts say they worry that the current push is, in essence, transforming adoption into an extended form of foster care and a possible peril to children.

Once children are formally adopted, for instance, the state is no longer entitled to closely monitor their well-being. And having extended money to the foster parents willing to formally adopt a greater amount is paid to the families who adopt medically fragile or psychologically troubled children the risk exists that families take on more than they can handle, sometimes just for the additional money.

"Have we gone too far too fast?" asks Gary Stangler, executive director of Jim Casey Youth Opportunities Initiative, a private foundation in St. Louis focusing on getting children out of foster care. "I worry that with all the applause going to the increasing numbers of adoptions, that we are possibly putting these young people into families not equipped or prepared to handle them."

Experts are quick to caution that the case of the Jacksons of New Jersey may prove to be distinctly aberrant, and data concerning abuse or other problems experienced by children who have been adopted in recent years is still developing.

But it is clear that children in the state's care are now being adopted at a faster pace, an outcome many advocates for children have desired for years. The time it takes for a foster child to be adopted shrank by five months nationwide from 1998 to 2001.

But increasing the rate of adoptions may also reduce the time the state has to scrutinize the families and find the most suitable home, experts warn. Richard Wexler, the director of the National Coalition for Child Protection Reform, says he was concerned that the new law "would create a huge incentive for quick and dirty slipshod placements."

Of course, even long-term reviews can miss serious problems. The Jacksons, for example, completed their many adoptions over a decade, and investigators are still checking to see how they could have missed signs that the boys were being starved.

Another concern is that because the federal government does not limit the number of children either foster families or adopting families can have, states will start cramming them wherever they can.

Multiple child adoptions are a challenge under the best of circumstances, but many states are also allowing families to adopt many children with specialized needs with sometimes disastrous consequences.

Edith and Brian Beebe of Houston, for example, were allowed to adopt six severely handicapped children. Despite many complaints of abuse and rat-infested conditions in their home, the state acted to remove the children only after the couple beat one to death in 2000. In an internal review the state agency found it had not violated any of its own procedures in approving the adoptions.

Since 1980, the federal government, which had long been subsidizing foster homes, began to also provide financial support to families even after they had adopted children. The aim was to eliminate any financial disincentive to formally adopting a child.

But extending financial support to adoptive parents was not enough, and so there were very good reasons for the late 1990's changes in adoption practices that are causing many of the concerns today. Foster care populations in the cities were bloated, in part as a result of the crack epidemic of the 1980's. Children were spending years in care, some bouncing from placement to placement and others waiting in willing homes that could not get the paperwork completed and cleared for an adoption.



As part of the broad social policy efforts conducted by former President Bill Clinton (news - web sites), the government stepped in to encourage change. Congress adopted legislation in 1997 offering states up to $6,000 for every adoption out of the foster care system they could accomplish in excess of the number they completed the year before.

"Thousands of children across the nation and in New York were spending years in foster care," said William C. Bell, commissioner of New York City's Administration for Children's Services. Numerous studies showed such stays in foster care crushed self-esteem and created children who had trouble forming bonds with adults and peers.

"The impulse behind the law was to do something better for children and to demand a better result from the system," said Mr. Bell.

But whatever the motivation, state child welfare officials handling adoptions are increasingly finding themselves face to face with a thorny reality: lots of new children ready for adoption and the same old, very limited pool of foster parents willing to take them in.

Doubtless many of those foster parents are qualified and caring. But as a group they certainly have their flaws, particularly in New Jersey, which has what its own officials admit is a scandalous history of poor screening and licensing of such foster homes.

Case records of children in foster care in 2001, released as a result of a lawsuit against the state's foster care system, found that in some parts of New Jersey as many as one in five children in foster care had been abused.

More chilling, the case files also showed that, among foster homes identified as good prospective adoptive homes, 7 percent had confirmed findings of abuse or neglect in New Jersey in 2001 12 times the rates the federal government has set as acceptable.

Regulators in Washington, many of whom say the 1997 federal changes were largely good, are nevertheless beginning to press for ways to detect potentially troubled adoptive homes.

"There ought to be some method for a state agency to determine how these kids are doing post-adoption," said Wade F. Horn, assistant secretary for children and families at the Health and Human Services (news - web sites) Department in Washington.

