And ?So? Therefore?Stuart Mackey wrote: Only to the extent that they infringed on Christianity.
You alleged that the Catholic Church was pro Nazi, this clearly wasn't the case.
However saying that the Churches only concern was the Nazi's butting into the Churches affairs, they clearly condemn racism and also Anti Semitism.
March 1928 (10 years before the allies started getting worried about Hitler) the Holy Office publishes a discussion on events in Germany, they say
"Moved by Christian charity, the Holy See is obligated to protect the Jewish people against unjust vexations and, just as it reprobates all rancor and conflicts between peoples, it particularly condemns unreservedly hatred against the people once chosen by God, the hatred that commonly goes by the name of anti-Semitism."
That seems like a condemnation of anti-Semitism to me.
Let us look at what the future Pops newspaper was saying October 11 1930
"Belonging to the National Socialist Party of Hitler is irreconcilable with the Catholic Conscience."
Again that seems, to me at least, to hardly be a ringing endorsement of the Nazi party.
Lourdes 1935, the future Pope tells 325,000 Pilgrims
"the Church will never come to terms with Nazis as long as they persist in their racial philosophy."
Now again, I could be way off base here but that seems like a condemnation of the Nazi's racial philosophy.
They saved Jews from the Nazi's and they condemned those actions (they condemned the low level persecution of Jews by the Nazi's long before they began to march them into death camps), does that not qualify for some reason?I should have been more clear, they never activly went against the Nazi's anti-semetic policies
No one would think of preventing the youth of Germany from establishing a true ethinic community in a noble love of freedom and unshakablefidelity to the Fatherland
This is of course a nice cop out because to Germany at the time 'true ethinic community' Volksgemeinshaft' by definition would exclude Jews and according to the Nazi party "no Jew may be a member of the Volk"
I can't seem to find that, what paragraph is it in?
IT was very clear what was being driven at, true it was about not putting race (or the state) above the church but it also clearly condemns racism and directly mocks Hitler (even if it only refers to him as a certain leader).That encyclical was about the error of putting race above religion, the Christian religion, it was not, however, an outright condemnation of anti-semitism or the Nazi anti-Jewish policies, and not once does it mention the Nazi party. The encyclical also presents the old Testement in a manner that plays to existing opinions in Germany
Vatican Radio condemned the Nuremburg laws in 1936 when the future Pius XII was running it so it wouldn't have been the first condemnation.One also has to question Pious X11's sincerity when he supressed his predessesors draft encyclical 'Humani Generis Unitas', a document which would have, for the first time, start the Church to defending the Jews by explicatly condemning the Nazi's.
The fact that it doesn't mention the Nazi's is immaterial, it is blindly obvious who it is talking about and it would be dishonest to pretend the document isn't clear on that point.Yet it never once mentions the Nazis, and is focused on one specific narrow area. It is selective and narrow in its veiw.Its stated objection revolves around "systematic antagonism raised between nationaleducation and religious duty". The document is vague enough to be a nice peice of CYA.
The document is mainly about the Nazi's persecution of the Church however it does criticise racism and it does make it clear that treaty breaking and are making are not noble aims.
The Pope excommunicated Communists because Communism was incompatible with he church in that it was atheist and what everybody else to be that way too.Not every person in the official {as oppossed to lay people} Church was a Nazi Sympathiser but given the actions of the Nazis one wonders why the church or rather the Pope excommunicated all communists in 1949, regardless of if they were involved in the communist party or Stalins purges, but never excommunicated any Germans let alone Hitler. Why did the Church or the Pope not lift a finger to help the Jews of Italy being deported to the camps?
The Pope felt the same way about the Nazi's, as he said through his paper in 1930
"Belonging to the National Socialist Party of Hitler is irreconcilable with the Catholic Conscience."
The reason he didn't excommunicate the Nazis was because he feared for the church as he told the British Ambassador in 1933 after the concordant was signed
"I had to choose between an agreement and the virtual elimination of the Catholic Church in the Reich."
Between this point and the outbreak of war the future Pope sends over 60 messages to Hitler condemning his treatment of Jews.
I'm sure the Nazi's ordered the death/imprisonment of anybody listening to Vatican radio because they were unhappy with it's blend of easy listening and light choral as they preferred proto death metal.
As for the Pope not helping the Jews in Italy, let us ask those Jews
Dr. Raphael Cantoni, director of the Italian Jewish Assistance Committee, wrote: "The Church and the papacy have saved Jews as much and in as far as they could save Christians.... Six million of my co-religionists have been murdered by the Nazis, but there could have been many more victims, had it not been for the efficacious intervention of Pius XII."
