What if terrorists would do this in the US?

[Darth Wong]

John McClane can only kill Germans, unless these Muslim terrorists are German he's SOL.

Do not underestimate John McClane. The man is a master of improvisation, and took out a whole American renegade commando team in Die Hard 2.

Only directly killed one of them. The rest were killed when the plane exploded.

He killed a lot more than one of them. He took out several guys in the terminal, a bunch more at the abandoned church, and of course, the guy who got munched by the jet engine.

[Dennis Toy]

Darth Wong wrote:
aerius wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:
John McClane, where art thou?

John McClane can only kill Germans, unless these Muslim terrorists are German he's SOL.

Do not underestimate John McClane. The man is a master of improvisation, and took out a whole American renegade commando team in Die Hard 2.


Only directly killed one of them. The rest were killed when the plane exploded.

he did kill them all, he lit the fuel on the ground and like a missile it went up and blew the plane up.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Don't think the Army would have anything to do with it. The FBI/ATF would probably work in conjunction with local law enforcement to end the standoff. IMO, casualties would be unavoidable, but a lightning-strike assault from multiple directions in the dead of night (assault teams and cordon force using night vision devices) would probably serve to mimimize those casualties.

While FBI and ATF teams (as well as every SWAT team in a thousand miles) would be brought in, I think there would still be a place there for military special forces. Obviously you want every body you can get to help out in case there's an emergency situation inside, and the special forces teams have superb training for handling hostage situations, albeit on a smaller scale.

Than what's the HRT for?

You'd rather have 1st SFOD-DELTA or DEVGRU on it?

[Durandal]

What is this doing in OT?

[Durandal]

What if heavily-armed Muslim fighters took over an elementary school in the US, taking hundreds of kids hostage and wiring the place with mines and bombs?

For the sake of argument we'll say that they're demanding the release of the Camp Delta captives or something.

Watch Toy Soldiers.

[Master of Ossus]

Than what's the HRT for?

This may be the bias of the uninformed, but I don't think that the HRT is designed to handle something this size. They certainly have a role in assaulting the compound if necessary, and they have the training for it, but I don't think they have the manpower to deal with a situation involving 25+ assholes and literally hundreds of hostages.

You'd rather have 1st SFOD-DELTA or DEVGRU on it?

I would. They're trained specifically to deal with situations involving huge hostage counts. From what I know, they would probably be the best groups for such an action.

[Broomstick]

How would a band of heavily-armed Islamists even get into the US, much less evade detection for themselves and their weapons?

You are such a fucking tool

Same way anyone else gets into the US. The same way the fucking 9/11 hijackers got into the US. It's not that hard to enter. If your background is clean you enter through a normal port. If not, you sneak in. The US has how many thousand miles of border? We can't keep people from walking in on foot from Mexico, and that's the most heavily defended stretch. (Granted, quite a few people die taking that route, but presumably well-funded terrorists would be better prepared for the hike).

And they don't have to bring weapons with them - they can buy them here, just like anyone else. Legally if their past history allows, illegally if not. Or they can have some dupe buy them on their behalf.

Yes, it certainly could happen here. It could happen just about anywhere.

fgalkin, why don't you put down the fucking keyboard, crawl out of your basement, and discover reality some time?

Actually, isn't it pretty easy in the USA to buy yourself bulletproof vests, nightvision goggles, and other such equipment?

Yeah, reasonably so - it won't be the latest and greatest but arguably you don't need the very latest tech to pull something like this off. If I walked out my door right now I could probably have most of that by the end of the day if I wanted it. Hell, I could probably buy all that on the Internet and have it delivered to my home.

On the other hand, do a lot of that you will attract the attention of law enforcement.

If the hypothetical terrorists of this thread's scenario thinks of getting these things, wouldn't that contribute to making things tougher for whoever that ends up having to deal with them?

Yep

Also, how difficult would it be for civilians to get their hands on automatic weapons (edit: or weapons that could be modified to be automatic)?

My understanding is that you'd have to modify open-market weapons to make them full auto, but that's not hard once you have the parts.

Of course, there are undoubtedly illegal means of obtaining these weapons

Certainly.

One of the main problems with relying on background checks and screenings is that the Bad Guys don't play by the rules and do everything they can to circumvent the systems set up to keep things "secure".

If they poked their noses near a pawnshop or whatever, they could expect SWAT teams to show up at their front door the next day.

In my area, the legit gun dealers and pawnshops cooperate with the police and have helped take down some very bad characters. One benefit to some of the delays in the current system between purchase and delivery is that it has allowed some dealers time to alert the authorities to bad characters without arousing suspicions in the bad guy and also without releasing weapons to them.

Of course, all this is contingent upon being recognized as being from Chechenya or whatever... IIRC, Chechens could probably pass as Russian.

There are enough groups of law-abiding Chechens in the US that being Chechen in and of itself would not get you labeled "terrorist" automatically. Or they could just try to lose themselves in any number of Eastern European communities.

Now, if they're Arab, and travelling in large groups, that's another story...

Not in many major metropolitan areas. Someplace like Dearborn, Michigan, which has the largest concentration of Arabs in the US, just about any Arab could get lost in. Chicago has a huge mosque in the city, and numerous others in the suburbs. Arabs are all over around here, as are Eastern Europeans of all stripes. They are nothing unusual and a part of any large, public crowd. I interact with them at work, at the grocery store, in the parks... Around here, a group of Arabs might get scrutinized more thoroughly at the airport but out on most city streets they are unlikely to arouse any more suspicion than anyone else.