"Most kids in foster care are there because they have had something terrible happen in their background. That would suggest a lot of these kids are going to have issues, and we shouldn't be surprised that when these kids are adopted problems emerge."

Let me sum up my response to 'cash to adopt' etc in one simple sentence

"YA THINK?"

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Post by Nathan F »

19 and only being 4 feet tall, weighing 45 pounds? How the heck...

I'm 19 and I'm 6 feet, and about 190 lbs. This is horrible! Those so-called parents need to have the same treatment done to them. :x
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Post by The Yosemite Bear »

I don't know which CPS incident annoy's me more, this or my friend "Jay" whose stepdaughter is a Sociopath. Her father hates her mother, and gives her presents to bring up all kinds of stories. This girl accuses any male of rape, sometimes even when they are actually out of the state when these attacks are supposed to occur. Despite the rulings against her testimony, biological, physical exames (she's still virgo-intacto, no tearing of the hemmodial tissue either), and other evidence, or the fact that she is being monitarily rewarded by her biological father, and loves to show off these gifts in front of EVERYONE, CPS still takes her veiw over that of most anyone elses. The fact that this pre-teen has threatened to accuse me of rape is not withstanding in my assessment that she's borderline pathological.)
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Post by The Kernel »

...Okay, I think I've got this figured out now. Under no circumstances should these parents be either jailed, nor executed. Jail is far too good for them and an execution is simply a quick death. People come down on child molesters but what these parents did was FAR worse. Yet in the case of child molestation it is always lock them up and throw away the key. Here it is ten years in prison tops. This is utter bullshit.

When a child is molested, it is a destructive act in their lives certainly and will probably scar them for life. However, there is probably no physical trauma (molestations are usually "consensual") so the child will recover. These children weren't just scared mentally, they've been scared physically, probably for life. This was the equivalent of torcher and hell simply doesn't have anything that would even remotely suit these people.

Every single one of them deserves nothing less then slow and excruciatingly painful torcher to last until every part of their body gives up and dies. No actually, I've thought of something better. Let's get a doctor to open these clowns up and sever every voluntary nerve fiber in their bodies causing total paralysis. Then systimatically disable all of their senses (sight, hearing, smell, taste, everything) to go along with the full body paralysis. Then hook them up to a machine and keep them alive as long as possible. THAT would be fitting considering their crime: a lifetime of eternal darkness without even death to claim them. THAT is precisely what these people deserve.

I can't fathom the deprevity that could create such human beings. When I was in high school and I saw the Columbine shootings on TV, at least that was something I could understand. Two kids, tormented throughout their lives, fighting back. I didn't approve in the slightest, but I understood their motivations. This type of behavior I can't even begin to understand. And why did they do it? For a paltry $35,000 a year. These people destroyed innocent life for money. There is no greater sin.

Those of you that insist on defending these cretins should try to remember what it must have been like for these kids being locked in the room, starving to death for YEARS. Fuck, I need to go douse myself in turpantine to get this memory clear of me.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Latest news: the parents have been bailed out by their friends and their church pastor. Probably spouting a lot of religious nonsense about "forgiveness" and "understanding".

Fuck 'em all, goddammit. When a kid is 19 years old, 4 feet tall, 45 pounds, and has been eating insulation in a desperate attempt to find food, all of the excuses in the world don't count for shit as far as I'm concerned. Fuck the pastor too.
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"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
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Post by Dark Hellion »

This still supports my idea of a new prison system. The same as our current one, with one more recess a day when all the guards turn around for 1 minute, and everyone is forced to wear a nametag that describes in vivid detail what crime they committed.
"Hi, I'm John, and I nearly starved my children to death" would probably get you a severe beating or a shank in the throat.
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Post by Solauren »

I support using them for medical testing. I mean, why waste perfectly useful mice?
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Post by The Yosemite Bear »

Because we need to kill the white rats before they start world domination
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Post by neoolong »

Dark Hellion wrote:This still supports my idea of a new prison system. The same as our current one, with one more recess a day when all the guards turn around for 1 minute, and everyone is forced to wear a nametag that describes in vivid detail what crime they committed.
"Hi, I'm John, and I nearly starved my children to death" would probably get you a severe beating or a shank in the throat.
I hear that it usually gets out, and the regular prisoners don't like people that pick on children.
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