Hamas founder killed in Israeli airstrike

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2004-03-22 12:04pm

Tribun wrote:I will say it simply:
It was crime, nothing else. Pure murder.

Israel is one of the state I least like, and this again proves why.
And now you can come out and insult me for that, only because I#m German and had the guts to ay that.

By the way, I find it disgusting, how many here even feel joy about the actions of a clearly racist and militarist state.

If Osama bin Laden was killed by Israel and we expressed our joy at having rid the world of his scourge, would you still say that we were disgusting? Sure, Israel has done their share of wrongs, but that has nothing to do with the fact that this guy was a terrorist who targetted innocents, plain and simple.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-03-22 12:12pm

Nathan F wrote:
Tribun wrote:I will say it simply:
It was crime, nothing else. Pure murder.

Israel is one of the state I least like, and this again proves why.
And now you can come out and insult me for that, only because I#m German and had the guts to ay that.

By the way, I find it disgusting, how many here even feel joy about the actions of a clearly racist and militarist state.
If Osama bin Laden was killed by Israel and we expressed our joy at having rid the world of his scourge, would you still say that we were disgusting?

If he was blown up in an orphanage, then "joy" would be a rather callous emotion, yes.

Sure, Israel has done their share of wrongs, but that has nothing to do with the fact that this guy was a terrorist who targetted innocents, plain and simple.

What is the functional difference between "targeting innocents" and "blowing them up because you don't give a fuck about collateral damage", particularly when the latter occurs in greater quantity than the former?

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2004-03-22 12:58pm

I'm happy yes, but I realize now I will have to pass alot more inspections everywhere I go.

Screw morality, the fucker should die anyway.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-03-22 01:01pm

Ace Pace wrote:Screw morality, the fucker should die anyway.

Interestingly enough, that's exactly the mentality that perpetuates the quagmire. Oh well, it's your problem, not mine. Enjoy the terrorism.

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2004-03-22 01:04pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Ace Pace wrote:Screw morality, the fucker should die anyway.
Interestingly enough, that's exactly the mentality that perpetuates the quagmire. Oh well, it's your problem, not mine. Enjoy the terrorism.

You think I enjoy it? I don't love the way we killed him, but he needed to die.

Result as I see it, is a little shakeup in the Hamas, a shitload of terror attacks, and way too much trouble for me.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-03-22 01:08pm

Ace Pace wrote:You think I enjoy it?

You hold the attitude that perpetuates it on both sides (in case you hadn't figured it out, "to hell with morality, the fuckers need to pay" is pretty much the same mindset the terrorists have). Therefore, you're part of the problem. As I said, enjoy the terrorism.

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2004-03-22 01:09pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Ace Pace wrote:You think I enjoy it?
You hold the attitude that perpetuates it on both sides (in case you hadn't figured it out, "to hell with morality, the fuckers need to pay" is pretty much the same mindset the terrorists have). Therefore, you're part of the problem. As I said, enjoy the terrorism.

Being objective about the problem is not something I can do.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-03-22 01:17pm

Ace Pace wrote:Being objective about the problem is not something I can do.

Neither can they. As I said, I hope you enjoy each others' hatred, because it ain't going away with attitudes like that.

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2004-03-22 01:21pm

Darth Wong wrote:
Ace Pace wrote:Being objective about the problem is not something I can do.
Neither can they. As I said, I hope you enjoy each others' hatred, because it ain't going away with attitudes like that.

Perhaps I misstated, I don't hate them, I just hate that Shiek.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2004-03-22 01:22pm

Eeew, listening to the news. The only recognisable piece they found of the Shiek was his head. Blah.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-03-22 01:27pm

Ace Pace wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
Ace Pace wrote:Being objective about the problem is not something I can do.
Neither can they. As I said, I hope you enjoy each others' hatred, because it ain't going away with attitudes like that.
Perhaps I misstated, I don't hate them, I just hate that Shiek.

If you don't hate them, then why do you say "screw the morality" of choosing to kill him in such a manner that you will inevitably wipe out numerous innocent bystanders?

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-03-22 01:38pm

Ace Pace wrote:I'm happy yes, but I realize now I will have to pass alot more inspections everywhere I go.

Screw morality, the fucker should die anyway.

You're an Israeli? Morality doesn't matter.

Well I suppose there's no moral difference between me drinking this cup of coffee and killing six million Jews.

No morality and all that.

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2004-03-22 01:48pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Ace Pace wrote:I'm happy yes, but I realize now I will have to pass alot more inspections everywhere I go.

Screw morality, the fucker should die anyway.
You're an Israeli? Morality doesn't matter.

Well I suppose there's no moral difference between me drinking this cup of coffee and killing six million Jews.

No morality and all that.

I see I have misstated myself, I take that comment back.

What I meant to say, is that he needed to die, and while the killing of bystanders is sad, he did kill way too many people.

And that sounded like flame bait.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2004-03-22 01:52pm

There are places in the United States where "He needed killin'" is still a valid defense.

I think that's all that needs to be said about the various responses to this event.

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2004-03-22 01:54pm

Iceberg wrote:There are places in the United States where "He needed killin'" is still a valid defense.

I think that's all that needs to be said about the various responses to this event.

Really?

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2004-03-22 01:58pm

Ace Pace wrote:
Iceberg wrote:There are places in the United States where "He needed killin'" is still a valid defense.

I think that's all that needs to be said about the various responses to this event.
Really?

Not literally - no state code recognizes "He needed to die" as a legal defense - but there remain areas where the people are sufficiently sympathetic to vigilante justice that it effectively remains valid.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-03-22 01:59pm

Ace Pace wrote: I see I have misstated myself, I take that comment back.

What I meant to say, is that he needed to die, and while the killing of bystanders is sad, he did kill way too many people.