[Jade Falcon]

Who says the Muslims would necessarily be foreign nationals, you could have US Citizens who are converts.

[MKSheppard]

fgalkin, why don't you put down the fucking keyboard, crawl out of your basement, and discover reality some time?

Why don't you fucking replace that stupid as shit avatar and get a brain.
He said HEAVILY ARMED Islamists. Somehow, I doubt that AK-47s that
are full auto, along with hundreds of pounds of plastique can be brought
through customs, much less even be brought in this country.

They could get in here, but they'd be much less heavily armed than usual.

[aerius]

Why don't you fucking replace that stupid as shit avatar and get a brain.
He said HEAVILY ARMED Islamists. Somehow, I doubt that AK-47s that
are full auto, along with hundreds of pounds of plastique can be brought
through customs, much less even be brought in this country.

They could get in here, but they'd be much less heavily armed than usual.

As a Customs enforcement agent I can tell you that the borders leak like a sieve unless the terrorists are dumb enough to try and ship in their goods through the airport. Load a truck with Semtex & vegetables in Mexico or Canada and just drive it right across the border, chances are they'll get clean through. Or they can do what drug smugglers do, load up a speedboat with plastique & AK's then run it into a droppoint at night for pickup by vans & cars. Then there's the ports, with countless thousands of containers moving through every day it's not that hard for one to go missing. Drug cartels already use'em to smuggle in truckloads of cocaine, heroin, and god knows what else, not that hard to swap the drugs for weapons.

[MKSheppard]

Load a truck with Semtex & vegetables in Mexico or Canada and just drive it right across the border, chances are they'll get clean through.

"Chances' aren't good enough when planning one of these. You're taking
risks with operatives; there has to be a good enough chance of succeeding
that you'll do it.

Or they can do what drug smugglers do, load up a speedboat with plastique & AK's then run it into a droppoint at night for pickup by vans & cars.

To do that, you have to get the goods, ship them to south america or
Haiti, and from there on, get a speedboat big enough to do a trans-
caribbean voyage while eluding the US Navy's FFGs....

It takes time, time to get this all set up...that said, I'm not very optimistic
about the future.

[Broomstick]

fgalkin, why don't you put down the fucking keyboard, crawl out of your basement, and discover reality some time?

Why don't you fucking replace that stupid as shit avatar and get a brain.

This is the second time in a week fgalkin has farted stupid, ignorant shit out of keyboard that I'm aware of, and since I don't read even half the threads on this board I wouldn't be surprised if he does it more often than that.

Why don't I replace my "stupid as shit avatar"? Because I have a life and more interesting things to do than worry about some damn 100x100 pixel picture. I didn't put it there to impress you because frankly, I don't care if you're impressed or not.

He said HEAVILY ARMED Islamists. Somehow, I doubt that AK-47s that are full auto, along with hundreds of pounds of plastique can be brought through customs, much less even be brought in this country.

Guess you're full of shit, too. I know people in my area who have AK-47's, and I've even fired one down at one of the local ranges. No, they aren't full auto because none of the folks I hang with have any interest in modifying them, but pretty much everyone knows how it can be done.

You can legally buy explosives in this country if you are willing to go through the proper requirements - not at all uncommon for farmers in my neighborhood to do so when removing tree stumps and such. Or just mix fertilizer and diesel fuel, both of which are easily obtainable, as are other components for explosives. Fireworks, black powder, common chemicals... this is not particularly difficult to do.

Which is why the whole idea that terrorists have to bring weapons in from outside is so full of shit. You can buy or improvise them right here - just like Timothy McVeigh did for Oklahoma City.

And that's leaving out the half dozen ways I could come up with to sneak across the US border. Boats have been mentioned. Small planes could be used as well. Or just fucking backpack across along the Canadian border.

They could get in here, but they'd be much less heavily armed than usual.

You don't need to be "heavily armed" to kill people. The 9/11 guys walked onto US soil completely unarmed, used fucking boxcutters I can pick up at a dollar store, wrecked 16 acres of Manhattan, knocked a big ass hole in the wall of the Pentagon, and killed several thousand people.

Look, I'm sorry you armchair quarter backs are so obessed with who's got the bigger gun but in the real world you don't need a "heavy armament" to do a shitload of damage.

[MKSheppard]

This is the second time in a week fgalkin has farted stupid, ignorant shit out of keyboard that I'm aware of, and since I don't read even half the threads on this board I wouldn't be surprised if he does it more often than that.

Fgalkin is a a respected poster on this board, and you are........who? Excuse me, I never heard of you until you opened
your mouth and poured grade A garbage onto this thread.

Why don't I replace my "stupid as shit avatar"? Because I have a life and more interesting things to do than worry about some damn 100x100 pixel picture. I didn't put it there to impress you because frankly, I don't care if you're impressed or not.

It makes you look like a fucking retard that's what. End of story, 3D glasses boy.

Guess you're full of shit, too. I know people in my area who have AK-47's, and I've even fired one down at one of the local ranges. No, they aren't full auto because none of the folks I hang with have any interest in modifying them, but pretty much everyone knows how it can be done.

HAHAHAHHAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHHAHAH

Are you done making an ass of yourself? In order for anything to be sold in this country, the BATF must qualify them, and that means passing
them through a test to see how easy it is to modify them to full auto, and well, if it's easy, they don't get qualified for sales in the US of Ay.