Over 150 convents (in Italy) housed Jews during the War, as did the Popes summer palace and the Vatican itself, including an upsurge of the Vatican Guard which was stacked with Jews.
85% of the Jews in Rome escaped capture mainly due to Church aid.
The 178th Transport Company found two Vatican rule settlement camps in Italy containing 4000 Jews (including 500 that the Pope personally had released when an Italian patrol boat captured them as they sought refuge in Med ports) when they arrived in Italy.
So the Pope did do something to help the Jews, again if you wish to allege he didn't do enough then fair enough but saying he supported the Nazi's is a falsehood.
The Pope did help the Jewish people and did condemn what Hitler was up to, if you wish to argue he didn't do as much as he could then that is fair enough however there is large gulf between "Supported the Nazi's" (where you started off) and "Didn't care" (where you seemed to be hovering) and did help but could have done more (which this line of reasoning supports).So? the Pope practices CYA the same as anyone else but does not counter what he did not do befor or during the war.
What information did he need access to? In 1940 half a world away he knew the church opposed Hitler, if it wasn't a secret to Albert then I doubt it was a secret to anybody.I rather suspect that he did not have access to all information.
Ah but there’s the rub, not doing enough does not translate to support for the Nazi's, nations across the world were saying nothing during the 30s when the Vatican was criticising yet I do not allege all these other nations were Nazi supporters.aye, maybe he did, one must also look to what he did not do for a mesure of the man.
The Pope did raise a finger to stop the deportation and he did have many Jews hidden away, he was not willing to put the church at risk, criticise him for that if you want but do not distort the truth of the situation.So why was the head of the Polish church not excommunicated? despite his support of the Nazi's why were no Germans ever excommunicated despite the actions of their government and themselfves?
The Pope never raised a finger to stop the deportation of Jews from Italy,
etc etc..
But don't take my world for it, here is an excerpt taken from one of those Jews who Pious saved
While our brothers were hunted, imprisoned and threatened with death in almost every country in Europe, because they belonged to the Jewish people, Your Holiness has not only sent us large and generous gifts ... but also has shown Your lively fatherly interest in our physical, spiritual and moral well-being. In doing so Your Holiness has as the first and highest authority upon earth fearlessly raised his universally respected voice, in the face of our powerful enemies, in order to defend openly our rights to the dignity of man .... When we were threatened with deportation to Poland, in 1942, Your Holiness extended his fatherly hand to protect us, and stopped the transfer of the Jews interned in Italy, thereby saving us from almost certain death.
Now I would assume this guy actually knew what was happening around him so I'm going to take some convincing that he was tripping and imagining the entire thing.
That is damn weak and I should hope you know it.All the anti-semetic evidence going back to medeval times notwithstanding eh?
The US has a long history of institutionalised racism does that mean the US government or the US as a whole is pro KKK? Britain had a history of keeping Catholics and Jews out of the political system, does that mean Britain is anti-Semitic due to historical evidence, and was Britain pro Nazi?
So killing priests and shutting down Catholic over 200 publications wasn't a threat? banning the pope sending messages to the followers of his faith wasn't a threat? Punishing listening to Vatican radio with death also wasn't harming the church?Threat to the Church? rubbish! Whenever the national Catholic churches {or other denominations} spoke out they were never seriously targetted look at Scandinavia
Hermann Goering (who of course had no power at all over Nazi policy) said "Catholic believers carry away but one impression from attendance at divine services and that is that the Catholic Church rejects the institutions of the Nationalist State." Which proves two things, first that the Church was anti-0Nazi and second that Goering saw it as a threat to the state.
Let us see what Martin Bormann had to say of Catholicism "We Germans are the first to be appointed by destiny to break with Christianity. It will be an honor for us. A thousand ties link us to the Christian faith, they will be broken at a single blow. Our intention is not to raze the cathedrals to the ground, but to fill them with a new ideology and with proclamations of a new faith."
So no threat there then.....
The Popes first encyclical contains the following sentence "the new man who is renewed unto knowledge, according to the image of Him that created him. Where there is neither Gentile nor Jew."
Of course this wouldn't annoy the Nazi's, the French probably only had 70,000 copies of the encyclical dropped over Germany because they were out of bombs.
Stuart you seem to be jumping about with you argument and using evidence for mutually exclusive positions to support one another, the evidence is clear that the Church was not pro Nazi, I hope you can see that and withdraw that assertion. The evidence is also clear that the Pope himself (as well as many Priests/nun/monks and lay people) did help the Jews when they were being persecuted (and there is even more evidence available) so I hope you correct your stance no that also.
He you wish to assert that the Pope could have done more to help the Jews or stand up to the Nazi’s I won’t disagree but I do understand why he chose that caution and would hope that is obvious to you too.