And that sounded like flame bait.

I don't want to get to deep in this issue with you (with the taboo against these sorts of debates and all), but a thought occurs. If you are truly at war with these people as the Israeli government has said, aren't the actions of Hammas that of a foreign army rather than a terrorist organization? I don't agree with this statement, but you can't have it both ways: either this is a war or it isn't.

If it is a war, then Hammas' actions fall under that of a military fighting back against invasion. If Israel is NOT at war, then these collateral damages to civilian targets are completely unjustified. Can you imagine such a thing occuring in the United States or virtually any other first world country? Do you know the backlash that occured when police manhandled a drug dealer in LA? Mass riots. If the US military went and bulldozed a black neighborhood looking for domestic terrorists, there would be outright rebellion.

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2004-03-22 02:05pm

The Kernel wrote:
I don't want to get to deep in this issue with you (with the taboo against these sorts of debates and all), but a thought occurs. If you are truly at war with these people as the Israeli government has said, aren't the actions of Hammas that of a foreign army rather than a terrorist organization? I don't agree with this statement, but you can't have it both ways: either this is a war or it isn't. e would be outright rebellion.

I don't know about the goverment, but people here are finnaly realizing that retaliation dosn't work, and from this side, finnaly looking for peace.

Of course, international press can't show people actully showing reason

they show what sells...

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2004-03-22 02:13pm

Ace Pace wrote:I see I have misstated myself, I take that comment back.

What I meant to say, is that he needed to die, and while the killing of bystanders is sad, he did kill way too many people.

And that sounded like flame bait.

Well at least you recanted. I've had Jews stand fast on that, and well...the only available responses are that morality works for Jews but not for Palestinians, revealing them as racists, or that the Holocaust was fine.

Some people do not have cerebrums.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-03-22 02:13pm

Ace Pace wrote: I don't know about the goverment, but people here are finnaly realizing that retaliation dosn't work, and from this side, finnaly looking for peace.

Of course, international press can't show people actully showing reason they show what sells...

I have no doubt that a large percentage, maybe even the majority, of Israelis desire peace. However, that doesn't mean that those in power share those views; I'm sure you are aware that a similar situation exists in the United States with regard to several issues (not the least of which being Bush's foreign policy) but as long as Bush is in the White House and Congress is controlled by the Republicans, his voice is the only one that matters.

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2004-03-22 02:17pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Well at least you recanted. I've had Jews stand fast on that, and well...the only available responses are that morality works for Jews but not for Palestinians, revealing them as racists, or that the Holocaust was fine.

Some people do not have cerebrums.

Such as Ariel Sharon (thank you fuckwit for ruining the last of our reputation)

To the Kernal: I fear the right wingers here are discovering the wonderful process called fixing votes. In 4 years, 3 elections and for SOME reason, people hate him, and he manages to win

Looking back ^ Sorry for a little vent.

Stofsk · Post by **Stofsk** » 2004-03-22 02:18pm

Ace Pace wrote:I don't know about the goverment, but people here are finnaly realizing that retaliation dosn't work, and from this side, finnaly looking for peace.

Of course, international press can't show people actully showing reason they show what sells...

That's certainly true of a 60 mins report I saw once about this issue. Essentially they took a bunch Jewish kids and Palestinian kids and introduced them to each other, and they were allowed to play and all that. Then they went back home to their parents and never saw each other again (this was when they were children, before they were teenagers). Suffice to say when they grew up you could see the "poisoning of the well" effect taking place. There were I recall two Jewish kids (they were brothers) who would have liked to meet up with the Palestinian kids again; however they (as in the tv show) then show one of the Palestinian kids - a girl - who said to the effect "if she ever saw a Jew she'd spit on them or worse." (not a direct quote but the gist of it)

I don't know how accurate it was - after all this is 60 Mins we're talking about...

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2004-03-22 02:24pm

Stofsk wrote:*snip*

Reminds me of an experiment taking place currently, of having weekly meeting between west side jews and east side arabs in Jerusalem. From what i'm hearing from a friend who is in the program, it works quite well.

PrinceofLowLight · Post by **PrinceofLowLight** » 2004-03-22 04:45pm

Darth Wong wrote: What is the functional difference between "targeting innocents" and "blowing them up because you don't give a fuck about collateral damage", particularly when the latter occurs in greater quantity than the former?

Collateral damage means that the bad is a by-product of something good (dead terrorist). Targetting innocents has no upside. It's only a teensy weensy bit less evil, but there is a difference.

0.1 · Post by **0.1** » 2004-03-22 05:02pm

It's just politics as usual in the middle east. Some people like to talk their jaws off because that's essentially all they're capable of doing, i.e. Wong. Others like to put bullets in people's head, or in this case, a missile. Although one does wonder why they didn't just put up a couple of snipers somewhere and put a bullet through the guy's head. May be that's just a question of operational capabilities and setting up the logistics. But either way, this is essentially no different than what's happening before.

Terrorism is a the extension of politics by other means, so, the dumb bastard got poped, it took them long enough. It doesn't really change anything, the Israelis did it in retaliation for a suicide bombing. Hamas and so forth will eventually retaliate with more suicide bombing. None of it is any different from what happened before. And if they're happy killing one another, I see no reason why anyone should bother stopping them. Obviously, there are enough of these people on both sides there who are more than willing to kill one another with gusto. So, why interfere.

The basic point is until enough people on both sides are tired of killing each other, they won't stop, no amount of outside pressure will ever make a difference. I see the EU condemning, the Arabs whinning, etc, etc, etc... as if any of that will ever do any good. I say arm them all, and let them at each other. Those who manage to stay alive after all of this will be either the really smart ones or the really lucky ones. Either way, by the time they're done killing each other, they'll probably have more than enough space to share between them.