And those aren't AK-47s your friends have. They're sporterized versions, not the real thing, which has something called "full auto". Christ,
next you're going to say we can buy M-16s since you saw people with AR-15s.

You can legally buy explosives in this country if you are willing to go through the proper requirements - not at all uncommon for farmers in my neighborhood to do so when removing tree stumps and such.

Somehow, I don't think Abdul Achmed is getting his hands on those; and those are low-order explosives. Very weak stuff.

Or just mix fertilizer and diesel fuel, both of which are easily obtainable, as are other components for explosives. Fireworks, black powder, common chemicals... this is not particularly difficult to do.

HAHAHAHHAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHHAHAH

Still making an ass out of yourself? Oh, whatever. ANFO is very low grade, totally worthless. It's only saving grace is it can
be easily made and can be mixed on site to meet the exact amount you need. Because in the mining industry, just dig
a bigger hole to pour more ANFO slurry in if you need a bigger bang. Kind of hard to truck that shit around.

And also, you know, it's kinda weird if Abdul demands that his local farm
and feed store give him several tons of fertilizer right now, despite him
not being a farmer, and having no past history with that store.

Which is why the whole idea that terrorists have to bring weapons in from outside is so full of shit. You can buy or improvise them right here - just like Timothy McVeigh did for Oklahoma City.

That one involved 55 gallon drums, dozens of them jammed into the back of a Ryder truck, and a total warhead weight of
probably 10,000+ pounds. Yes, Achmed is going to be able to move 10,000 pounds of ANFO up to a building without being
noticed.

And that's leaving out the half dozen ways I could come up with to sneak across the US border. Boats have been mentioned. Small planes could be used as well. Or just fucking backpack across along the Canadian border.

But to get to the US, you have to first get into Canada. And anything you need beyond basic firearms will have to arrive here, and that
vastly increases your chances of detection; once again our position between two oceans protects us again.

The 9/11 guys walked onto US soil completely unarmed, used fucking boxcutters I can pick up at a dollar store, wrecked 16 acres of Manhattan, knocked a big ass hole in the wall of the Pentagon, and killed several thousand people.

And used guys with tens of thousands of dollars worth of pilot training, and years of said training, rather than the rent-a-thugs with $1 boxcutters
that you wank off too.

Look, I'm sorry you armchair quarter backs are so obessed with who's got the bigger gun but in the real world you don't need a "heavy armament" to do a shitload of damage.

And I'm sorry that you were dropped on your head when you were a baby at the hospital, but that's the way it is. To do any real
damage, you are going to need something more sophisticated than low grade explosives.

[Broomstick]

Load a truck with Semtex & vegetables in Mexico or Canada and just drive it right across the border, chances are they'll get clean through.

"Chances' aren't good enough when planning one of these. You're taking
risks with operatives; there has to be a good enough chance of succeeding that you'll do it.

If it works for drug dealers it will work for gun runners. Smugglers of any kind realize they're going to lose a certain number of shipments, it's part of the cost of doing business.

Why do you think Al-Qaeda uses multiple teams? So if one is intercepted the rest of them can still continue the operation. These guys plan to kill their operatives, why the hell would they care if a couple get captured? They don't provide them with anything more than the minimum information to do their assigned role so if they are caught they don't blow the whole cover on the organization.

Or they can do what drug smugglers do, load up a speedboat with plastique & AK's then run it into a droppoint at night for pickup by vans & cars.

To do that, you have to get the goods, ship them to south america or
Haiti, and from there on, get a speedboat big enough to do a trans-
caribbean voyage while eluding the US Navy's FFGs....

Right. Just like drug runners. Who do a brisk and successful business. In fact, they probably hire the fucking drug smugglers to run their weapons for them.

You don't need a "speedboat", you just need to get a single boat past customs. That's it - fast or slow doesn't matter. Ditto for airplanes... in fact, it's easier to get a small, slower airplane past the radar and border patrols than a big fast one.

And just how big a boat do you think you need for a "trans-carribean voyage" anyhow? At least one man has crossed the Atlantic on a fucking windsurfing board. People float about the Carribean in rowboats, on rafts made out of fucking car tires. Last year a couple of Cubans modified a pickup truck and drove almost all the way to Florida.

You're making this out to be far, far more complicated than it actually has to be.

Let's review a few points for the slow learners:

- it's easy to sneak into the United States because we have an incredibly long border, most of which is unfenced and unpatrolled. You can sneak in via land, sea, or air. This is not disputable, because people have done and continue to do so.

- terrorists don't need to bring weapons with them. They can show up at the border unarmed and be let in. If they have no prior criminal history or black marks on their record it won't raise an eyebrow

- thanks to our wide diversity of populations in major urban areas anyone from anywhere in the world is able to find a neighborhood where he or she can blend into the crowd.

- weapons of various sorts can be legally obtained in the US

- if, for some reason, legal routes of obtaining weapons are not practical terrorists can use US citizens who are sympathizers with their cause to obtain weapons. Also the components of weapons are easily obtainable, and renting a location that can be secured against casual intrusion for use as a weapons factory is also easily done either directly or by proxy.

- you don't need a big gun to kill a lot of people.

If we haven't had that many attacks over the past few years it's NOT because our security systems are so good... it's because the actual numbers of people involved in this sort of crime is so very small.

[Broomstick]

This is the second time in a week fgalkin has farted stupid, ignorant shit out of keyboard that I'm aware of, and since I don't read even half the threads on this board I wouldn't be surprised if he does it more often than that.

Fgalkin is a a respected poster on this board, and you are........who? Excuse me, I never heard of you until you opened
your mouth and poured grade A garbage onto this thread.

I've been in plenty of threads you've been in - maybe if you read posts other than those of your friends and toadies you'd notice there are other people in the world.

And, to be frank, I don't give a rat's ass how "respected" you are - if you say something stupid I'm going to call you on it. I don't care who you are. Being "respected" is no guarantee of being correct.

Seriously, what the fuck can you do? Hell, I've got hobbies more scary, impressive, and dangerous than you.

Why don't I replace my "stupid as shit avatar"? Because I have a life and more interesting things to do than worry about some damn 100x100 pixel picture. I didn't put it there to impress you because frankly, I don't care if you're impressed or not.

It makes you look like a fucking retard that's what. End of story, 3D glasses boy.

Like I said - I don't give a fuck if you're impressed or not. I gave up changing me and my life around to please wankers such as yourself ages ago - probably while you were still in diapers, if you're of the average age of posters on this board.

Guess you're full of shit, too. I know people in my area who have AK-47's, and I've even fired one down at one of the local ranges. No, they aren't full auto because none of the folks I hang with have any interest in modifying them, but pretty much everyone knows how it can be done.

[snip]
In order for anything to be sold in this country, the BATF must qualify them, and that means passing them through a test to see how easy it is to modify them to full auto, and well, if it's easy, they don't get qualified for sales in the US of Ay.

My, it is so touching to see such faith in the government still exists.

No, they can't be made full auto in 30 seconds but you're a goddamned fool if you think it's impossible or even particularly difficult. Just takes time and money is all, and remarkably little of both. And, to the person being shot, it doesn't fucking matter if it's a modified "sporterized" version or a "real" military AK-47, they're still shot and most likely dead. You're quibbling over distinctions that in real life are irrelevant.

You can legally buy explosives in this country if you are willing to go through the proper requirements - not at all uncommon for farmers in my neighborhood to do so when removing tree stumps and such.

Somehow, I don't think Abdul Achmed is getting his hands on those; and those are low-order explosives. Very weak stuff.

Tell that to the people who used to work in the Alfred P. Murrah building. The ones that are still alive. Or the people from the Kenyan embassies.

You don't need the latest and the greatest to kill people. Low-tech and low-order explosives do the job quite nicely.

Still making an ass out of yourself? Oh, whatever. ANFO is very low grade, totally worthless.

Yeah, whatever - like I said, tell that to Oklahoma City, see how they feel about that "low grade" and "worthless" explosive.

And also, you know, it's kinda weird if Abdul demands that his local farm and feed store give him several tons of fertilizer right now, despite him not being a farmer, and having no past history with that store.

Not unlikely at all - there are Muslim farmers in my area, some with a considerable history of dealing with agricultural supply stores.

Or you could just steal it, I suppose. I mean, we're not talking about law-abiding people, are we?

Which is why the whole idea that terrorists have to bring weapons in from outside is so full of shit. You can buy or improvise them right here - just like Timothy McVeigh did for Oklahoma City.

That one involved 55 gallon drums, dozens of them jammed into the back of a Ryder truck, and a total warhead weight of
probably 10,000+ pounds. Yes, Achmed is going to be able to move 10,000 pounds of ANFO up to a building without being
noticed.

And why not? I mean, Tim McVeigh did just that, didn't he? You're saying it's unlikely, but it's already happened. Which is why both you and fgalkin are talking out of your asses on this. You're denying both history and reality.

And that's leaving out the half dozen ways I could come up with to sneak across the US border. Boats have been mentioned. Small planes could be used as well. Or just fucking backpack across along the Canadian border.

But to get to the US, you have to first get into Canada.

Not difficult - same problem. Thousands of miles of unpatrolled unfenced border.

Hell, I grew up 10 miles from the US/Canada border in a major urban area and when we were kids we made a fucking game of trying sneak across. If you don't hold yourself to roads it's not a huge obstacle. Sure, you can get caught... but thousands cross each year without getting caught. Again, you completely deny actual reality as it is taking place right now. We have even had a border agent post here about the borders "leaking like a sieve" but I guess you don't read his posts, either.

And anything you need beyond basic firearms will have to arrive here, and that vastly increases your chances of detection; once again our position between two oceans protects us again.

Oh, yeah, we were fucking well protected in September 2001, weren't we?

Again - you are denying actual factual reality

The 9/11 guys walked onto US soil completely unarmed, used fucking boxcutters I can pick up at a dollar store, wrecked 16 acres of Manhattan, knocked a big ass hole in the wall of the Pentagon, and killed several thousand people.

And used guys with tens of thousands of dollars worth of pilot training, and years of said training, rather than the rent-a-thugs with $1 boxcutters that you wank off too.

Uh, yeah - there are flight academies that, for $20-25k will train you in about six months to be a fully qualified commercial pilot, ready to apply for a job flying a jet. There is the detail that you have to keep up with the coursework, which might be difficult for someone who speaks English as a second language. Which might be why they didn't go that route.

Hell, in 2001 I had more training and fucking flight time than the 9/11 guys did - and my total training cost was under 10 grand (granted, I didn't buy simulator time on a full-motion 757 mock-up - now that's a little pricey)

Want a copy of the reference manuals on the 757/767 they had in their possession? I could have a copy at my door next day. Big pilot shop in Clearmont, Ohio sells 'em. Hell, I could go fly there myself in about two hours, I could have a copy by dinnertime.

This obstacle is trifling. It's not nearly the big obstacle you think it is. 700,000+ people in the US are licensed pilots. There are Arabs and Muslims among them - fortunately for us, all but a handful are good, decent people who just want to make a decent living.

To do any real damage, you are going to need something more sophisticated than low grade explosives.

Right... like picking up a couple box-cutters at the local store. That's real fucking sophisticated.

I dunno... maybe these delusions of all this being so fucking hard allows you to cling an illusion of being safe. It's NOT hard to kill people, it's frighteningly easy. There are so many ways to kill people.

Whether you have the balls to face it or not, executing a terrorist attack with mass casualties is not particularly difficult and well within the capability of the average human being if they were motivated to do such a thing. Fortunately, most of us aren't.

Reality is none of us ordinary schmoes are safe. None of us. Unless you're willing to live out in the woods far away from civilization, or you're someone like Dubya who has a bubble of protection maintained around him at all times by professional bodyguards at government expense, you are at risk of dying in a terrorist attack. Just suck it up, because that fact is not going to change for some time.

[MKSheppard]

I've been in plenty of threads you've been in - maybe if you read posts other than those of your friends and toadies you'd notice there are other

people in the world.

I can't seem to remember you. At all. You're completely forgettable.

So why should I give a fuck about you? You're just another zero post
counter making accusations about a well-respected member of this
board.

Hell, I've got hobbies more scary, impressive, and dangerous than you.

Hell, son, I've shit out logs that are scarier than you.

probably while you were still in diapers, if you're of the average age
of posters on this board.

I can see you never were potty trained, after all. Shame about that.

My, it is so touching to see such faith in the government still exists.

Son, if there's one branch of the government that doesn't fuck around,
it's the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobbaco, and Firearms.

No, they can't be made full auto in 30 seconds but you're a goddamned fool if you think it's impossible or even particularly difficult.

Yes, lets drill the fuck out of the reciever, the part that shall take the most
stress when the gun fires, especially on full auto! Yes! how conductive
for your personal safety!

You're quibbling over distinctions that in real life are irrelevant.

Actually. No, fucktard. In real life, the most kills are achieved in the first
few seconds of any action, when people are shocked and standing
around going WTF?

Tell that to the people who used to work in the Alfred P. Murrah building. The ones that are still alive. Or the people from the Kenyan

embassies.

You don't need the latest and the greatest to kill people. Low-tech and low-order explosives do the job quite nicely.

And require 10,000 pounds to get the effect that you can get
from 100 lbs of plastique. The more shit you must lug around,
the higher your detection chances go up. There's a reason
semtex became the terrorist explosive of choice in the 1980s
by Arab terrorists.

Not unlikely at all - there are Muslim farmers in my area, some with a considerable history of dealing with agricultural supply stores.

I didn't know that motor oil was a farmable commodity.

Or you could just steal it, I suppose. I mean, we're not talking about law-abiding people, are we?

Except that the theft of enough low grade explosives to do damage
will raise red-flags and get police agencies swarming around in
the area; not exactly what you want if you are a terrorist.

And why not? I mean, Tim McVeigh did just that, didn't he? You're saying it's unlikely, but it's already happened.

And now everyone knows that large trucks behaving erattically = terrorist.

If you want some real fun, try parking in front of any real target in a rental
truck. (WARNING: SHEPPARD IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR
THE RUINATION OF YOUR LIFE BY FEDERAL AGENCIES)

Not difficult - same problem. Thousands of miles of unpatrolled unfenced border.

And how are you going to get the explosives and materiel across? Oh,
I forgot, every terrorist in the world has a 1 kiloton 150 lb backpack
nuke he's carrying around.

Oh, yeah, we were fucking well protected in September 2001, weren't we?

Countermeasures have been put in place since 9/11. This is like someone
arguing that we should scrap our Navy entirely after Pearl Harbour, because we
failed to stop a complete out of the blue surprise attack.

And used guys with tens of thousands of dollars worth of pilot training, and years of said training, rather than the rent-a-thugs with $1

boxcutters that you wank off too.

Uh, yeah - there are flight academies that, for $20-25k will train you in about six months to be a fully qualified commercial pilot, ready to apply for a job

flying a jet. There is the detail that you have to keep up with the coursework, which might be difficult for someone who speaks English as a second

language. Which might be why they didn't go that route.

Except they did. And thanks for proving my point. That it costs "tens of thousands of dollars" to train a pilot.

Hell, in 2001 I had more training and fucking flight time than the 9/11 guys did - and my total training cost was under 10 grand (granted, I didn't

buy simulator time on a full-motion 757 mock-up - now that's a little pricey)

Again with the completely unsupported claims of personal experience. Hyperion, is that you?

Right... like picking up a couple box-cutters at the local store. That's real fucking sophisticated.

And spending tens of thousands of dollars and quite some time at a flight school so you don't end up nosediving
a jet into the ground after seizing control, and manage to fly them hundreds of miles to their targets.

Whether you have the balls to face it or not, executing a terrorist attack with mass casualties is not particularly difficult and well within the

capability of the average human being if they were motivated to do such a thing.

I was unaware that the average human being had access to an AGS-30 Palyma automatic grenade launcher.

[The Kernel]

I didn't want to get involved in this, but Shep is being an idiot (as usual) and needs some correction.

Son, if there's one branch of the government that doesn't fuck around,
it's the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobbaco, and Firearms.

What exactly are you suggesting with this empty platitude? That the border is inviolate?

Yes, lets drill the fuck out of the reciever, the part that shall take the most
stress when the gun fires, especially on full auto! Yes! how conductive
for your personal safety!

That's an interesting way of conceding the argument. Whether you like it or not an AK-47 that you buy the pieces for on eBay and manufactuer the lower reciever yourself would be perfectly adaquate for a terrorist operation. Sure, it isn't going to be military-grade quality or reliability, but it will be perfectly sufficient for this sort of operation and you know it you dishonest little shit.

And now everyone knows that large trucks behaving erattically = terrorist.

Aww, that's so CUTE! Yeah, I'm sure that the government has eyes everywhere looking for terrorist bomb trucks.

Let me clue you in on something, the best terror targets today aren't military or political targets, they are all civilian economic and industrial facilities as well as targets like the school used in the example. If you think that all of these places are under observation you are a fool.

If you want some real fun, try parking in front of any real target in a rental
truck. (WARNING: SHEPPARD IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR
THE RUINATION OF YOUR LIFE BY FEDERAL AGENCIES)

Real target? Please, the only buildings remotely protected are government and military buildings and you know it. Futhermore, "parking" wouldn't apply to a suicide bomber unless you think terror groups have run out of them.

And how are you going to get the explosives and materiel across? Oh,
I forgot, every terrorist in the world has a 1 kiloton 150 lb backpack
nuke he's carrying around.

Are you aware that high explosive can be fucking made? It requires a certain amount of precision (mostly in getting the temperatures controlled and taking care in handling the Nitroglycerin) but it is not a ruinous propostion for a particularly determined group.

Furthermore, consider that Semtex is readily purchaseable in places just South of the border. Are you aware how easy it is to smuggle something like that north if you know what you are doing and have the proper equipment? Do you know what the customs security is like on private aviation? I do (I've been through it several times) and I'm betting you don't.

Countermeasures have been put in place since 9/11. This is like someone
arguing that we should scrap our Navy entirely after Pearl Harbour, because we
failed to stop a complete out of the blue surprise attack.

Countermeasures that are not foolproof you idiot as you are claiming they are.

[Wicked Pilot]

So why should I give a fuck about (Broomstick)? You're just another zero post counter making accusations about a well-respected member of this board.

You shouldn't confuse quality of post with quantity.

Hell, son, I've shit out logs that are scarier than you.

Yes, I'm sure that there were scary moments in prison when Bubba was showing you where the wild goose goes. Unfortunatly, I don't think getting ass raped would qualify seeing how it was probably done involunteerly.

And require 10,000 pounds to get the effect that you can get
from 100 lbs of plastique. The more shit you must lug around,
the higher your detection chances go up. There's a reason
semtex became the terrorist explosive of choice in the 1980s
by Arab terrorists.

That's why McVeigh used a truck. Has that fact passed over your head?

Except that the theft of enough low grade explosives to do damage
will raise red-flags and get police agencies swarming around in
the area; not exactly what you want if you are a terrorist.

Someone down here in San Antonio stole two propane tanker trucks, and the police never caught them. They found the two trucks in Laredo long after they were abandoned. Do you have any idea how many immigration check points they had to cross to get them there? So no, it doesn't work that way.

And now everyone knows that large trucks behaving erattically = terrorist.

If you want some real fun, try parking in front of any real target in a rental
truck.

So the terrorist set the bomb on a one minute fuse. How long do you think it will take to notice the truck, call the authorities, cordon off the area, evacuate the building, get the bomb squad to the location, and difuse the bomb? Hell, a suicide bomber will pull up and detonate without waiting. Last time I checked I didn't see cops pulling over every rental truck they saw on the road, unless they were speeding of course.

And how are you going to get the explosives and materiel across? Oh,
I forgot, every terrorist in the world has a 1 kiloton 150 lb backpack
nuke he's carrying around.

You move only the terrorist across the border, you acquire the weapons/explosives inside the country. That is what the 9/11 scumbags did right?

Countermeasures have been put in place since 9/11. This is like someone arguing that we should scrap our Navy entirely after Pearl Harbour, because we failed to stop a complete out of the blue surprise attack.

No one ever said we should scrap law enforcement because it's not 100% perfect. Who told you that? Are those voices in your head acting up again?

And used guys with tens of thousands of dollars worth of pilot training, and years of said training, rather than the rent-a-thugs with $1

boxcutters that you wank off too.

Except they did. And thanks for proving my point. That it costs "tens of thousands of dollars" to train a pilot.

Good thing those Saudis are all a bunch of poor beggers. Too bad it cost even less to learn to drive a truck.

Again with the completely unsupported claims of personal experience. Hyperion, is that you?

I will personally vouch, to the extent one could knowing someone only through the internet, that Broomstick is a certified pilot. Some people here actually do worthwhile things with their lives.

I was unaware that the average human being had access to an AGS-30 Palyma automatic grenade launcher.

They don't, that's where improvisation comes from.

[Broomstick]

I can't seem to remember you. At all. You're completely forgettable.

Actually, my very first post on this forum was in a thread YOU started. You were wrong there, too, and made a glorious ass of yourself.

So why should I give a fuck about you?

I dunno... but since you continue to respond to my posts you must have SOME interest in me.

You're just another zero post counter making accusations about a well-respected member of this board.

If my post-count is on the low side it's because, as I said, I have a life beyond this message board. This also means that when I post here I often have something meaningful and grounded in reality to say - unlike some people I've seen around here.

And, again - "well respected" in no way supports any of your assertions. You can be well-respected AND spouting nonsense all at the same time. Not only is that an "appeal to authority" tactic, it one of the more egotistical manifestations of it.

I'll "respect" you when your statements make sense and reflect reality.

Hell, I've got hobbies more scary, impressive, and dangerous than you.

Hell, son, I've shit out logs that are scarier than you.

Is this where you do the James T. Kirk impersonation and yell "Double dumbass on you!"?

My, it is so touching to see such faith in the government still exists.

Son, if there's one branch of the government that doesn't fuck around, it's the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobbaco, and Firearms.

Yes, that's why their handling of the Branch Davidian compound in Waco was such a shining example of how to deal with a tense stand-off. Uh-huh.

No, they can't be made full auto in 30 seconds but you're a goddamned fool if you think it's impossible or even particularly difficult.

Yes, lets drill the fuck out of the reciever, the part that shall take the most stress when the gun fires, especially on full auto! Yes! how conductive for your personal safety!

If you're talking about terrorist who are actively seeking martyrdom I don't think personal hazard is going to be much of a concern, now is it? You're not thinking this through. The current crop of Genuine Bad Guys are not a bunch of pimple-faced masturbators sitting around a basement trying to one-up each other with armmament trivia. They are interested in killing people. Plain and simple.

Seriously, you're coming across as someone who would run up to a corpse with half its skull blown away and yell "Duuuuuuuude! C'mon, get up - that wasn't a real AK-47, just a home-modified "sporterized" model. Shit, it even blew up in the idiot's hand after he shot that guy after you - c'mon, that's not a REAL terrorist attack, he's just an amateur, so you aren't really dead --- oh, sorry man, I didn't mean to step on your spleen. Hey, how 'bout I drag your left leg back over here from where it landed in that bush and you pull yourself together and we go get a beer and some pizza, huh?"

You're quibbling over distinctions that in real life are irrelevant.

Actually. No, fucktard. In real life, the most kills are achieved in the first few seconds of any action, when people are shocked and standing around going WTF?

We are NOT talking about a military battle you fucking asswipe! We're talking about people killing UNARMED women, children, old people, and cripples. You don't need fucking high tech, hot shit, latest-thing weapons to do that you retard. All you need is to be marginally better armed than your victims. You can kill people with a fucking dremmel tool or steak knife or even a fucking piece of sharp flint. Do you get it now? ANY gun, even a cheapshit piece of crap trumps a cowering, unarmed victim backed into a corner with nowhere to go - even if the gun jams, you can still use it as a blunt object with which to fucking BEAT your victim to death.

You don't need the latest and the greatest to kill people. Low-tech and low-order explosives do the job quite nicely.

And require 10,000 pounds to get the effect that you can get from 100 lbs of plastique. The more shit you must lug around, the higher your detection chances go up. There's a reason semtex became the terrorist explosive of choice in the 1980s by Arab terrorists.

So fucking what? Yeah, semtex is great IF you can get it - if not, a rented panel truck and some ANFO works just as well. These guys don't care about elegant, high-tech, "efficient", or any other damn thing beyond accomplishing their goal - terror and death and destruction. YOU might care about "elegance" or "proper" weaponry - they don't.

Not unlikely at all - there are Muslim farmers in my area, some with a considerable history of dealing with agricultural supply stores.

I didn't know that motor oil was a farmable commodity.

How the fuck do you think they run the tractors and other machinery, you dipshit? Guess you know as little about farming as anything else. Farmers by fuel by the tankerload to run their machinery.

Or you could just steal it, I suppose. I mean, we're not talking about law-abiding people, are we?

Except that the theft of enough low grade explosives to do damage will raise red-flags and get police agencies swarming around in the area; not exactly what you want if you are a terrorist.

So don't steal all of it from one place at one time.

You know - I do find it reassuring that you seem incapable of figuring out how these things are actually done. At least you won't get into trouble if you DO ever leave that basement you hide out in.

And why not? I mean, Tim McVeigh did just that, didn't he? You're saying it's unlikely, but it's already happened.

And now everyone knows that large trucks behaving erattically = terrorist.

In what way did he behave "erratically"? He pulled up in front of a building, parked, got out and walked away. If that's "erratic" behavior then the parking lot of my local grocery store is full of terrorists.

If you want some real fun, try parking in front of any real target in a rental truck.

You know why that woman in Moscow last week was able to smuggle a bomb into a subway station and blow herself and a bunch of other people up? Because a person entering a subway is NOT inherently suspicious. likewise, a panel truck parked outside a building is NOT inherently suspicious. They're used to make legitimate pickups and deliveries all the damn time. That's why McVeigh's worked so well - a panel truck parked outside a building raised no suspicions. Do you know why car bombs work so well? Cars are such common objects they raise no suspicion, and a car bomb is so easily concealed that from the outside it's undetectable to the casual observer. Ditto for suicide bombers - especially in cold weather when everyone is wearing bulky clothes.

That's what's so fucking diabolical about the current terrorist problems we're facing - they hide among the commonplace and the mundane, they make EVERY person, EVERY vehicle, a suspicious person or object. They draw on people of every race and every ethnic group and every country. Reid - the "shoe bomber" - was a British citizen and not Arab at all. Several members of Al-Qaeda captured in Afganistan were American citizens by birth, and one was raised in California by white-bread Christian parents and converted in early adulthood. Jose Padilla - arrested in Chicago and accused of plotting to build and detonate a dirty bomb - is Hispanic. The DC sniper and his accomplice are of African descent, one from the US and one from the Carribean. These are NOT just Arabs, and NOT just Chechens. They can look like anyone, sound like anyone, and could be sitting next to you in a bus, in a theater, and yes, in your child's school. THAT's the horror we're currently facing.

Not difficult - same problem. Thousands of miles of unpatrolled unfenced border.

And how are you going to get the explosives and materiel across? Oh, I forgot, every terrorist in the world has a 1 kiloton 150 lb backpack nuke he's carrying around.

No, you fuckwad - you only need to get the human beings across the border, all the weapons you could possibly want can be obtained once you're inside the country.

And you don't need a nuke - a little radioactive cesium - such as is commonly found in various medical equipment and thus readily obtainable anywhere there is a community hospital to break into - would make a very nice dirty bomb. There have been several unfortunate incidents in South America involving medical equipment improperly disposed of and junk dealers/recyclers/scavengers coming across it an dying from exposure, so yes, the amount found in just one machine is more than sufficient to kill.

Oh, yeah, we were fucking well protected in September 2001, weren't we?

Countermeasures have been put in place since 9/11. This is like someone arguing that we should scrap our Navy entirely after Pearl Harbour, because we failed to stop a complete out of the blue surprise attack.

What counter-measures? We ask people to take off their shoes and we strip-search grandma? Yeah, that's fucking useful!

The only real improvement in airline security since 9/11 is the better cockpit door. That's really about it. Of course, that's not trivial - but much of the rest has been implemented half-assed and is more window-dressing than truly effective screening.

And used guys with tens of thousands of dollars worth of pilot training, and years of said training, rather than the rent-a-thugs with $1 boxcutters that you wank off too.

Uh, yeah - there are flight academies that, for $20-25k will train you in about six months to be a fully qualified commercial pilot, ready to apply for a job flying a jet. There is the detail that you have to keep up with the coursework, which might be difficult for someone who speaks English as a second language. Which might be why they didn't go that route.

Except they did. And thanks for proving my point. That it costs "tens of thousands of dollars" to train a pilot.

Except, you idiot, it doesn't take "tens of thousands of dollars" to train a pilot - average cost of a pilot's license is $6-8k these days. A little extra beyond that, focusing on the 757/767 utlizing information available to the general public at the time and there you go - about $15k, tops. That's not "tens of thousands of dollars". That's less than the cost of most new cars. In other words, a sum of money obtainable by the vast majority of working adults in the US.

Hell, in 2001 I had more training and fucking flight time than the 9/11 guys did - and my total training cost was under 10 grand (granted, I didn't buy simulator time on a full-motion 757 mock-up - now that's a little pricey)

Again with the completely unsupported claims of personal experience.

Then don't take my word for it - look under "flight training" in the yellow pages and call your nearest flight school. Ask them the average cost of earning a private pilot's license. Ask the FAA - you'll want the Flight Standards District Office or FSDO. Should be in the "government" section of your phone book. Look on the fucking Internet for "flight training" and "cost". Go ahead, I dare you.

I'd post links - but if you do your own research you'll trust the answers more. $6-8k - definitely under $10k.

Right... like picking up a couple box-cutters at the local store. That's real fucking sophisticated.

And spending tens of thousands of dollars and quite some time at a flight school so you don't end up nosediving a jet into the ground after seizing control, and manage to fly them hundreds of miles to their targets.

You know, in that first thread I posted in your revealed your ignorance of aviation, too. The hard part of flying is the take-off and landing - which is precisely why they seized the jets after take-off and initial climb. Anyone knowledgable enough to solo a Cessna knows enough to keep from "nose-diving" a jet if they take control while in cruise, this isn't rocket science. Flying hundreds of miles is NOTHING. In fact, student pilots are required to fly "hundreds of miles" solo prior to recieving permission to take their checkride and have the license issued. Which is my point - these guys didn't have to be fucking geniuses or aviation marvels to pull off the job. This is shit you learn in the first 10-20 hours of flight training - and you need 40 hours just to get the license.

Whether you have the balls to face it or not, executing a terrorist attack with mass casualties is not particularly difficult and well within the capability of the average human being if they were motivated to do such a thing.

I was unaware that the average human being had access to an AGS-30 Palyma automatic grenade launcher.

Why the fuck do you need a grenade launcher to execute a terrorist attack? You are making this out to be harder than it actually is. There are so many alternatives. Like ANFO and a panel van. Deer rifles fired from inside the trunk of a car at passers-by. Some old fashioned dynamite and a bag of bolts from a hardware store underneath a down jacket and wired to blow. Fucking pipe bombs made from match heads and cheap-ass fireworks mixed with some nails and assembled in a garage in suburbia. Some boxcutters carried past airport security.

Want to know something about all those examples? They have all actually been done. These aren't hypotheticals situations, they are historical facts.

YOU are obsessed with fancy guns. The terrorists are obsessed wtih fear and death. That's why you come across as getting your rocks off on weapons and the terrorists are actually succeeding at killing people.